RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jillruss on Wednesday 24 January 07 13:38 GMT (UK)
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I think I may have broken down a bit of a brickwall but it depends whether or not it was/is legal for first cousins to marry.
This is in the mid 1700s in Berkshire.
I've been looking for a Mary Clifford baptism around 1720s for ages. She had a 'baseborn' son in 1747 - it's just occurred to me that she may have been married or widowed and still have had an illegitimate son. Don't know why it took me this long to try it (especially as it happened in another of my branches) but, anyway, it did!
I found a marriage of a Thomas Clifford and Mary Harris in 1742 in Reading and then the death of a Thomas Clifford in Reading in 1744 (no age given, so not definitive proof).
Then Mary Clifford has her baseborn son in Bray, Berkshire in 1747. But, why Bray?
Then, I found that Mary Harris , baptised in Reading, had a sister Sarah Harris who married William Smith in Bray in 1737 and - guess what?!- it looks as though their daughter Sarah Smith married the baseborn William Clifford in Bray in 1766.
So, there's the Bray connection!
But it all falls down if first cousins couldn't marry!! Please tell me they could! Please!!
Jill
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seems OK under current law .... and I have an example of 1st cousins in the 1870s ...
http://www.weddingguide.co.uk/articles/legal/prohibited.asp
hopefully others will have more knowledge ,,,
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Yes, they could. It was not only possible for first cousins [cousins-german] to marry each other; it was also quite common, having been legalized in the 1540s.
32 Hen VIII, c.38(1540). [Marriage]. (Precontracting & Degrees of Consanguinity).
Which says in effect that all marriages were valid unless prohibited by God’s laws.
2nd . July 1540.
Stan
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Was possible and quite common.
yn9man
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When parliament legalized marriages between first cousins, it was determined that only those marriages expressly prohibited in the Bible should be forbidden, and nowhere did the Bible indicate that cousin marriage was undesirable. Following Henry’s reforms cousin marriages were freely permitted by the main Protestant churches in England and in the colonies.
Stan
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I found 3 pairs from the same family in the 1860s (in this case the fathers were brothers) - well it was a small village ;)
My ancestor was another brother of the fathers (phew)!
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There is a page of those prohibited by Consanguinity or Affinity at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Eframland/acts/affinity.htm
It could shed some light.
Cheers
Guy
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Wow! I hadn't realised it was such a common occurrence.
Actually, browsing the IGI for Bray and Reading, it seems that there were a few Clifford/Harris marriages, so obviously a close knit community.
Thanks everyone. Another problem solved! ;D
Jill
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My grandparents were first cousins and they married in 1923. Their dad's were brothers.
My hubby says that explains a lot................ >:(
Carol
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I think I've found two of my Vincent brothers who married their 2 cousins (also Vincents) from the next village, then one of the resulting daughters married another Vincent from 4 miles away. When presented with this, my old mum said "Of course they would, they wouldn't want any riff-raff in the family!" ::) :)
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I think I've found two of my Vincent brothers who married their 2 cousins (also Vincents) from the next village, then one of the resulting daughters married another Vincent from 4 miles away. When presented with this, my old mum said "Of course they would, they wouldn't want any riff-raff in the family!" ::) :)
LOL ;D ;D
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My grand parents were first cousins.
Linda.
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Wow! I hadn't realised it was such a common occurrence.
Jill
In full agreement with you on that point.
yn9man
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It was a lot more common than thought, especially in smaller towns or hamlets.
Barbara 8)
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The Anglican Book of Common Prayer lists all those that one is not allowed to marry and first cousins are definitely not included in the list. I know this well because as a young choir girl I had a lot of time to study it when the sermon was particularly boring. ::)
Linda.
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Me too Linda, and we used to stiffle giggles where it said
..... ...may not marry....Lest an ABOMINATION occur.
do you remember?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Funny how it all comes back to you. I started a thread on this subject on RC when I found out my grandparents were first cousins a few months back. It seems to have been treated with a certain amount of secrecy in the family and I wasnt sure why because I remembered so well reading the Book of Common Prayer. My grandparents were Church of Scotland but I am sure it wouldnt have been any different.
Linda.
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I've come across the child of a first cousins marriage then marrying her first cousin :o, which is getting a little too close IMHO.
Not my line fortunately! ;)
Jane
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I have never really understood why it is allowed when other more distant relations are not allowed to marry! Dont think we came up with a definite answer on the previous thread either. Perhaps we will this time!
Linda.
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I can't remember where I found this, but I read some time ago that it is estimated that before 1800 about 40 percent of marriages (in the UK) were between first, second or third cousins.
JULIAN
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Thats amazing Julian! I didnt realise it was as high as that. I guess there were very limited opportunities to travel far from home but it still seems a lot. I guess we just have more choice these days, and more opportunity to meet a wider range of people.
Linda.
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The List of Prohibited Degrees cited by Archbishop Parker in 1563, and embodied in Canon 99 in 1603 and stated in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer remained in force until 1907.
