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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: kooky on Saturday 25 November 06 15:15 GMT (UK)
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Have Samuel Clulo b 1851 in 1861 census with parents Samuel b1828 and Ann nee Bryan b 1828 at Eyre St,Ladywood Birmingham.Father Samuel died 1861, Ann married Charles Hyett b 1810 in 1862 - no children.Ann died 1871.Charles married Elizabeth Bryan also 1871 and died 1872.Again no children.
What happened to young Samuel? I cannot find him in any other census,[Clulo, Hyett and Bryan]the IGI, or any birth,marriage or death index or passenger lists.Birmingham reg. have no record of his birth.When Elizabeth Hyett nee Bryan died in 1877 the informant was her son Thomas[also in 1861 census with Samuel]There is no father on Thomas' birth cert. in 1857.
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Just going to post census details etc to clarify this is the info you have.
Samuel Clulo married Ann Bryan sep qtr 1851 Birmingham
1861
Samuel Clulo - head - 33 - Birmingham (died dec qtr 1861 Birmingham)
Ann Clulo - wife - 33 - Birmingham (remarried Charles Hyett dec qtr 1862 Birmingham)(died mar qtr 1871 Birmingham) - Charles married Elizabeth Bryan mar qtr 1871)
Samuel Clulo - son - 10 - Birmingham
Thomas Bryan - nephew - 3 - Birmingham
1871
Charles Hyatt - head - 61 - Cheltenham (died dec qtr 1872 Birmingham)
Elizabeth Hyatt - wife - 37 - Birmingham
Thomas Bryan - grdson - 13 - Birmingham
Jane Bryan - grddau - 7 - Birmingham
Elizabeth Bryan - wifes mother - 80 - Darlaston
sorry only got questions at the moment:
there is Samuel Bryan born sep qtr 1850 in Birmingham, on 1861 census though think it is the one with mother Elizabeth aged 55 and then married Louisa Jones in Aston, both living Duddeston in 1871 with two children? Presume you have seen this one and can't be yours?
Why is Thomas enumerated as grandson in 1871? Isn't he Elizabeth's son?
Have you Ann/Elizabeth as sisters on any census to prove the relationship.
Not for me to judge but isn't it strange that Charles's wife died and he remarried in the same qtr of 1871?
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Some answers! I have Thomas Bryan's b.cert. - mother Elizabeth, no father.Have Elizabeth Hyett's d.cert. 1877,widow of Charles Hyett,still at 66,Hill St. informant Thomas Bryan son.
Do not have Ann and Elizabeth in a census together.Have just sent for m.cert. for Elizabeth and Charles.
In 1861 census Thomas Bryan is described as nephew[wrongly transcribed as Beyan] with Samuel,Ann and Samuel.
Have mother & dau. Elizabeth in 1841 census also Thomas b.1827 who was witness at Ann Clulo's marriage to Charles Hyett.
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So from this then the enumerator has put grdson but should be stepson?
Have you considered this death?
Samuel Clulo death reg dec 1861 Birmingham vol:6d pg:2
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Yes enumerator's mistake.
Yes have death cert. for Samuel Clulo aged 33 Dec.1861 - Samuel's father!
Thanks for suggestions so far!
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Have you just looked on freebmd for Samuel jnrs death or have you looked through the images qtr by qtr?
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I have noted every Clulo BMD from 1837 up to date!
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well looks like you've been thorough then! :P Sorry i don't know where else to suggest to go with this one.
David
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Thanks for help!
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Have you checked the more common spellings of the surname such as Clulow and Clelow or even Cluio (the spelling of the surname on his father's marriage)?
Have you found Samuel's birth registration? How was his surname spelt on that? Given that you have only found him on one census was his name registered as 'something' and then Samuel or just Samuel? If you put in Samuel Clulo in FreeBMD it will only search for Samuel as a first name not a second.
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
thanks for message.I do not have any record of Samuel's birth[see original post]
In my research I have come across 20[NOW 22] spellings of CLULO and I have used them all in my pursuit of Samuel.I also put Samuel in the 1871 census search in Ancestry, with no surname b. Birmingham about 1850 and looked at hundreds of names!
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Is that because Samuel's birth was registered in the surname Bryan and not Clulo?
