RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Sunday 14 May 06 00:00 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Can anyone tell me whether the Scout (or possibly Scote) Hall at Shibden near Halifax still exists as a building.
I have come across it being mentioned as a possible baptism place for one of my ancestors...
Very best wishes,
Keith
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Hi Keith- Have a look at the following link for Malcolm Bulls calderdale companion, it sounds as if Scout Hall still exists.
http://members.aol.com/calderdale2/s.html
If your lucky Malcolm will be logged in later & if anyone can tell you it will be him!
All the best
Rose
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Thanks very much for this, Rose,
I hadn't realised it was such a big place, and my ancestor's baptism must have been a non-conformist one, or at least a private one - if the IGI entry is to be believed, in 1725.
Keith
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I just visited my Calderdale Companion to check the entry for Scout Hall, and discovered that AOL seems to have lost the photographs. I've corrected that now, so if you go to
http://members.aol.com/calderdale2/ph251.html
you can see just how big the place is.
If you discovered anything in your family tree about the place, please let me know.
Regards
Malcolm Bull
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Great now, Malcolm,
I was a little too polite - and generally admiring of your excellent site - to wonder what had happened to those pictures!
The remarkable thing is that someone has recently contacted me on Rootschat with news that he's spent the last many years researching my 5-times-great-grandfather the itinerant Methodist preacher James KERSHAW, who apparently (according to the IGI) was baptised at Scout Hall on St Patrick's Day 1725.
He has indeed researched in amazing depth, and some of his findings do contradict what at present appears in print about this individual, even in the Dictionary of National Biography. It's a "work in progress", and I'm still digesting some of the details before I supply him with as much as I know and might be relevant to his study on this branch of the KERSHAW family...
Very best wishes,
Keith
N.B. There are 2 entries on the IGI - one says a birth, the other a baptism, for the same date of 17-03-1725 for James KERSHAW
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Hi Kieth,
A little circumvent but my family are the Lightowlers who I think originated at the foot of Blackstone Edge near Littleborough. As you are probably aware the Kershaws and Lightowlers were linked by marriage somewhere back in the C16th. Now my particular branch of Lightowlers were living at Cold Harbour, Northowram in 1841. Cold Harbour is nobut a stones throw from Scout Hall so of course I wonder if there is a family link there. I must stress that the link back from Halifax to Littleborough has not yet been established.
Are you also aware that a window in the church at Littleborough bears the Armorial Bearings of Kershaw (Kyrkshalgh de Town House)and Lightowler (Lightollers de Lightollers) and also one of Newall of Town House which is quartered with Kyrkshalgh and Lightollers.
Best regards
Dave
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Dave,
This is all fascinating new ground for me. Still taking in all the details about possible KERSHAW links in the early part of the 18thC - never thought I'd get much further with it, until late last week and that posting on here. This seems to be my only northern piece of genealogy (very proud to realise that I'm not just a Southern Softie!), and I'm trying to get my bearings.
The Halifax area looks on the agenda for a visit some time this summer, certainly to have a look at that remarkable Scout Hall building.
It'll be a while before I can make any kind of confident comment about links between your family and mine, but I'm taking all this new exciting info in gradually...
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi again,
I'm still rather perplexed by the role of Scout Hall, as it's given as both birth/baptism place and place of death on the IGI for James KERSHAW, b.1725 and his father James KIRSHAW/KERSHAW b. "about 1697", d. 1733.
Looking at the present-day (2003) photos of this "Calendar Building" - (365 panes of glass, etc!) I'm wondering if it was some kind of seminary for prospective preachers at that time.
It certainly isn't the usual type of chapel that you'd normally associate with baptisms, etc.
Could the KERSHAW's conceivably have owned the place, or lived in part of it at that time?
I'm beginning to wonder too whether the IGI entries that indicate a marriage on 23-05-1722 between a James KERSHAW and a Martha SUGDEN (or LUGDEN!) in Halifax, and a baptism for a James KERSHAW on 27-02-1697 in Holdsworth - where was Holdsworth, exactly? - are reliable or of any relevance.