Current Restrictions
A man may not marry his:
· Mother (also step-mother, former step-mother, mother-in-law, former mother-in-law, adoptive mother or former adoptive mother)
· Daughter (also step-daughter, former step-daughter, daughter-in-law, former daughter-in-law, adoptive daughter or former adoptive daughter)
· Sister (also half-sister)
· Father's mother (grandmother)
· Mother's mother (grandmother)
· Father's father's former wife (step-grandmother)
· Mother's father's former wife (step-grandmother)
· Son's daughter (granddaughter)
· Daughter's daughter (granddaughter)
· Wife's son's daughter (step-granddaughter)
· Wife's daughter's daughter (step-granddaughter)
· Son's son's wife (grandson's wife)
· Daughter's son's wife (grandson's wife)
· Father's sister (aunt)
· Mother's sister (aunt)
· Brother's daughter (niece)
· Sister's daughter (niece)
A woman may not marry her:
· Father (also step-father, former step-father, father-in-law, former father-in-law, adoptive father or former adoptive father)
· Son (also step-son, former step-son, son-in-law, former son-in-law, adoptive son or former adoptive son)
· Brother (also half-brother or step-brother)
· Father's father (grandfather)
· Mother's father (grandfather)
· Mother's mother's former husband (step-grandfather)
· Father's mother's former husband (step-grandfather)
· Son's son (grandson)
· Daughter's son (grandson)
· Husband's daughter's son (step grandson)
· Husband's son's son (step grandson)
· Son's daughter's husband (granddaughter's husband)
· Daughter's daughter's husband (granddaughter's husband)
· Father's brother (uncle)
· Mother's brother (uncle)
· Brother's son (nephew)
· Sister's son (nephew)
In Scotland, a man may not marry his great-grandmother or great-granddaughter and a woman may not marry her great-grandfather or great-grandson.
Stan
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No wonder so many married their first cousins then,there wasn't anyone else left ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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As I noted earlier in the thread virtually the full listings of prohibitions at various times from biblical time to the modern day is at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Eframland/acts/affinity.htm
Cheers
Guy
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Some of my ancestors from the 1600s/1700s married their first cousins. My own great-grandparents were cousins, but not first. Marriage between cousins was also common among Royal & Aristocratic circles.
Jayson
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The List of Prohibited Degrees cited by Archbishop Parker in 1563, and embodied in Canon 99 in 1603 and stated in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer remained in force until 1907.
Current Restrictions
A man may not marry his:
· Mother (also step-mother, former step-mother, mother-in-law, former mother-in-law, adoptive mother or former adoptive mother)
· Daughter (also step-daughter, former step-daughter, daughter-in-law, former daughter-in-law, adoptive daughter or former adoptive daughter)
· Sister (also half-sister)
· Father's mother (grandmother)
· Mother's mother (grandmother)
· Father's father's former wife (step-grandmother)
· Mother's father's former wife (step-grandmother)
· Son's daughter (granddaughter)
· Daughter's daughter (granddaughter)
· Wife's son's daughter (step-granddaughter)
· Wife's daughter's daughter (step-granddaughter)
· Son's son's wife (grandson's wife)
· Daughter's son's wife (grandson's wife)
· Father's sister (aunt)
· Mother's sister (aunt)
· Brother's daughter (niece)
· Sister's daughter (niece)
A woman may not marry her:
· Father (also step-father, former step-father, father-in-law, former father-in-law, adoptive father or former adoptive father)
· Son (also step-son, former step-son, son-in-law, former son-in-law, adoptive son or former adoptive son)
· Brother (also half-brother or step-brother)
· Father's father (grandfather)
· Mother's father (grandfather)
· Mother's mother's former husband (step-grandfather)
· Father's mother's former husband (step-grandfather)
· Son's son (grandson)
· Daughter's son (grandson)
· Husband's daughter's son (step grandson)
· Husband's son's son (step grandson)
· Son's daughter's husband (granddaughter's husband)
· Daughter's daughter's husband (granddaughter's husband)
· Father's brother (uncle)
· Mother's brother (uncle)
· Brother's son (nephew)
· Sister's son (nephew)
In Scotland, a man may not marry his great-grandmother or great-granddaughter and a woman may not marry her great-grandfather or great-grandson.
Stan
Doesn't leave many choices now does it ...
yn9man
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I have, in my tree, first cousins who married in 1978. It is not illegal and has not been illegal for as long as I can determine.....probably since Henry VIII.
Having said that......the church can refuse to marry first cousins.....providing they know of the relationship I presume......but as far as the civil marriage...it is perfectly legal.
Regarding the offspring of first cousins......there are varying studies...but most say that they only have as many defects as the general population.
As an aside......I always thought that most of my first cousins were nerdy pimply youth....yuck!....except for Mark....he was a dish!
Indi ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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:)
My Gran always used to say that the one single thing that was most influential in preventing interbreeding between families was the bicycle as it allowed people to travel further afield!There spoke a good methodist!
I remember her being horrified that two of my first cousins began a relationship in the late 70's although we did point out to her that it was not illegal.
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We were talking about this at work recently, and a surprising number of people were convinced that it was still illegal for 1st cousins to marry ::)
So much for Henry's decree!
Jane
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Apparently the Roman Catholic Church requires cousins to get special permission before they marry.
Stan
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Hi All: Not to push the discussion too far afield, but forget the first-cousin dilemma. If you want marital/genetic/legal complications to ponder, check out the lyrics to the song, "I'm My Own Grandpa," written in 1948 by Moe Jaffe and Dwight Latham.
The song was recorded many times over the years. A great and appropriately Appalachian bluegrass version was done in the 1990s by David Grisman and his band. Grisman recorded in Jerry Garcia's offshoot acoustic bands as long ago as 1975.
Willie Nelson also recorded the song, as did The Muppets, who, with Miss Piggy's affection for Kermit the Frog, have their own interspecies problems to deal with.
Fair use permits me to post only the first verse of the song, which has been changed to the third person:
I met a guy today I knew years ago, when he was 23,
And he was married to a widow who was as pretty as could be.
Now this widow had a grown-up daughter who had beautiful hair of red,
And this guy's father fell in love with her and soon the two were wed....
But here's a link to the rest of the lyrics
http://www.epicsol.org/~jnelson/own_grandpa.lyrics
Cheers,
John :o :o :o
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I think from all the answers here (and elsewhere) that we have now established that first cousins can and did marry.
Discussion now closed. :)
Nell