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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Lincslass on Monday 18 December 06 16:21 GMT (UK)
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One of my brick walls.
Margaret Muckells born 15th March 1851. Married George Gorringe 20th April 1870. Had my G G grandad George Edward 19th May 1870. Then came Sarah 1872 and Thomas 1873. Then a big gap and she had James Rowden Gorringe in 1883. I have the family together in 1881, transcribed as Godringe. I personally don't think James is Georges' son as Her sister Charlotte married a Thomas Rowden.
In 1891 Margaret is in Bishopwearmouth Workhouse with son James R. Her husband remarried 1890 to Sarah Ann Douglas. So I can find no death or remarriage for Margaret. By 1901 James R is with my G G grandad in Grimsby. But no sign of Margaret. Not in Scotland either. The death in Sept Q 1897 is not her as her husband was Thomas and the death was registered by her father J Naisbett.
I keep going back to these brick walls. Any one help me please?
Jo
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If Margaret is still alive in 1891 then George could only marry Sarah Ann in 1890 if he was divorced or committed bigamy. If he had divorced Margaret, an expensive business but not unknown amongst ordinary working people, then Margaret could have remarried or died many years afterwards.
Stan
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;D
I realised that and have him down as a bigamist as he was an ag lab. He died in 1916 and had at least 5 children to his second wife who were of a similiar age to his grandchildren.
:o
There is a marriage in 1913 to a Collinge which could be correct. Worth £7 I suppose.
Update after checking census, He was mariner not an Ag Lab
:-[
Jo
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You say there is a big gap in the children. Is it possible there were some who died? Have you looked for baptism records? Burials in the local church might help too. If she was in the workhouse then the records there might be helpful. Have you looked at them? Getting James Rowden's birth certificate would solve that question - or finding his baptism. It is always possible that Charlotte married a distant cousin and Rowden name appears further back in the ancestry.
A few more avenues to follow perhaps? Does sound like bigamy though!!
Andrea
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I have James Rowden Gorringe birth cert. I decided to buy it to clear up the question but the fathers name is the same as my G G Grandfathers. Yes I had considered that they may be other children who had died. I can only see a couple of possibles between 1875 and 1881. I must admit that I have not gone down the Rowden avenue but the families of Gorringe and Rowden live close by in earlier censuses and there were several brothers to Thomas who married Margarets sister Charlotte.
Many thanks for your time
Jo
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I hope Margaret Muckell didn't marry a Mickell...
Sorry, but it was the first thought that popped into my head when I read her name.
Half Pint
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Jo,
George Gorringe and his parents Edward and Mary Ann were from Kent. Although Thomas Rowden was Sunderland-born, the Surname Profiler web site shows the Rowden surname roots to be in Kent.
( But this is very longshot ! )
The birth of a Charlotte Ann Gorrings was reg with Sunderland DRO in Dec Qtr 0f 1876. Death registered Mar Qtr 1878, for a 1 yr old Charlotte Ann Gorringe aged 1 yr. Margaret Jane's mother was Charlotte !
George Gorringe marries Sara Ann Douglass in 1890. I wonder if he married her in same site ( RO or church) where he married Margaret Jane !.
As you say, on C1891, Margaret and son James Rowden Gorringe are in the Workhouse.
Her sons Thomas and George are lodgers in Hind St.
Dastardly George is with wife Sarah in Hylton St. Her father Andrew is in Johnson. These three addresses are very close.
And guess where the workhouse was ? Just off Hylton Street !
I wonder what happened to Margaret and why could she not get supported by the extended family.
When her brother Thomas lost his wife, Jane, aged 32 yrs, his sister-in-law, Elizabeth Stewart , nee Morris, took in his dtr Charlotte, and he and his other dtr Barbara lodged with his sister Charlotte and his brother-in-law Thomas Rowden.
And a strange coincidence.. Thomas Gorringe had married
Margaret Jane Naisbett in 1873, and she was similar age to Margaret Jane Muckle/Gorringe, and both born in Sunderland.
