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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: Jang on Saturday 20 May 06 06:56 BST (UK)
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Could SKS check the 1841 census for Farnham for John Eridge please? I'm trying to find a Kneller family living next door.
The info I have says that in 1835 "the clues led Edwards to Farnham which is adjacent to Rusthall, where he spoke to John Eridge who lived next door to a Mrs Kneller, Samuel Walters’ sister."
I'm trying to identify Mrs Kneller and family. :-)
Many thanks
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Ahhh, a treasure hunt :D but I'm a bit confused. I found Farnham's in Dorset, Wilts, Essex, Herts, hants, Surrey, Suffolk & Yorkshire & Rusthall in Kent & Sussex. I also think there is a Farnham in Kent but can't confirm that. I was just wondering if you had the right county. Any more clues?
jane
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Hi Jane,
I'm confused too. I found Rusthall in Kent but the only Farnham I could find that I thought was close by (?) was in Surrey. If there's one in Kent, then that's the one I want.
I wish it was a treasure hunt :-) The clues referred to the hunt for Samuel Walters from Withyham in Sussex - he'd stolen over 1000 holly sticks from the Earl de la Warr's estate. The clever detective had tracked him down to his sister's place in Farnham "adjacent to Rusthall" where John Eldridge "saw three men putting some bundles of holly sticks into Mrs Kneller’s garden. They trimmed them and re-tied them into bundles."
It's Samuel's sister I'm trying to find out about.
Jan
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Hi jan,
Ummm...... Rusthall is a little west of Tunbridge Wells, Kent.
Withyham is 5.76 miles SW of Rusthall just inside the Kent/Sussex border. Farnham is way over in West Surrey close to the Hants border in fact from Rusthall to Farnham is 64.57 miles. I can't see where Farnham, 'adjacent to Rusthall' comes in ??? When I look ar Rusthall on the map I can't see a Farnham anywhere near it & there's no Farnham in Sussex.
Looking for some more on Samuel I found the following likely marriage on the Sussex Marriage Index,
First the licence details,
Archdeaconry of Lewes Marriage Licence, 28 Jan 1829:
Samuel WALTER, bach 21+ brickmaker Rotherfield
Sophia RICHARDSON, sp 21+ Mayfield
Extra Information: SRS 26
Then the marriage. Rotherfield is adjacent to Withyham,
Rotherfield, East Sussex, 29 Jan 1829:
Samuel WALTER, bach otp (lic)
Sophia RICHARDSON, sp Mayfield
Witness wits: Henry BEDWELL; John WOOD
I've looked on the Place names site http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/ and can't find Farnham in Kent.
I've looked on the Sussex & Surrey marriage indexes & Pallots for a female Walters' to a male Kneller marriage...zilch. Also a quick look at FreeBMD with no luck :(
Where is this Earl's estate?
Nothing is forth coming for any of the names on the 1841 census, but that's because we've got so little information & there are so many counties involved. My only bit of luck was,
1841 - Wadhurst (next to Rotherfield) HO107/1116/9/15/4
Samuel Walter 38 ag lab
Sophia 32
Sarah 11
William 10
All born Sussex which ties-in with that marriage.
Jane
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Hi Jane,
Thanks for the detective work :-) Looks like I'm in the wrong county. The Samuel Walters marriage you found is another Samuel Walters - it misled me for quite a while as my Samuel was also a brickmaker. (I still suspect they were related somehow.) He married Ann Luxford and had a son Frederick born ca 1835 in Kent before he was transported in 1836.
The only info I have about the Earl's estate was that the crime took place at Fishers Gate on the Buckhurst Estate - I think it was west of Withyham as "William Creasey, keeper of the Turnpike Gate at Groombridge said, "On Sunday night of 29 November I let a cart through the gate; it was going to Withyham. The cart was then empty. The same evening about 9 o’ clock the same cart came through again – it was coming from Withyham. It was then loaded with a great many holly sticks."
I was hoping John Eridge was still living at Farnham. I found a couple living in Kent in the ancestry index - one born ca 1821 the other born ca 1801 - both spelt Erridge - and was hoping one was living at Farnham or Rusthall.
Best wishes
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Thought you might be interested in this link about the Buckhurst Estate at Withyham & the Earls of de la Warr, the Sackville family.
http://www.villagenet.co.uk/ashdownforest/villages/withyham.php
Groombridge is on the road between Rusthall & Withyham. If Samuel was 'from Withyham', it looks like he made his way to Rusthall, picked up the empty cart, went back to Withyham, loaded up the holly sticks & returned to Rusthall where he off-loaded them in his sisters garden. Did the transportation order have an age on it for Samuel? It looks like he lived in Kent as his son was born there. Do you have a date for this incident? & a date & place for his marriage?
I was wondering what happened to poor Ann & Frederick :( I did find an Ann Walter age 30 in Tonbridge workhouse but no sign of Frederick,
Jane
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Hi Jane,
Thanks for the link about the Buckhurst Estate - now I know for sure it was at Withyham. Samuel borrowed the cart from a Mr King, a corn dealer of Tunbridge Wells and the horse from John Roots, a carrier of Tunbridge Wells. Roots took the sticks to Old Change in London where they were sold to persons unknown.
Samuel was born 20 Jan 1808 Tunbridge Wells Kent and baptised 6 Mar 1808 Frant Sussex, the son of Samuel Walters and Rebecca Hoade.
Thanks for finding Ann Walter in the workhouse - that would fit, I think. Son Frederick later came to Australia in 1860 (perhaps after his mother died?) with his wife Catherine Anastasia Falvay and daughter Mary Ann born about 1858 in Surrey (that from the passenger list) - maybe I am in the right county after all :-)
Samuel is a fascinating character - he went on to marry three more times and have 13 children, the last when he was 64! He acquired a lot of land in Sydney and died a wealthy man.
