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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Gadget on Thursday 01 February 07 15:04 GMT (UK)
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His daughter told me that my 1st cousin (twice removed), James Donald Wilson, was supposedly part of a group of solidiers who were engaged in planning to tunnel under the Channel during World War 1.
In civilian life he was a mining surveyor.
Does anyone know about such exploits and, if so, what regiment would be involved?
I attach a badly damaged photo of him (front centre) and his pals taken around about that time and a possible medal card for a J. D. Wilson.
Grateful for any info and comments re card.
Thanks
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Sorry can not help you with regards to the Channel Tunnel bit but the card is for a driver of the Army Service Corps (A.S.C) which later became the Royal Army Service Corps R.A.S.C.). Hope it helps in some way.
old rowley
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Thanks OR - it's not his card then :( :( :( I'll have to have another look. The problem is that my uncle was also a J D Wilson. I've got him and thought that this one looked a poss. It was on the same sheet.
Would Royal Engineers be a likely Regiment for this activity?
Gadget
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There is an article about the Channel Tunnel in the 1929 Encyclopaedia Brittanicas. At the time, a scheme was seriously being studied, but the cost was estimated at 25-30 million pounds. :)
An electric railway was proposed from the Dover terminus to a new station at the junction of Waterloo Bridge Road and Stamford St in London. The French end was to emerge at Sangatte.
Following enthusiastic beginnings in 1875, successive Governments opposed the scheme. "Bleriot landed his aeroplane at Dover in 1909 and a spontaneous movement in the House of Commons resulted in the formation of a Tunnel Committee which ultimately numbered over 400 MPs under the chairmanship of Sir Arthur Fell. The Labour Party joined en bloc, and Mr Asquith promised to have enquiries made. Then the World War broke out and nothing could be done. Mr Lloyd George promised to make more enquiries." In 1924, all the living ex-prime ministers met but rejected the scheme after 40 minutes discussion.
Marshall Foch said in 1922 "If the tunnel had been built, it might have prevented the war and in any event it would have shortened its duration by half. "
Finally , "The French C.T. Co. has a concession from their government and can resume work at any moment, but The English Channel Tunnel Co. can do nothing without an act of parliament."
References to the article include "Military Aspects of the Tunnel", Lord Sydenham of Combe, June 29th, 1914 and "Channel Tunnel", paper read to the Royal Soc. of Arts, Dec17th 1913 by A. Fell M.P.
All the diags. for the article were provided by the E.C.T.Co.
Fred
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Thanks Fred :)
This story really concerns my cousin's exploits in WW1. His daughter is adamant that there was some plan to tunnel during the war.
He wouldn't have been involved either before or after 1914-18 because he was employed at the local colliery.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/background/tunnel.htm#1914
Hope the above link answers all your questions. Kent has lots of local history web sites that can help you with this topic.
regards panda
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Thank you panda :)
It's not clear though that any attempts were made during 1914-18 - in secret ???
If he wasn't involved in a channel tunnel, there must have been some other tunnel :-\
Gadget
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I think there were repeated attempts to get across the Channel, including during WW1. I will have a search for you.
meles
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Gadget,there were Tunnelling Companie,s,men used were either ex miner,s or willing volunteer,s.Army Engineer,s of Surveyor standard, would definitely be used,for direction,depth,and ground type analysis.
This could be a more profitable line of enquiry?
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Thanks, Goggy :)
He definitely served in WW1 though. I'll have a look around. Interestingly that photo has him in civvies - a thought :-\
Gadget
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old soldiers stories eh? ;D
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No definitely not. She showed me some stuff about it a few years ago and it's in my Grandad's Diary.
I wouldn't ask questions about things that I did not have any evidence for without saying that it was a 'story' - see my doubts about my Grandfather being in a Scottish Regiment on this board. There there was doubt. here there is not.
The only thing that is in doubt is what tunnelling. I think the photo is important in this.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
On reading your post last week, hubby was looking over my shoulder and mentioned he thought he'd something in his notebook about a channel tunnel WW1.
He looked out his notebook and viola he found a short note from the local paper that he'd joted down to look up later.
His note has the newspaper headline 'Highway from Dover to France', underneath he's written Channel Tunnel?
However, he did not actually read the article as he was looking for something else. He thinks it was sometime in 1917.
Now that I see you are still researching this topic, we'll have a look in the library, might not be until early next week though, to see if we can seek-out the article. :)
Anne
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The only other tunnels I can think of in the area are under Dover Castle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/do_see/castles/dover_tunnels.shtml
Perhaps he was involved in getting them ready for a possible invasion?
Betty
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Thank you both :-*
I'll check up the link Betty as soon as poss.
