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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: rayjoan on Monday 03 July 06 18:09 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone could help me with my brick wall? My 3-great-grandfather was James Allen, born in Reading, BRK about 1792, according to the 1851 Census for Reading St. Giles (Ref HO107, 1692, Folio 559, page 26).
His wife is "Sarah" and the census shows 2 children and a nephew living with them. They also have a daughter named Emma (b. about 1811-1816) who married first to a James Blackall in 1834 at Henley, Oxford (he died in 1838)., with whom she had two children. She married second to my 2-great-grandfather, Charles Woods, in 1840 at Land End, Bucks.
James would only be about 20 when Emma was born. I am wondering if anyone can find Emma in church records and if there is any information about her parents and/or her birth date. I have Emma's death certificate where her age at time of death is given as 79 but various ages were given in all the censuses.
Also......is there any record of a marriage for James and Sarah and does it show Sarah's maiden name?
Any help would be so much appreciated. I have exhausted all of my resources.
Joan
New Brunswick, Canada.
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Hi Joan
If the 1851 census is correct, Sarah was born in Pangbourne between say 1799 and 1801. If 1800 is correct she is Sarah Emmott born 16 mar. If she was born in 1799 she is Cray or Dod, and if in 1801 she is Broadway or Champ. All of this information is taken from the IGI.
Pangbourne is the first place I would check for Sarah's marriage. Unfortunately this would not be in the IGI. Berks Records Office could check this - it should cost about £10.
It is difficult to reconcile your dates and events. If Sarah was born in 1800, it is very very unlikely that Emma was born before 1817. She almost certainly was not baptized in Reading and if in Pangbourne it would not appear in the IGI; I do not think she was born in Henley, although the marriage entry states of this parish. If born after 1817, her age for marrying in 1834 becomes problematic.
I think to progress you need to obtain a copy of the entry in the PR for the 1834 marriage - you could approach Oxford FHS, or you need to buy the marriage certificate for the 1840 marriage.
I hope this is more of a help than a hinderance
Colin
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Just to confuse the issue a little -
In the 1841 census:
HO107/36/12 Folio 4 Page 3
Reading St Mary
Alfred Street
James ALLEN, 55, Carpenter, born in county
Sarah ALLEN, 60, , not born in county
There is no one else in the household.
As Sarah is shown born in Pangbourne in 1851, I wonder whether she is born in either Pangbourne or Whitchurch as these straddle the Thames and the county boundary ??
If this is the right couple - where is Elizabeth in 1841 ??
Regards
Harry
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Thank you to Colin and Harry for your prompt replies and very good suggestions. They sent me on a further search.
Re-checking Emma's death certificate (it is the correct one considering the attendant at death was her daughter-in-law, of whose marriage I have proven), and the age I thought read "79" is actually "70"!! I hadn't noticed it before. She died in 1890. Her husband lived on until 1895 but was, apparently, senile. So, that makes Emma's birth closer to 1820......or possibly the 1816 I thought it to be in the first place, according to ages given on the censuses throughout the years. It appears she was a few years older than her husband, Charles. The age of 70 at death may have been a close guess by the daughter-in-law?
I was very kindly given the information for the 1834 marriage by a gentleman from the Oxford Registry Office, along with the information about Emma's two children with James Blackall. It was he who set me on the path that my Charles had married a widow. I found their marriage certificate (dated 1840) through my local FHC. They are both listed "of this parish" and she is described as Emma Blackall, widow. I have one son's birth certificate (my great-grandfather) and she is listed as "Emma Woods, previously Allen".
Frustratingly, her marriage certificate says her father is "James" and there is no mother's name.
I have seen all the "Sarah"s on the IGI who could possibly be James' wife. One of them, Sarah Champ, married a James Allen in 1831 and Sarah Rolfe married a James Allen in 1833. Sarah Emmett is the most likely one, of course, because of her place of birth but there is no marriage showing on the IGI.
Unless Sarah was James' second wife, the 1831 and 1833 dates are not feasible but the second marriage is certainly possible.
To answer the question, "where is Elizabeth in 1841", I'm not sure the James and Sarah shown in the 1841 Census as ages 55 and 60 would be the correct couple. They were shown as 59 and 51 in 1851. However, where are all of them in 1841?