Regards
Jan
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What a fascinating story, Jan. You've done well to have put it all together :) And good for Samuel to have found success in Oz!
This is the marriage of his parents. I must say everyone moved around alot in that family...must have had itchy feet,
Herstmonceux, East Sussex, 28 Apr 1805:
Samuel WALTER
Rebecca HOAD
I can't be sure if it's Ann, I'll try & find her & Frederick on the 1851 later today. Just need to find the marriage of his sister to complete the circle!
Jane
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Thanks for the marriage, Jane. Interesting to see his surname was Walter - the 's' must have been added in Australia. Frederick was listed as Walter on the passenger list but was Walters when he died. It must have been hard on Ann being left behind with a baby. I was pleased when I found that Frederick had finally joined his father in Australia.
I'd love to be able to find Mrs Kneller - I'll try the Kent board to see if someone can locate John Eridge.
Best wishes
Jan
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Hi Jan,
searched hi & low through the 1851 for Ann & Frederick with no luck :(
Have you see the familysearch IGI? Children attributed to Samuel & Rebecca Walter,
Rebecca 1816 Penshurst Kent
Sophy 1820 ditto
Elizabeth 1810 Speldhurst Kent
Samuel 1808 cr. Frant Sussex.
I would imagine there were other children but not on the IGI. Any of the 3 daughters could have married a KNELLER. Also when searching take into account that the Kneller marriage could be her second marriage so she would have married in the name of her first marriage.
I think this might be the family of Frederick's wife....Irish in origin!
1851 - St. Botolph - Bishopgate, Middlesex. HO107/1524/444/36
Dennis FALVEY 60 lab Ireland
Ann 49 ditto
CATHERINE 17 Bookfolder b. Bishopgate
Mary 15 Housemaid ditto
John 13 Errand boy ditto
Timothy 9 ditto
Good luck with your search,
jane
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Hi Jane,
You are brilliant! Thanks for the births - I don't know why I hadn't found those before. I put them into the IGI looking for marriages and up popped:
Elizabeth Walters to Thomas NELLER on 12 Feb 1829 Speldhurst, Kent, England
Fantastic! No wonder I couldn't find it - didn't think of the alternative spelling.
Thanks also for finding Catherine Falvey - definitely the right family, I'd say. I wonder what a bookfolder did.
I'm off to the Kent board to find the NELLERS - thanks so much for all your help. :-)
Best wishes
Jan
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BRILLIANT ;D How come I missed that marriage ??? I put in Elizabeth Walters...curious.
Happy Hunting,
jane
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Hi Jane,
Thanks for the link about the Buckhurst Estate - now I know for sure it was at Withyham. Samuel borrowed the cart from a Mr King, a corn dealer of Tunbridge Wells and the horse from John Roots, a carrier of Tunbridge Wells. Roots took the sticks to Old Change in London where they were sold to persons unknown.
Samuel was born 20 Jan 1808 Tunbridge Wells Kent and baptised 6 Mar 1808 Frant Sussex, the son of Samuel Walters and Rebecca Hoade.
Thanks for finding Ann Walter in the workhouse - that would fit, I think. Son Frederick later came to Australia in 1860 (perhaps after his mother died?) with his wife Catherine Anastasia Falvay and daughter Mary Ann born about 1858 in Surrey (that from the passenger list) - maybe I am in the right county after all :-)
Samuel is a fascinating character - he went on to marry three more times and have 13 children, the last when he was 64! He acquired a lot of land in Sydney and died a wealthy man.
Regards
Jan
Hi Jan
I am one of Samuel Walters' great-great-grandsons, and have started the journey of compiling our Australian heritage based upon Samuel's transportation in 1836. It is truly a fascinating story and with his 4 wives and 14 (known) children, his tree is extremely large and widespread.
At this moment I am quite unfamiliar with this website, but when I found this thread I became excited to read the details within. I am obviously extremely keen to talk with you and others about Samuel's English roots, as well as those we have here in Australia.
Questions like.... did Samuel have other siblings other than the 3 girls named in this thread? Was Frederick Samuel's only child with Ann? And what became of Ann, his "deserted" wife? Is there any other information about Samuel for the 27 years he lived in England before he was transported?
I hope this reply reaches you Jan, as I really look forward to a response, or for that matter a response by any other forum members that wish to exchange information.
Until then, thank you.
Regards
Rob
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Hi Rob,
So pleased to see your post. Samuel is indeed a fascinating character and a great example of a convict who made good. Yes, Samuel also had 3 brothers - Job bapt 22 March 1818 Penshurst, William bapt 6 Oct 1822 Penshurst and Robert bapt 1 Jan 1826 Speldhurst.
Re Ann Luxford, I'm pretty sure she remarried to John Harris on 26 Dec 1859 in St Paul, Bermondsey. One of the witnesses was Frederick Walter who I think was her nephew :-) She was described as a widow, father William Luxford, farmer. I don't know of any other children but that's not to say there weren't any :-)
I don't have any info about Samuel's early life ... yet. There's always new info to discover. It's been quite a while since I looked at this family - thanks for reawakening my interest.
Which branch do you descend from? My husband is descended from Samuel and Martha's son, William Samuel Walters.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jan
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Hi Rob,
Which branch do you descend from? My husband is descended from Samuel and Martha's son, William Samuel Walters.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Jan
Hi Jan
Our line is from Samuel's 2nd Australian wife, Jane Curran, from the Robert Walters - Sarah Jane Hayne lineage.
I have over 1900 names in my ever expanding tree and it is far, far from complete. Some branches are obviously much easier to complete than others, and other branches still contain very little detail at all.
But I'm working on it......
Regards
Rob