Anne, I would love it if you could find some more about it in your local library. Thank you ever so much
Regards
Gadget
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Well the link that Betty gave certainly suggests that something was going on :)
The White Cliffs are among England's most celebrated sights, yet hidden inside them is a fascinating and secret world. Below, deep underground, is an extensive network of tunnels first made in the Napoleonic Wars.
Gadget
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I have just realised that you asked which regiment. I would have thought it would have been the Royal Engineers.
meles
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Thanks meles :)
I thought that but so far haven't found a match there. I was wondering if he might have been seconded to special duties or something along the lines that goggy suggested.
Gadget
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Way to go Gadget!
Leave no tern unstoned.Also ref;http://ww1.1914-1918tunnelcoyre.htm,and Harribob,s reply to "Shealer" March '06.
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THanks goggy :)
My terns are stoning.
Gadget
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tunneling companies were used to dig mines under the german trenches, which would then be exploded before an offensive, miners were drafted into special tunneling companies for this purpose
in 1917 Britain was so short of men they reduced the number of battalions in a brigade by 25% in order to make up the shortfall, very non-combatant unit was combed through to find fit men that could fight at the front, the call-up age (conscription was in force, everyman was deemed to have been enlisted) was raised to 45 (IIRC)
can you really imagine that they would put resources into digging a channel tunnel? how many men with picks and shovels would that entail?
i think he may well have been involved in offensive tunneling ( see the battle of messines) but i suspect a channel tunnel is a distortion through time
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Thanks harribobs. I heard about them and wondered about it when she told me but she was adamant. I wonder if he was involved in the organisation of these tunnels and was also part of a team looking into the feasibility of a CT ???
That photo looks like a team of some kind.
He was born 1890.
Note in my first posting that I said a group who were involved in planning a Channel Tunnel not constructing it
Gadget
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Hi gadget
there was certainly something going on then. National Archives has a 1913 pamphlet "Channel Tunnel Full details of the present scheme- Military, Engineering,Financial" Issued by the Channel Tunnel Company Limitd Dec 1913.
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I'll go see right away.
I was told all this about three years ago and I wish I'd paid more attention at the time but then I was more concerned with locating our common ancestors. Now that I'm starting to write up the story of the whole family, I'm faltering on this one :(
You've given me a real lead. Thank you :)
Gadget
Just had a wee look and there are at least 3 War Office and 4 Admiralty sets of documents about Channel tunnelling 1913-1920
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Can you access "The "Times online - there would probably be something in there ???
Casalguidi
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Gadget
Found the article in the Dundee People's Journal, July 1st, 1916. Here's the condensed version:
Headline: A Highway From Dover to France ... sub-headline 'Big Scheme Revived':-
A highway from Dover to France, what an asset it would have been in this war! .... Paradoxically as it may seem, but for our fear of war in the past we might have had such a highway today in the Channel Tunnel.
It will be no use for this war but the question of constructing it is nevertheless to be raised at once. Mr Arthur Fell, MP, the Chairman of the Committee of politicians who are the champions of the scheme has given notice in the House of Commons of the following motion:-
"That in the opinion of this House, the progress of the wishes demonstrated the great advantage which would have accrued to this country and the Allied Powers of a railway tunnel beneath the Channel had it been constructed and been in operation, and that the time had arrived for His Majesty's Government to support the proposal so that the final plans may be prepared and the powers obtained to proceed with the work as soon as the war is over and the necessary labour is available.
It is many years since this was first promulgated ... in 1874 the French Government granted permission for the construction of works at the Calais side. Progress was made but in 1882 the scheme collapsed when the tunnel on the Dover side was stopped after 2000 yards ... Again a year later, the Joint Committee of the House of Lord's and Commons recommended the abandonment of the scheme on military grounds.
NB: note the date: Another article on the same front page headlined 'Will The War Collapse' sees Lord Derby suggesting that "a dramatic end (to the war) is in prospect". The Germans who were supposedly losing 10,000 men a day at that point would soon be losing around 25,000 a day between the British, French and Russian onslaught on them.
Whilst the people read their Saturday paper that day, thousands of British soldiers were already dead on the battlefields of the Somme.
Therefore, Gadget your relative was most likely involved in the plans to reinstate the Channel Tunnel. Perhaps Hansard or even the 'Times' around this period of time will be more revealing.
Anne
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Thank you very much for that Anne :)
Now to do some digging myself :)
Gadget
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8) Happy Diggin'
Hope your find some more substantial evidence to reveal to us.
Anne
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A Channel tunnell, c1914/18, with the technology of the time it would have taken 4/5 years, ie the Woodhead tunnel, 3 miles took 2 years in the 1950s . bodger
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Miners were used to tunnel under the enemy front line during WW1, but I can't imagine anyone attempting to dig a tunnel under the Channel during wartime.