This genealogy is great fun but so puzzling!
Joan.
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Thank you for detailed exposition of the "James Allen brickwall". It was fascinating to see how many avenues you have explored.
A major problem so far, is that vital marriages and baptisms may have been in Pangbourne, but the IGI has no entries after 1812 for baptisms and 1753 for marriages. There are lots of entries for Allen in Pangbourne and I suspect that it could be the home village of James' mother. If I were in your position, I would borrow the Pangbourne PR on film at my FHC. If you look it up in the LDS catalogue, the spelling is Pangbourn.
Your thoughts on Sarah being the second wife of James seem entirely logical and perhaps this better fits the facts by explaining the age of Elizabeth. I can probably eliminate Sarah Champ as her marriage was put into the IGI by a church member but it does not appear in the extracted records by LDS in the IGI. Sarah Rolfe looks interesting, especially if you could find her first marriage in Pangbourne.
I hope you do not mind me playing 'devil's advocate' but I did have a problem with Emma's age. If she was born in 1820 or even after 1816, it is very unlikely this is the Emma that was married in Henley. However, if Sarah is a second wife, her proposed birth in 1800 ceases to be an issue with respect to Emma's age. Emma's mother could then be a similar age to James, and Emma could easily have been born between 1812 and 1816. It seems to me that Emma's age on the marriage certificate in 1834 could be crucial, if it is 18 or over Sarah is the second wife.
I think I come back to the view that the Pangbourne PR could answer all your queries.
Happy hunting,
Colin
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Hello Colin:
Thanks so much for your input. First of all, I have a list of Pangbourne (and while I was at it -- St. Giles) microfiches I am going to request from my FHC. The centre we have is located over 60 miles away and is only open on Thursdays and Saturdays. I have a phone number of an administrator there and she has given me permission to call her for requests so I needn't make an unnecessary trip. I shall contact her tomorrow.
When the indices come, I'll need to request the documents but I'll investigate all the Sarahs of the time. I shall also look up the name WOODS along with ALLEN as they are both of interest to me in the same area.
I certainly do not mind you playing devil's advocate. It keeps me on my toes and thinking ahead!
As for the Emma married in Henley.......I am 100% certain she is "my" Emma. Here is my detective work on the subject.
My great-grandfather, William Woods, was born at Bermondsey in May, 1847. His parents are listed as "Charles Woods and Emma Woods (formerly Allen)".
This was what set me on the search for Emma Allen. I could find absolutely nothing about where she married a Charles Woods. I was lost at that point. To my rescue came a member of the Oxford Family History Society. He suggested I might want to broaden my scope as he had a record of an Emma Allen marrying James Blackall in 1834 at Henley. He also gave me the information about their two children. I found out, consequently, that James Blackall died in 1838.
Now......armed with that information and hoping against hope, I searched for a marriage between a Charles Woods and an Emma Blackall. I found one on the IGI and it did set me back a bit as it was recorded at Lane End, Bucks. (By the way....The marriage is now recorded on the FreeBMD (Wycombe) in the Mar 1840 quarter but with her name spelled incorrectly (Blockall). I've sent in a correction, but it hasn't been done.)
I requested the microfilm from the FHC here and photocopied the original document. It shows "Charles Woods, Batchelor (sic) of this Parish and Emma Blackhall (the spellings seem to differ a lot), widow of this Parish, married by banns, 17 February 1840. It shows Charles as a "Tanner" which he most certainly was and it shows their fathers as James Woods, Gardiner and James Allen, Labourer, both professions which show on all the censuses.
On each census, though, it shows Emma to be some 7 or 8 years older than Charles. That's where my dilemma lays with respect to her age. It is possible that James Allen was 19+ when Emma was born (if it were 1811+) and Emma may have a different mother than James' other children. If I could find out Emma's mother's name (supposing it is not Sarah), I may be onto another run! I am hoping the fiches I'm about to order will give me Emma's birth certificate or birth information.
You may very well be right that the Pangbourne PRs will answer some of my questions. I shall let you know if they do!! Meanwhile, if you have any other suggestions, please do let me know.
Thanks so much for your help.
Joan.
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Hi Joan
I think you need to check what you are about to order from FHC. Microfiche records are usually a printout of what is already on the IGI. I suspect you are about to order records 6904239 and 6908448 which are the IGI baptisms and marriages respectively.