In other words, has anybody been tracing this KERSHAW in this location, and might know the answers to all/any of these questions...
Keith
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If he was born at Scout Hall, lived there and died there, is it not possible that he was just baptised at home, rather than the hall taking on any special permanent ecclesiaistical role? Perhaps he was ill, or they thought he might not survive and brought the clergyman to the house.
Regards
Malcolm Bull
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Malcolm,
Entirely possible, which makes it even more imperative that I try and find something about the function of Scout Hall - or who lived there - in the late 17th/early18thC...
Keith
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Keith:
The Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian Society [1946] had an article on Scout Hall - see
http://www.halifaxhistory.org.uk/
I'll see if I can find it when I'm next in Halifax Reference Library
Regards
Malcolm Bull
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Malcolm,
More grist to the mill, and I'd be very interested in details from that 1946 article if you can find it in Halifax Library.
Thanks very much again,
Keith
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I remembered the thread about Scout Hall when I came across it while searching for my Tempest ancestors. It appears to heve been in multiple occupation in 1841, as there are several pages of entries on the census, showing many different households. Same in 1851.
I wonder what happened to the original family?
Anne
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Anne,
That's all very interesting - I don't suppose anyone could have look on the 1851 Census (more information than the 1841) and give us some kind of idea about Scout Hall's function then...
Keith
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Hi Keith
I have had a look and they appear to be normal households with a range of ages and occupations. All except one or two shown as born in Northowram, but maybe a lazy enumerator!
It did occur to me that they might be living in estate cottages rather than the big house.
If you have access to Ancestry search for Barzilla Tempest born 1789 on the 1851 census and you can see for yourself. He is down as Barzellai in 1841 but it is the same person.
Anne
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Keith:
If you visit my Calderdale Companion website and take a look at the article entitled:
* Scout Hall, Shibden
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/calderdale2/s.html#s307
you'll see that I've expanded the material, based on the 1946 Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian Society.
If you follow all the links, you'll see that it had a fairly busy occupancy, and the 1946 article even notes the large number of names on the records and comments that the Hall probably had multiple occupancy in addition to all the servants (perhaps they were the born in Northowram people?).
If you want to add or elaborate this or any other entries, please email me directly
Regards
Malcolm Bull
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Malcolm,
Very impressed by all this updating of your website. I'm going to e-mail you now with details of recent information that has come to me - hopefully some of it will be of use in adding to and possibly emending your excellent Calderdale Companion. Some of the names and places mentioned may well already be familiar to you...
Keith
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Hi although your message is dated 2006 i am hoping that you get this information.
I am the owner of Scout Hall shibden Halifax. I am in the process of selling it at auction on the 10th September 2009 with eddisons Leeds. If I can be of any help or you wish to view the property please do not hesitate to contact me. pribsl@fsmail.net
Regards Paul Reid
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Hi Paul,
would it be to much to hope for that you have access to the title deeds and early ownerships of Scout Hall ?
Very interested
Dave
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Hi, Paul ( and welcome to Rootschat!), and everyone else who has contributed to this thread,
First of all the article about my 5-times-gt-grandfather James KERSHAW was published in the Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian Society Volume 16 for 2008: pages 41-66: "James Kershaw (1726-1797): the forgotten Halifax pioneer of Irish Methodism" by J.R.Wesley Weir.
And unfortunately I'm unable to get up to see Scout Hall before it is sold in September, but I'll PM you on here, Paul. This has been a remarkable journey into my family's Yorkshire roots...
Very best wishes,
keith
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Here it is on their auction catalogue:
http://www.eddisons.com/pages/auctioncatalogue/default.aspx?ShowLot=084&ForAuction=35&Page=4
keith
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Hi
Does anyone know if Scout hall, Shibden was sold at auction today?
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Fraid not, ive just seen this whilst reading the paper online
http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/Historic-1678-building-fails-to.5646557.jp
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Thanks for spotting that and putting it on here, Gemma,
And some pretty uncomplimentary remarks about the old building, too...
keith
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did you know the hall is still for sale? check it out on rightmove for pictures
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The location - next to Halifax council tip, must be a trifle off-putting
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not as much as the fact it has neither roof nor windows.......floors......walls.......doors
it's a magnificent building - its called a 'calendar house' evidently and was built by a silk trader.