Births Sep 1850
Bryan Samuel Birmingham 16 313
1851 census HO107 2051 folio 500
Clement Street Birmingham Warwickshire
John Bryant 58 Birmingham Head Married Engine Fitter
Betsy Bryant 57 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Wife Married Domestic Duties
Betsy Bryant 16 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Daughter No occupation
Ann Bryant 23 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Daughter Unmarried
Samuel Bryant 4mths Birmingham Grandson
two households away
Thomas Bryan 34 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Head Married Engine fitter
Mary Bryan 26 Birmingham Wife Married Domestic Duties
1861 census RG9 2177 folio 62
1 Court Gorton? Green Street Aston Warwickshire
John Bryan 68 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Head Married Engine Fitter
Betsy Bryan 67 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Wife Married
Thomas Bryan 34 Darlaston, Staffordshire, Son Widower Engine Fitter
Emma Bryan 6 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Granddaughter
Regards
Valda
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Valda, interesting thought! If your theory is correct why is he Clulo in 1861 census?
Also Ann Bryan/Clulo/Hyett was born in Birmingham not Darlaston Staffs.
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Birmingham is Ann's birthplace on one census - the 1861 census (have you found her on any others?). It doesn't make it necessarily her correct birthplace, since the census is only as good as the information given by the informer. Betsy/Elizabeth Bryan the elder gives Darlaston as her birthplace on the 1871 census. Her daughter Elizabeth born Birmingham seems a perfect fit age wise for Betsy junior born Darlaston on the 1851 census. What father's name and occupation do the sisters Elizabeth and Ann give on their marriages?
You don't tell census enumerators your business if you don't feel it necessary to do so, so there is nothing to stop you giving the information Samuel was a legitimate Clulo (which might indeed be the surname he was known by at the time - after all there is no reason to believe he wasn't Samuel's son - though it appears Ann might have had a brother also called Samuel, so the boy might not have been named for Samuel Clulo) as opposed to some longer explanation about wife's illegitimate child.
ANN BRYAN
Christening: 20 JUL 1828 Saint Lawrence, Darlaston Near Wolverhampton, Stafford
Father: JOHN BRYAN Mother: ELIZABETH
Regards
Valda
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Valda, more thought provoking info.!
I suppose my next move is Samuel Bryan's birth cert.
I have an Ann Bryan in the 1841 census with the LINE family aged 15,b.Warwickshire in Pritchett St. Birmingham.
Also have marriage ref. for Samuel Bryan and Louisa Augusta Jones Dec.qu. 1868 Aston.This of course may not have father on it if he was illegitimate!
I was wanting to find Samuel Clulo originally because most of my research is about the Clulo family, and I thought I may find descendants.
Have Samuel Bryan in 1861 census in Thorpe St age 10 with Elizabeth Bryan age 55 and Emma age 20.Samuel is described as son. I do not think that Samuel could be in 2 different families and locations simultaneously!
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I had seen the other Samuel but could not find him on the 1851 census (perhaps he also, if born by then, is in another surname - I don't presume he was born legitimately - maybe maybe not - the 1861 census is not conclusive). I had thought the marriage to Louisa was more likely to be him and not Samuel Bryan/Clulo. If this Samuel was also born illegitimately his marriage certificate would prove nothing!
The first step is knowing whether Ann and Elizabeth Bryan on their marriages state their father was called John and he was an engine fitter. If that is the case it tends to prove the hypothesis (I think you can prove hypothesises you can't prove theories) that the 1851 census entry is correct.
Once that is proved it is up to you whether you chance the birth certificate. However, even if it was your Samuel the certificate probably wouldn't show the name of the father. The 1851 census entry would be enough evidence to show that whoever was the father, Samuel was born illegitimately before his mother's marriage.
Legally you can be known by any surname you want, but since Samuel was born before the marriage he would always have been illegitimate. It wasn't until the C20th that a subsequent marriage legitimised children born before their parents weddings (laws are never retrospective).
There seems no evidence so far, that if Samuel survived in whatever surname he choose to use in adulthood, that he had any close contact or even contact at all with the Clulo family.
Regards
Valda
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Valda, thanks for message.
On Ann Bryan and Samuel Clulo's marriage cert.July 31st 1851, Ann was living in Clement St and her father is John Bryan,Engine Fitter. This all fits!
I am awaiting marriage cert. for Elizabeth and Charles Hyett.
Kooky
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The marriage information confirms the 1851 census (census night 31st March) and Samuel's birth as a Bryan, but his isn't necessarily the birth registered in September quarter 1850 - that might be a little old for him. As he was 4mths old (if correct) on census night you would expect a December quarter registration for his birth not September.
Regards
Valda
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Now have marr.cert. for Charles Hyett age 54[!] and Elizabeth Bryan age 40 [!] 20th March 1871 at the Register Office by certificate.His address was 66 Hill St and hers was 159, Lawley St. Aston.Her father was John Bryan engine fitter.
Ann and Elizabeth were sisters. Charles and Elizabeth both seem to have adjusted their ages.Charles at his death in Dec.1872 ref.B'ham 6d85 was 63 and on all censuses his birth was in 1810.Elizabeth was 37 in 1871 census. and 43 at her death in 1877.