Original parish records are always on film. In the case of Pangbourne the records are spread over several films. The film that carries on with dates immediately after the IGI entries is FHL British Film 1040561 and this is the one you need.
I live 3 miles away fro my FHC and I am quite prepared to take long shots. But I do appreciate, living 60 miles from yours, it is essential for you to get it right.
The above film would amongst other things cover the birth of Emma and the marriage of James. I would also to be looking to see if a Sarah married to become Sarah Rolfe.
Best wishes,
Colin
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Hello Colin:
Thanks so much for your information about the microfiche records. I didn't know that. No one has ever explained that to me before. I shall not order any of the records I'd intended to order and I shall order film #1040561.
I wonder why they don't have that information on the IGI if they have this film? Is there some reason for that, do you know?
Would it be feasible for me to also order the previous number, 1040560? Or would that be necessary?
I thank you so much for going to the trouble of looking this up for me. I shall call my contact tomorrow and ask her to order the film for me.
I'll take your advice about Sarah Rolfe as well. I now have several names in my head and shall carefully check them all. You are right that I had better get it right the first time because of the distant to travel and the high prices of fuel!
Joan.
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I can probably eliminate Sarah Champ as her marriage was put into the IGI by a church member but it does not appear in the extracted records by LDS in the IGI.
Sometimes church members can be more thorough than the extractor - as in this case. I would definitely not eliminate Sarah Champ.
You should also check the PRs for the Sarah Rolfe marriage - I think you'll find that she was a widow and that James Allen may also have been a widower. Which could complicate things even further..... However they did marry by licence so you may get aditional information from that (if you can find it).
The marriage is now recorded on the FreeBMD (Wycombe) in the Mar 1840 quarter but with her name spelled incorrectly (Blockall). I've sent in a correction, but it hasn't been done.
Nor will it be done. FreeBMD aims to be a faithful transcript of the GRO Index (easily checked now the index is free at Ancestry). In this instance FreeBMD is right - the index entry is for BLOCKALL. So the error has crept into the system before the index was compiled or during its compilation. Either way FreeBMD are always keen to ask people not to submit errors in the index, only in their transcipt. As they say 'FreeBMD transcribes EXACTLY what is in the GRO Index. If the error is in the Index, we will NOT be able to apply your correction.'
What you should do is add what they call a postem (no idea where that word comes from) which allows you to add a note to the entry explaining your findings. Sadly you cannot add any form of entry that would help some future researcher trying to find a BLACKALL and not thinking to check the BLOCKALL spelling.
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Hi Joan
Glad you got my last in time.
Just a quick note before as I go to bed.
Film 1040561 is the PR up to 1812 for births and 1753 for marriages, and this is what has been extracted into the IGI, so you have seen it. However, what 'Newbury' says is also true and the extractor[transcriber] can miss entries in the PR.
In your case it is a question of what time you have. I presume it will cost you about £4 to hire a film for a month. It may be worth gambling and getting both films and then hope you can get through both of them in one visit.
I have a few other comments for later in the day.
Best wishes
Colin
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Hi Joan
Newbury's intervention has proved very useful, because I have re-examined the Sarah Champ record and, because it gives an exact date [rather than about 1831 which would be a guess], we can assume that the church member has direct knowledge or has seen the entry in the PR.
There is strong circumstantial evidence to show that the marriage to Sarah Champ on 28 Aug 1831 was James' second marriage. There seem to be three children of this marriage in St. Giles:- John born 23 Oct 1831, Henry Charles 13 Oct 1833 and, "the clincher", Elizabeth 14 Feb 1836. [it would good to confirm that this is the Sarah of Pangbourne 1801 and your James - I am sure there must be a RootsChatter who can look it up for you, otherwise on the BRO website you will find a look-up service costing about £10 for a single item]
I had been working on the assumption that James had been married twice and found two possibilities in the IGI for his first wife. I looked for children of James in St. Giles between 1810 and 1820, because these could be Emma's brothers and sisters, and came up with two families.
There is James and Tabitha Allen with children Amy 1811, James 1814 and George 1819, and there is James and Mary Allen with a daughter Mary 1817. Neither marriage appears in the IGI. These seem two avenues to pursue for Emma's mother.