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Hi, I am new to roots chat, but have been very interested in the thread which talks about scout hall. Ancestors of mine lived there for many years appearing on the 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 census there. The head of the family was James Freeman and he was a farmer of abut 40 acres, or so it says in the census. He was born in Northowram or Southowram depending on which census you look at. His wife was Mary Clarke. The interesting thing is that reading information about Scout Hall itself, I believe that it was owned by a family named Clarke at some time and that the Hall has connections with the silk industry. James Freeman's son Henry went to London where he was involved in the silk trade as a silk mercer in 1861 and a silk warehouseman in 1871. Now the question I have is, does anyone know of this family and whether or not they have links to the Clarke family who owned the Hall? I didn't get the impression that the family were well off, but farming 40 acres is no mean feat and he employed 2 labourers. Thanks, Anne W
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Hi Anne, welcome to Rootschat! Your James Freeman is the next household to my Barzilla Tempest at Scout Hall in 1861. James Freeman does seem a little different to most of the inhabitants of Scout Hall at the time, but I see from Malcolm Bull's Calderdale Companion that the Clarke family were tenants of Scout Hall, and later owners, until 1864.
I wasn't aware of the silk trade in Halifax and district, but Malcolm has some information about it, which no doubt you have seen.
Anne
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Thanks Anne, I would really like to prove or otherwise the link to the Clarkes who owned Scout Hall, but at the moment have drawn a blank. I have tried IGI but at the moment all I know about Mary Clarke is that her father was called Thomas who was probably born about 1780. If anyone has any info I woujld be glad to receive it! Many thanks, Anne
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Hi, Anne, and welcome to Rootschat!
And very remiss of me not to have responded to your posts earlier. This thread has been a bit on the back burner, and I must re-acquaint myself with all that's been contributed. I don't think I made any further progress with those really early references to 1725 and even before that, but I'll get focussed on it again now. Bit late where I am at the moment, so this will all have to be tomorrow now!
Very best wishes, keith
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Thanks Keith, look forward to any info you might have. Since my initial posting, I have found out that Mary Clarkes mother was also called Mary and that she married Thomas Clarke at the Square chapel in Halifax. I am beginning to think that she was not really connected to the Clarke family of Scout Hall, just wishful thinking. I have e-mailed the previous owner Paul Reid, but so far he has not replied. Anne
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Anne,
As far as I can see I have been unable to add anything to the entry for Scout Hall in Malcolm Bull's excellent Calderdale Companion. The full account of my 5-times-gt-grandfather's life was given by J R Wesley Weir in the Volume 16 (2008) edition of the Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian Society pp. 41-66. But it's fascinating to hear the stories of descendants of other families who have been associated with the place over the centuries. Such a pity that it appears to be now no more than a ruin - would need somebody with an interest in our heritage (and oodles of money to spend on it) to buy it and restore it to its former (rather eccentric) glory.
keith
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My uncle, Earl Brown Hill lived at Scout Hall during the twenties and thirties. I don´t know if he was also born there. I have a few old photos of the place which I picked up when my aunt died last year.
Russell Atkinson
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One of the most compact of the calendar houses was built in 1681 – Scout Hall in Yorkshire. This wonderful house – which would give Hardwick Hall a run for its money for the phrase ‘more glass than wall’ – was built for a local silk merchant, John Mitchell, by an unknown designer and includes 365 panes of glass and 52 doors. Considering the rarity of calendar houses, it’s interesting to consider how this concept suddenly appeared over 70 years after the first and several hundred miles north. Perhaps Mitchell’s trade had taken him south and he had been to, or heard of, Knole. Who knows? What we do know is that this grade-II* house has been on the ‘buildings at risk register‘ for many years and has been derelict since the 1980s.
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Hi, Russell (sorry it's a very belated greeting - haven't looked on here for a while ), and Leg1ndyoll, and welcome to Rootschat!