Like you and others, I can see Marg Jane nee Muckle on C1901 or in death registrations, or under maiden name or marriages.
Back to the Workhouse angle. On C1981, she is correctly recorded as a married woman. Now I am not absolutely sure about this, but I think Union Workhouses would not support someone without trying to limit the cost, e.g. returning folk to their own parish, or making a claim agaist the "home" parish. But MJ was in her home parish. But they knew she had a husband. I wonder if they knew he was just around the corner, and wonder if they tackled him for cash ?
Tynemouth was my home workhouse,( lovely Full English breakfast every morning, and a drop of brandy before bed ) Their records are available, not just the 10-yrly census listings , but for admissions and departures and classification under which folk entered the w/h. and etc. But where to see Sunderland's records ??
County Record Office in Durham City... Sunderland library..??.
I notice George fathered two Georges and two Sarahs !
Best of luck.
Michael Dixon ( saw some Gallaghers in w/h, on previous page tp Margaret Jane )
Michael Dixon
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For Sunderland Workhouse Records see Tyne & Wear Archives guide
http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/pdf/userguide22.pdf
Stan
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Michael
Many thanks for your response. I had considered that Charlotte may be theirs. It is quite feasible as Georges paternal Grandmother was Sarah, their first daughter.
I did not know that they were all living so close together. I wonder if they knew of their fathers new marriage but kept it from their mother. I strongly suspect that she was disowned following the birth of James R. It is my only answer as they were all living so close. Despite my previous comment that he was an Ag Lab, he was in fact a mariner/sailor. So she could have said he was at sea.???
I live in Aylesbury and visit the records office regularly and have seen that there are little booklets of workhouse entrants, leavers births and deaths and have thought, I wish I lived in Durham. I will have to go down that avenue.
There is an irony in my maternal branch. I was aware that Georges father Dastadly George was born in Kent and moved to Sunderland in the 1860s. George G born 1895 in Sunderland moved to Grimsby sometime with mother Jane Ann nee Robertson and sister Margaret b 1897 and had another sibling Thomas born 1900 in Grimsby followed by two more siblings in 1902 and 1907. (Can't find them on the 1901 census and don't know why they aren't with their daddy George b 1870 son of dastardly George, who is with his brother James R)
Anyway, the irony is that George born 1895, my grandfather, married my grandmother, born 1901 in 1921 in Grimsby. My grandmothers grandfather, also a mariner, though born in Lincolnshire moved up to Sunderland in the 1850's married there, had three children there but moved back to Grimsby between 1877 when my G grandfather Thomas Ayscough was born in Sunderland and the 1881 census.
Back to MJ. I will have to investigate the link kindly given by Stanmap ans see if I can come up with anything.
Thanks you all for your time.
Jo
;D
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Jo,
Going on from Stan's info, this afternoon I popped down to Tyne & Wear Archives.
I have User Guide 22 in front of me now.
Sunderland Union Workhouse records are referenced HO/HI, but they hold over 70 pieces ( files, volumes , papers, )under this headline all physical, not fiche or film.
I requested item HO/HI 9/1 which was an itemised register covering admissions etc from about 1880 to 1907.
I was refused access to it because there was a 100 yr embargo on the info.... 1907--not clear until 2007... also because the volume was in poor state... but anyway archivist had a look for MJ Gorringe.... but could not see her..
The problem was that the book was sectioned into various eras....to include current admissions... there was no OVERALL name index.... as I could not tell her when MJ was admitted or released or died, I was snookered... all I could say was that she was admitted between April 1881 and April 1891...
And it it was close to closing time...etc.. but I hope to give it another go in the new year 2007.. and embargo might be off then..
Do you have the birth registration details for George Edward/Jane Ann's Sunderland-born children ?
Were any of their children registered at South Shields DRO ?
Michael Dixon
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Many thanks for your response. It is very kind of you to go to all that trouble. James R birth cert 8/10/1883 has them living at 6 Clazey Terrace Sunderland to narrow down the time line. If you ever need anything looking up in Buckinghamshire RO, just let me know.