I understand your surprise at Emma moving from Henley to Lane End, but it is quite viable. I live about 15 miles from Henley [my great gandmother was born Henley, married Reading] and the last time I drove home from there I passed through Lane End. The point I was going to make about Lane End, however, is that the IGI entries only cover 1832 to 1876; there could be a RootsChatter in Bucks. who would look up Charles Wood's birth].
I hope this is progress.
Best wishes
Colin
PS It suddenly occurs to me that I don't remember seeing a place of birth for Emma from the 1851 census, have I missed this?
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Good morning, Colin:
I, too, agree that Sarah Champ is the most likely "Sarah" for James in a second marriage. Emma is so much older than the first child born to them, it might be likely that he remarried after the death of Emma's mother. The death records in this case would surely be a help as well! I, too, noticed the "clincher" Elizabeth. I also know that two of James' grandchildren are Henry and Charles - maybe not a clincher here, but somewhat likely knowing the way the British named their children.
Now.....the James and Tabitha Allen names are uppermost in my mind as Emma's parents. On the IGI, there is an "Amy" Allen born 25 Dec 1811 to James Allen and Tabitha ?. Considering I have no birth date for Emma, who knows? Amy could be a diminutive (or a real name) of Emma and/or Amelia. Emma & Charles had a child named Emma and one named Amelia.
Further......to answer another of your questions while I'm thinking of it.....the censuses from 1851 to 1881 (Emma died in 1890 - I have her DC) all the censuses show her birth place as "Reading, Berks."
The 1851 Census with Charles and Emma........that was a bit of a debacle for me. A kind "lister" found the census for me and the enumerator at the time must have been rather lazy, as he has shown only Charles' first name. All the other names are written with just the first initial. They are the correct lot as I have the birth dates all matching and I do know they were living in Bermondsey at the time of the census. The "W" shown is my great-grandfather, William, who brought his family to Ottawa, Canada in 1908.
The 1851 Census shows Charles' place of birth as Hants, Andover and Emma's as Berks, Reading. It shows the first 3 children born at Henley (the first two are the Blackall children), one at Berks Reading and the rest at Bermondsey, Surrey.
The ages shown are Charles, 32 and E. (wife) 35. In this case, Emma is only 3 years older than Charles. In 1881, they have his age as 61 and hers as 69! I haven't seen a copy of the original document for 1881, so I don't know if this age was transcribed correctly. They are living in Newington, Surrey by this time. That is where they died, living with or near their youngest son, Henry.
Charles Woods (her husband, my g-g-grandfather) was born 3 Jan 1819 and christened on the 17th Jan at St. Mary's Andover. I have found almost all the close connections staying strictly in Andover for now. A kind gentlemen from Berks found the information for me at the Winchester Branch of the Hampshire RO. In Charles' case, his birth is not on the IGI either so I pleaded to the Hampshire List for help. I wasn't yet aware of the Rootschat at that time.
As you suggest, being married in Lane End is viable. I realize there are not great distances between the areas but one wonders how they got around? It is possible, the thought has crossed my mind, that Charles' family wasn't happy about the marriage as she was older and she already had two children.
It will cost $6 for me to bring the film in......which is about 4GBP.
I'm sure you are right about the Blockall/Blackall situation. I have a copy of the original document (not one from the GRO) but one I extracted from the film itself and the name is written in black script and could be transcribed as Blockall. I shall leave it at that and hope that any researcher in the future can find her with Charles Woods, now that it has been put on the FreeBMD. It wasn't on there when I started my search for them.
Thank you for helping me with this search. It is very much appreciated.
Regards,
Joan.
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Joan my dear,
I never cease to be amazed by your replies, and I am so impressed by the thoroughness of your research. You always seem several steps ahead of me, but I do feel privileged to have all your feedback.
It is very difficult to go from most 'most likely' to 'absolute certainty'. In the case of Sarah Champ the main step left is to view the record in the marriage PR to confirm Pangbourne and to ensure there are no material facts to disqualify this marriage. In a sense this seems a side issue, because it now seems certain that 'Sarah' was not Emma's mother.
I have some more information on James and Tabitha. They had two other children in addition to the three I have given you. They are Mary Ann and Thomas and were each baptized 29 Apr 1822 - probably twins but not necessarily so.