Thanks very much for that fascinating extra information on the old place. Such a pity that it is looking so forlorn these days. There also seem to be huge gaps in our knowledge about its past...
regards, keith
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There is a page on Facebook that may interest you http://www.facebook.com/groups/savescouthall/?notif_t=group_activity
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Leg1ndyoll,
Managed to log onto my daughter's account, and was very impressed by the conversations and pictures on there. Maybe Facebook does have its usefulness after all - and some of those internal pictures took a bit of courage to take with the building in such a precarious state!
many thanks, keith
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Glad to be of help Keith
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I am a direct descendant of the original family who built Scouts Hall, Shibden. I've just joined this site, have no idea how to use it or join this conversation. Anyone with this interest, I'd be quite happy to share what I know about my family home in Shibden. Thanks in advance. Jonathan
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Hi and welcome Jonathan.
Once you have made 3 posts here the personal message system is open to you.
Be aware though, posting personal e mail addresses is frowned upon.
[We don't want unsolicited e mails do we]
Regards Brian
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So, Jonathan, as Calverley Lad says, you need to go through the process of posting another two times on here before we can use the facility of the Personal Message, and that way exchange e-mail addresses in a more discreet way. Just a couple of short acknowledgements to both Calverley Lad and myself should do the trick.
Or you could expand a little on here. Whatever you do, I'm VERY excited about what you may have to tell us about Scote/Scout Hall and what exactly went on there in the early days, and why it should have been as a named place of baptism.
And welcome to Rootschat, by the way!
Regards, Keith
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Thank you for your replies, Brian and Keith. First of all I'll need to find notes from parents who visited Scout several years back, possibly as many as ten years ago. In those notes, composed as a short story of what they know about the history, is also a record of their experiences at the calendar house. The notes are put away some where, I'll need to find where I filed them. That might take a day or so. Also I was informed by a friend in Leeds that the house was up for sale about five years ago. I looked into purchasing it, it was £500,000 at the time when I got the quote from the realtor. That was for both the house and property. Due to the extensive fire damage, I was unable to make a reasonable offer. I will write again soon as I'm interested in why you are interested in this old home. All the best, Jonathan Lowe.
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Jonathan,
Looking forward to hearing from you again soon...and I think that we have all posted on this thread our own particular reasons for being interested in this fascinating building, at one time or another since I started the thread all of nearly 8 years ago. And look at the number of times it has been viewed in the meantime, climbing up to the twelve thousand mark!
Regards, keith
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Keith,
The first thing you might want to know us that my ancestors name was Stancliffe, she was married to Mitchell, forgetting flirts name, maybe John? At any rate he was a merchant and eventually went mad and supposedly jumped from the top of the nearby quarry and died sometime later. He in fact was crazy for sometime. I've also found out that my mother has some hand written history from a Mr. Chew who showed Scout Hall to my parents when they visited. The wife, Stancliffe, later moved to America to the state of Connecticut. I'll probably pick up the notes from my parents this weekend. Also my mother contributed to a book outlining the entire genealogy of the Stancliffe family. I don't know if you would be interested in getting a copy of that. I'm sure I could find out where a copy might be obtained. Also the original land was obtained very early from a grant from King Charles I, I'll need to check that, but these are the sort of details I can easily obtain.
Jon Lowe
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Hi Jonathan,
I'm still getting notifications about this thread and I find it very interesting stuff. I'm always on the lookout for connections to my tree so when you mentioned a Mr Chew my ears pricked up; I have Chews from Southowram married to my Lightowlers.
I also wonder if there is a connection between the Stancliffes and the Listers of Shibden hall?
Dave
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I should be interested to know the name of the Stancliffe who married John Mitchell. I have his wife as the 15-year-old Mary Wilton whom he married in 1678. Perhaps Ms Stancliffe was an earlier wife of Mr Mitchell. Do you know her full name / dates / parents or other details?
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I will pick up the documents in the next day or so. It will contain the complete history/genealogy of the Stancliffes back to Scout Hall and all the subsequent descendants down to myself and my children. As I mentioned, my mother worked with a descendant of Mitchell. It is a huge and compete text, published within the past 20 years or so. I will also get Mr. Chews notes and find out who he is and how he fits into this.