I have my Grandads birth cert 17/12/1895 in the subdistrict of Westoe in the Counties of South Shields and Durham and living at 138 Palmerston Street Westoe. I also have the 1907 birth cert of Rhoda in 1907 in Grimsby to check the parents were the same. My mum gave me a lot of details about her paternal side. Told me that her father had siblings and gave me all their names which is how I was able to find them. My mum also told me that her grandma, Jane Ann remarried a Chandler. So I was able to find this in 1923, 7 years after George her husband died. Looks like she got to know him via her brother in law James R who married a Kate Chandler in 1910.
These two families are very elusive. After years I have finally managed to find my paternal G Grandfather who left his wife with three tots in 1887 and shipped of to Cleveland Ohio and started a new family (thank goodness for the forsight of giving the sons the middle name that was the mothers or grandmothers maiden name)
Many thanks again for your time.
Jo
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Jo,
I am confused about the family of George Edward Gorringe and Jane Ann. Please list them and the birth registrations at the appropriate RO .
On the angle of the bigamy... there is another element to be considered.... Insanity might have been a factor that could lead, not necessarily to divorce but to annulment.
Sunderland Workhouse was also an Asylum.
But this angle needs further research before it can be accepted as applying to the Gorringe/Muckle couple.
Michael Dixon
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Many thanks for taking the time to look for my elusive rellies.
George E Gorringe son of George and Margaret nee Muckells was born 19th May 1870. He married Jane Ann Robertson 26th March 1894 in Millfield Co Durham.
Children are:
George Edward 17th Dec 1895 in Westoe (my Grandfather)
Margaret March Q 1897 Sunderland
Thomas William March Q 1900 Grimsby
Robert James Sept Q 1902 Grimsby
Rhoada 25th March 1907 Grimsby
In 1901 George E born 1870 was with his younger brother James Rowden in Grimsby. No sign of Jane or the three children. Janes paternal grandmother was Scottish so I looked there too but no sign.
Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.
Jo
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Jo,
So many "interesting" angles to your lot (lol).
Census 1901.
Geordie Gorringe's wife and children seems to have disappeared ( no, I'm not giving up, well not yet). But a strange (but not impossible) factor... Geordie and his brother at 94 East Marsh St are occupying FOUR rooms.... I wonder if bedrooms were also "en suite" ?
Michael Dixon
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Just goes to show. I have only been doing this for 18 months and never noticed that the number of rooms is on the 1891 and 1901 censuses. I have yet to get some 'flesh on the bones' so to speak.
I have some snippets from my mum about her father and mother from memories. George born 1895 ran off with his wifes sister, Florence (My Mums namesake)shortly after my mum was born in 1924 but he must have come back as he died in 1954 in Grimsby. But Mum never said whether she had seen him. Though my mums Auntie Flo, I remember clearly living in Grimsby. Unsure whether my Nan and Grandad ever divorced as my Nan remarried in 1937. Never gave that a thought before. Best get looking.
::)
Jo
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Jo,
But a strange (but not impossible) factor... Geordie and his brother at 94 East Marsh St are occupying FOUR rooms.... I wonder if bedrooms were also "en suite" ?
Michael Dixon
I don't see what is strange about this, in the 1901 census returns a quarter of all tenements had four rooms. Also neither the Census Acts nor the instructions to the householders ever defined what a 'room' was.
Stan
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In searching for where the householder's wife and 5 children were on C1901, I was just wondering if there was anything unusual about two brothers having 4 thingies for themselves. while others around them with 4 thingies, had a larger household to accommodate.
Michael Dixon
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I must admit that the idea that the wife and 3 children could well have been there but just not there when the enumerator arrived, has been given as a reason before. I suppose it is a possibility and I see your reasoning Michael.
Why would they have four rooms for just two men? And until I find out what happened to MJ, I can't be sure when James R went to stay with his brother. It could have been the week before the census for all I know. If thats the case, it is even more unlikely that he would have had four rooms to himself. Very strange.