Tabitha was buried 1 Sep 1824 at St. Giles Reading at the age of 37, i.e. born 1787. I did suggest Mary as another option, but there is no record of her burial in our time frame.
I have examined every data base I can think of by every method I can think of and have virtually drawn a blank every where. There is no marriage between James Allen and Tabitha * in the IGI anywhere in England. There are no Tabithas born around 1787 in Berks, Oxfordshire or Bucks; there are several in Hants but I would not know how to link them to James. There are three for 1790 to 1795 in Berks: Tabitha Head born 1794 Peasmore but died 1801, Tabitha Eatall 1793 Lambourn and Tabitha Fulbrook 1791 Hungerford. I cannot immediately see how to proceed to link one to James Allen. A marriage in Hungerford would show up in the IGI but one in Lambourn would not.
If Tabitha born in 1787, this raises a possibility I hesitate to mention, but it has happened to me three times, and twice in successive generations in the same family. Could Emma be the illigitimate daughter who took on the Allen surname when Tabitha married James [according to the 1871 census she was born in 1808 but I know this is but one of several options]?
In the case of my family for marriages in 1816 and 1852, the bride had two names on the marriage entry. her adopted name and her real name. This may be a red herring, but I come back to Emma's first marriage. I suspect your gentleman at OFHS was Alan Simpson who is excellent and would have given you all the information he could find, but he could only give you the information he had; if he used the same record as I did, a transcript published by OFHS, he only had access to the basic information of names, date and parish. It is possible, but no means certain, that the entry in the parish register could include useful information. The PR is not supplied by LDS on film so you would need to find who holds the original record.
I was about to make sage comments about the St Giles PRs supplied by LDS, but having delved into them, these are not straightforward. An important observation is that the St Giles marriages between 1754 and 1812 are not in the IGI. Given my privileged position, I would: look for James' first marriage, check the accuracy of the Amy transcription, and look-up James' second marriage. It seems that you would need to look at 3 films - no doubt other RootsChatters could help!
I have run out of inspiration for the time being, so I shall leave you to chew over this lot.
Best wishes,
Colin
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Hello Colin:
Well, you certainly know how to give a person a swelled head! But now that it is diminished, I shall answer your post. :D
I received some good news yesterday when I called my contact in Saint John. She told me that the LDS church in my city, Fredericton, has opened an FHC. She gave me a contact number so I promptly called the gentleman and he ordered 3 microfilms for me, one of which was Pangbourne and one included St. Giles Reading 1754-1812. Now I'll not be rushed to look at them and can scan them at my leisure. The church is only blocks from me. Also, if I don't get anything from them, no harm done. He has told me that the wait time is usually about a week.
It certainly sounds like I should keep an open mind about James and Tabitha. The dates are feasible with Tabitha dying before James might have married Sarah. Tabitha could have been 5 years older than James. I don't believe any of them really knew what ages they were during those times. Thank you for Thomas and Mary Ann. I've put them in my file in case Tabitha is proven eventually.
Your suggestion that Emma might be "illegitimate" is not lost on me. I've thought of that myself as I've found several of those in my family. I have one fellow who married in 1890 but he has 4 children starting in 1872. I am hoping that one of the films I've ordered tells me something. I'll certainly let you know if I find something.
Like you, I've been unable to link anyone to my James Allen, definitely. I do thank you for trying.
The gentleman at the OFHS was Paul Gaskell. He suggested I might consider searching for a widow married to my Charles Woods and sure enough, he was absolutely right. He gave me the marriage date of Emma and James Blackall and the names and birth dates of the two children born to them. When I was finally able to extract the marriage certificate for Charles and Emma, I knew I had been put on the right track.
By the way, Emma named her first son "George". There is a George Allen born in 1819, a son of James and Tabitha. A James Blackall born in 1798 at Henley-on-Thames has a father named Augustine, not George. ?? The mother was "Ann". Emma named her first daughter Harriett. There are many Harriett Allens but I did not see any Harriett Blackalls.
I shall take particular note of James' two marriages and the "Amy" entry as well as any "Emma" entries I can find. I'll also take note of all the Sarahs, just in case.
As usual, thank you for your suggestions. They are gratefully accepted as I very much appreciate the help.
Best wishes
Joan.