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It doesn't answer you original question about Samuel but it does confirm who the Bryans were and the 1851 and 1861 census entries including Samuel's.
Regards
Valda
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I sent for the birth cert. for Jane Bryan gr daughter age 7 in 1871 census.
Her mother was Betsy Bryan, no father. She was born in the workhouse, Dudley Rd.Birmingham.
I am not sure how she was grand daughter. Also cant find her anywhere later.
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I also sent for death cert for Charles Hyett. He died age 63, still at 66, Hill St. 4th Dec. 1872.
He died of 'Alcohlismus Hepatic Disease'
The informant was not his wife. It was Mary Bate, present at the death and also living at 66, Hill Street. I cant find Mary in 1871 living in Hill St. Maybe she was a nurse living in.
I have sent for a will for Charles Hyett. I am still hoping to shed some light on Samuel Clulo.
See previous entries in this post! ::)
There was no will for Charles Hyett :'(
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Kooky
would William Clulo a Beer Retailer in the "1850 directory"of Birmingham Heath be of any relation to your clulo's?
Celia
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Oh yes! :D
He was married to Maria Bennett and had 8 children including my gt gr father James in 1849.
His brother Samuel was the father of my missing Samuel.
I am aware of the entry.
Thanks anyway. How come you found him?
Kooky
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I have just been looking at a current thread about non registration of births before 1875. [27th Nov.]
I did have a go at finding SAMUEL CLULO'S baptism without success. Maybe I should try again? Can anyone suggest a way forward? I have checked the IGI, used batch no. searches of parishes in Birmingham.
Kooky
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In view of all the new members of Rootschat, I would love to resurrect this thread.
Has anyone any ideas about how I could find either Samuel's birth or what happened to him after the 1861 census?
Kooky
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Hi Kooky
see you are still looking :) I have been through the posts again and i cant see any mention of
Samuel Clewlow reg 1854 Newcastle U/Lyme? Staffs.
might he be related?
Celia
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Thanks for looking. No I don't think he is related. I've no record of anyone in Newcastle under Lyme.
Kooky
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FOUND HIM!
In a website posted today - C19th British Library Newspapers, Birmingham Quarter Sessions, Birmingham Daily Post, Thursday July 8th 1869 issue 3422
News " Thieving and receiving. Samuel Hyatt alias Clulo (19) gas fitter, etc. etc. charged with stealing a table cover.................sentenced to 4 months" !
Well well, I have had a quick look in 1871 census with no luck.
Can anyone else find him?
Kooky
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Kooky
Great news Kooky i am so pleased for you,when you spend a long time looking for someone,instead of giving up. It makes you more determined to find them ;D I started looking for my grandads brother 4 years ago i only found him last year on a website i didn't know was available to me so i had never used it.I still don't know anything about him except the mention of his death in the article.
Celia
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Persistance pays off! I've noticed your search for Samuel Clulo (Hyatt) all around the web. Well Done! What site was it that you used? I will certainly keep my eye out for anything related to Samuel
I always feel a bit bad as you provide lots of information after countless research that I can use, but I can't give anything back. Still, I'm only just starting out and when I know a bit more I'm in a fantastic place to reasearch the Clulo's (South Staffordshire, just near Birmingham)
PS How did you find out about John Clulo (b 1728)
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Thanks for your message. I have PMd you.
If you ever fancy visiting Birmingham Central Library, let me know!
There are lots of things to check out there!
Kooky
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There is a Samuel Hyatt who died in 1903 (born around 1851) registered in Lichfield. Could this be him?
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I did see this. It is a possibility. I will think about it!
Kooky
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He's on the 1901 census living in Rugeley (registration district Lichfield) born Gloucester with his wife and step children, a railway platelayer aged 51.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda. Well looks like this is not he! He was definitely born in Birmingham!
Kooky
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Now that my missing SAMUEL CLULO b.1850 has re-appeared as SAMUEL HYATT alias CLULO, obviously bent on a life of crime, perhaps I should be looking at a possible trip to Australia?
Kooky
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Convict transportation to Australia ceased in 1868.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda!
Kooky
Anyone else got any ideas?
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7 years on ::)
Put Samuel Clulo into Immigration and travel search in Ancestry.
2 records. Canadian passenger lists 1865 - 1935
Saml Clulo dep. Liverpool arr. Quebec, Canada.
Also
U.S. & Canada passenger and immigration lists index 1500s. - 1900s.
I can't open them a World sub. needed! 8)
Kooky
Can anyone assist?
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Could someone move this to Canada requests please?
I have no idea how to do it :-[
Thank you
Kooky