Also a record of the land grant from King Charles, which I believe was granted to a Stancliffe. I'll have the first names of all. It's my understanding that Mitchell married a Stancliffe and the house was built on the land that belonged to her (Stancliffe). When I pickup these documents I believe that much of this will come together and make sense. All of these records in my mothers possession are well documented and should be fairly accurate, hopefully. My mother lives 15 minutes from me, so it will be easy to get, I just have been too busy to stop by. I'll get it as soon as possible. I could have never imagined this info would be of such interest. My mother is née Stancliffe, which makes us direct descendants.
Jonathan
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I'll also get the contact info for Mitchell, who wrote the bulk of the genealogy. That should be very helpful. It should be very easy to contact him, as my mother has met him and they had a lot of correspondence as well.
Jonathan.
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Thus far, I've been writing from memory. The documents should shed much light and clear up many of your questions. It also may raise many new questions.
Jon
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Correction: the genealogy is written by Robert Stancliffe, my mothers distant cousin here in the U.S.
It is in fairly wide distribution here. It is mainly on the American side of the family.
Sorry for the error.
Jon
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I just checked with my mother about Mr. Chew. Mr. Chew was living on the Scout Hall property and had a collection of notes about the history if the property. I do not believe he was a relative. I will get a copy of the notes he gave to my parents when they visited the property. Strangely, my parents did know know where the property was, they found it on an old map, 1600s, when they visited Shibden Hall. I myself have never been to the U.K. At all. Maybe I should schedule a trip & bring my three children.
Jon
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Jonathan,
This all sounds very exciting, looking forward to all these very early records, particularly. You can of course now communicate via PM (Personal Message, on your Profile) to any one of us, if you want, and therefore you can utilize e-mail addresses, and exchange anything you might feel might be a little too personal to be shown on here.
But it would certainly round things nicely off if the details of so far undiscovered documents could be aired on this thread, eight years on from its inception!
keith
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Hi Keith, I can't imagine anything I can obtain might be too personal. It took Robert Stancliffe many many years to compile the Stancliffe line from Shibden to New England all the way down to my children. It's all public info as far as I am concerned. What will be of more interest to you of course is the info that Mr. Chew passed on which is specific to the UK side. I will do my best to pick those papers up today. Is it possible that Chew is still alive?
The reason I searched for a site such as this was I am interested in knowing more about my family history and it's relationship to Scout Hall. The internet opens up so many possibilities and makes this world so much smaller. The best way to get the info to you will be for me to just scan it and email it all at once, sound like the best way?
Jon
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Keith... I would not mind if you shared the new info on this site, as opposed to me doing it. You've invested your time here, I'd prefer that you post it however you wish. I'll email it to you as soon as I can.
Jon
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Jonathan,
I've now PM-ed you…
keith
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Keith,
Latest update, snowed in with artic blast of air. It seems some force in the universe is wanting to hold this up. Not actually, but seems that way lately. Just look at the weather here in the NE part of the U.S., it's crazy cold and piles of drifted snow.
Jonathan
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Jonathan,
I hope you've got plenty of shovels handy…
keith
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Scout Hall does still exist,just about. it is part of Shibden Hall Estate in Halifax.It does exist and there is an attempt to refurbish it by the owners. I believe there were 3 farmhouses on the estate.
T. :)
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I, also, am very interested to see any info about Scout Hall - in part because it is mentioned in the Coley Registers and in part because I seem to have ancestors from the area.
Just wanted to post to ensure I get notification about any info on this place
Cocksie
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think i found some photos of it on flickr but if not try halifax reference library who may have some or be able to put you in touch with where you could find pictures of scout hall.
T.
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Undertaker,
I think there was a link to some photos earlier on this thread, it might have been via Malcolm Bull's Caderdale Companion.
Dave
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Is it findable using "GoogleEarth"? I've managed to chase up a lot of family houses and areas through that, to give me a pretty good idea of what they're like.