Jo
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Jo,
I do not like the idea of us saying, when we can't find folk, that enumerator missed them or they laid low etc.
But those 1+5 Gorringes are sure hard to find, in Lincs, Co Durham, all England etc... and using search criteria, of various permutations of first names and birthplaces and ages... ????
Michael Dixon.
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im not sure if anyone comes back to this thread, naughty George Gorringe (as I call him haha) was my 3rd great grandfather...it is brilliant to read peoples thoughts on it all, and to read it all I will have to get a strong cup of coffee to make sense of it :) my granddad Tommy gorringe is still alive and we live in the Bolton/wigan area x
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im not sure if anyone comes back to this thread, naughty George Gorringe (as I call him haha) was my 3rd great grandfather...it is brilliant to read peoples thoughts on it all, and to read it all I will have to get a strong cup of coffee to make sense of it :) my granddad Tommy gorringe is still alive and we live in the Bolton/wigan area x
I am the original OP and dastardly George was my 2nd gt grandfather. As he was your 3rd, I am assuming your 3 x gt Grandmother was Sarah Douglas.
So long ago that I posted this, but thankfully any reply posted, and I get an E mail. I would love to share my tree with you and discuss George. I found Margaret Janes death BTW. She did indeed marry a John Collinge in 1913 and she died in 1920. Though I have never found her in 1911. I have done a lot more to my tree in the 6 + years and have gone back a further 3 generations on the Gorringe side.
Nice to find another 2nd cousin.
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I have just been back onto the gorringe side of my tree (iv been neglecting it for a while), I think you are the very helpful lady who I spoke to in February regarding the gorringe/muckelles drama, I am from the gorringe/muckelles line, then from there down from each of the Thomas gorringes. I have found a lot of Gorringes in Kent etc and I have always wondered if there will be a link, and there is :). I am wondering, do you have any pictures of any gorringes? x
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I have just been back onto the gorringe side of my tree (iv been neglecting it for a while), I think you are the very helpful lady who I spoke to in February regarding the gorringe/muckelles drama, I am from the gorringe/muckelles line, then from there down from each of the Thomas gorringes. I have found a lot of Gorringes in Kent etc and I have always wondered if there will be a link, and there is :). I am wondering, do you have any pictures of any gorringes? x
Hi again. Yes indeed, I think we have been in touch via Ancestry and If I am correct I have access to your tree and visa versa. Though I cannot recall which tree is yours as I have a share of a few. The only pictures I have of the Gorringes are on the other post you posted on yesterday, of my grandfather b 1895 George Edward and his grandfather George b 1843. But I do have is wedding photograph , boxing day 1921. Of course there is a photo of my mum who is my icon for this board. Yes they did stem from Kent and Sussex too, earlier on. Nice to chat again. PM me if you need to.
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I know it has been years...again! I keep ending up back to this thread when on my Gorringe side. In the past few years i have found information and quite a few newspaper articles regarding what happened with George and Margaret, she had an affair whilst he was at sea and ran off with a married man (who left her whilst whilst she suffered with Tubercuosis in which he got imprisoned for abandoning). She shipped all the furniture to Newport in her new mans name and took 2 of the children and left several with a neighbour. Upon George arriving home he reported the incident and they got caught. This happened mid 1884 and James Rowden was born Oct 1885....very very possible he isnt Georges, im not sure what happened to their relationship straight after what had happened, but evidently George remarried in 1890...maybe they rekindled for a short time who knows! Hope you're well, maybe you have this information already.
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Hiya, I think Lincslass may be related to me! Is there anyway they can connect with me?
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Margaret Muckells would be my GGG Grandmother I believe, there’s a few people on this side of the family that would definitely be related to Lincslass in some way. I don’t have access to PMs though, it won’t let me send any.
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Sweat Pea,
It might be that you have to make 3 replies or entries, right now you are at 2. Reply to this and you should be able to send a PM.
Janis
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Thank you so much, Janis!