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Hello Keith and all,
I've obtained the notes and will begin to scan. Keith I'll send directly to your email. It might take some time, but I hope it's helpful.
Yours,
Jonathan Lowe PhD
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From Jonathan Lowe; related to Mitchell, Stancliffe and possibly you all.
Cheers.
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Jonathan,
Looking forward to seeing it all when it appears in my inbox!
Hope the severe weather where you are has abated somewhat now...
keith
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Snowing again, severe weather this winter. I am taking the type written notes to an office store tonight. I'll have them scan into an email, or DVD. Should be complete tomorrow. I also picked up a copy of the Stancliffe family history book. I'll review it to see if it might be of any interest to you. It might, but I'm somewhat unsure.
The notes are too much for me to scan on my little print/scanner. So off to the office store, Staples. I'll contact you when I have the DVD. I'm very interested in reading them myself because I have not looked at them until just now. Cheers.
Jonathan Lowe
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Hello Keith and Malcolm,
I sent 133 page PDF file to both of your email addresses. Please let me know that you could open them. I have not read much of this information. I still need to receive one more set of documents that will follow.
I found that Mr. Chew lived on the Shibden, Scout Hall property, but not an owner nor relative. He had a small house on the far edge of the property. He may no longer reside there. The first 11 pages are typed by my mother, Joann Lowe, née Stancliffe transcribed from Heywoods history selectively by Mr. Chew. Chew may no longer be alive, I have no idea about him, but that is the Chew connection. I'll look forward to your response.
Jon
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Jonathan,
Have just opened my e-mail account, and good job you posted on here to tell us to expect those files, for I've just rescued them from my junk folder. I usually delete everything I find there without opening them, so that was fortunate! Will have a good look now and come back to you later with my comments.
Regards, keith
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Good news Keith.
Malcolm had a problem opening the PDF. I re-sent it to him. I'm very anxious to know what parts of those documents may shed new light on this topic. Especially because Scout Hall is my ancestral home. I will make plans to come and visit as I and my children are looking forward to see it. Most likely will be at Scout early to late summer. Do you live close by
Jon
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Jonathan,
I think Malcolm could tell you more about what could now be added to his knowledge of Scout Hall in his Calderdale Companion - I do hope he has been able to successfully open your labour of love now. I imagine he probably lives closer than I do to Shibden - I'm in Cambridge, quite a way away.
Still reading through it all, amazing details, will re-contact you once I've finished it. My 5-times-gt-grandfather James Kershaw's baptism place being given as Scout Hall in the 1720's is what started this thread in the first place. He gets mentioned in John Wesley's journals in the 1760's, traveling with the great man up to Scotland, on horseback I presume…
keith
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Keith,
Malcolm did open it just now. I need to go back and read all the posts from the beginning to get a grasp of all this as I've been too busy with other things to really absorb any of it. I plan to continue to search for more info as I am going to dedicate much time to this. As a research scientist I am very good at finding things, if more is out there I will find it. Cambridge isn't so far. Nothing is very far in. The UK. I used to work between NYC and Los Angeles, flying back and forth every two weeks. That my friend, is far!
Cheers, Jon
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Keith, is there a quick way for me to download all of the posts from the past 8 years? It would be most helpful. Thanks,
Jon
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Jon,
Someone with a better technical knowledge than I might be able to tell you if it's possible to download a thread. I usually, if I want to refer to a thread, click the "Print" icon at the top, and it reduces the script/layout to make it more manageable when you then print it off - saves on paper and ink!
keith
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Keith,
Thanks, but it sounds like a task for one of my kids.
Jon
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Jon,
you might get an answer from the technical help forum -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=285.0
Dave
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Thanks Dave.
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Keith/Malcolm
Anything of interest in the files I sent?
Let me know, I'm anxious to know.
Jon
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Jon,
I'll PM you...
keith
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Hello,
I'm new to the group!
OK so down to my question.
I'm a local photographer and drone flyer but is there a chance with permission to get inside Scout Hall. I have photographed many old places but this looks a very interesting building outside so would look just as impressive inside. It would be great to take some very high quality images?