The original plans to dig a tunnel were abandoned because of the Napoleonic wars - they were worried that the enemy might use it to invade.
Apart from anything else, with the technology available to them at the time, the war would have been over and WW2 looming on the horizon before the tunnel was finished!
Bill
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Could I just reinforce what I keep saying - it was PLANNING a Channel Tunnel not digging it. My cousin was a mining surveyor.
Gadget
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A Channel tunnell, c1914/18, with the technology of the time it would have taken 4/5 years, ie the Woodhead tunnel, 3 miles took 2 years in the 1950s . bodger
I'm not sure that comparison works for me. Isn't the Woodhead tunnel mostly in Millstone grit? That is a good bit harder than the chalk which it was proposed to tunnel for the channel.
I bet in the war there were investigations into all sorts of things which were not found to be practical. Arguing that the war would be over before it was finished only works because we know when the war finished!
I wonder if your cousin was a member of some professional body/club Gadget? Would there have been something written when he died? The Geol Soc of London does that and I should think there must be more societies that did.
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That's a good observation, Gardener.
And Gadget, if there is a Geological Society link, do let me know, as I work only a few hundred yards from their building and would be happy to pop in one lunchtime.
meles
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Hi everyone
I PM'ed Gadget about this yesterday, on the second series of Coast there was a piece on this very subject. If anyone has the DVDs of the series perhaps you would like to rewatch it.
The delectable Neil Oliver investigated and actually visited the tunnel that was started from the Dover side in the 1880s which was built some way and then stopped.
Presumably this is the tunnel that was reinvestigated in the WW1 period. Incidentally as Gardener says chalk is extremely easy to tunnel and the Coast website has an illustration of the Chalk in the SE - North and South Downs that go under the channel and come up again in France exactly today where the tunnel is.
Kerry
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I've been up since 3 am watching a game so have not really had time to digest everything that has been said on this thread this morning. I'll have a good read through again and certainly take up the positive suggestions.
Thank you
Gadget
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Hi
According to the DPJ of July, 1917, the tunnel would take 3 - 4 years to build, at a cost of £16,000,000, and a length of 21 miles. Presumably the digging would be from both ends of the channel.
Anne :)
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That sounds very much as if there was a feasibility study, Anne. In fact it shows that there definitely was. I now just have to find out what role my cousin played in the investigation.
It would be nice if someone could recognise any of the men who are with him in the photograph. It might provide more leads.
Thanks Anne
Gadget
PS - now it might be time for Bob's joke ;D
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I've got watery eyes from tiredness but I have found a number of references to this on A2A including In The Lloyd George Papers, correspondence 'From the HC Channel Tunnel Committee' to the Prime Minister' dated 12th November 1919.
Gadget
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According to the DPJ of July, 1917, the tunnel would take 3 - 4 years to build, at a cost of £16,000,000, and a length of 21 miles
In reality, the tunnel had to be somewhat more than 21 miles, and it had to extend a short distance inland at either end; the actual distance under the sea is 24 miles and the total length of the modern tunnel is a little over 31 miles.
Also, when finally built with the benefit of late 20th century technology, it actually took 7 years, with digging taking place simultaneously from both sides.
There is a history of the project here: http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/background/tunnel.htm.
Regards, Bill
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Hi, if you google "Arthur Fell, Channel Tunnel", there are a few more clues from the First World War period-
Under "Corresp. & Papers of FM Sir William Robertson, CIGS 1915-8,1st Bt, 1860-1933 collected by his a-d-c Brig. Gen Cecil Courtenay Lewis" in the Liddell Hart collection at Kings College, London, there are several letters about the tunnel:
Jul24 1917- letter from WR. to Arthur Fell, chairman of House of commons CT Commitee
Jul 29 1917-WR unable to comment on tunnel as "Still under discussion by the cabinet."
Jul 31 1917- letter from Courtenay Lewis to Sir Francis Fox of Douglas, Fox & Prtnrs, thanking him for his recent Tunnel lecture before the Royal Geog. Soc.
Jul 24 1917-Letter to WR from Rt Hon WJ Hicks, MP emphasising that the tunnel can only be attempted at the end of the war to create jobs on demobilization of the army.
It looks as if it was a hot potato around July 1917.
The link is as follows: www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/robertson/ro45-08.shtml
It might give a few more names to follow up :)
Fred
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Thanks Bill
Panda in message #5 of this thread gives the same link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,213490.msg1092472.html#msg1092472
I think there is danger of repetition creeping in.
Thanks Fred - I'm investigating
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Gadget
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Sorry, I got the link slightly wrong- I think it works now! :-[ Fred
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It works very nicely Fred :)
I think I might have enough to go on for my personal investigations now and need to find my cousin's name or other pointer mentioned in some of these references.
Thanks you all very much for your interest and leads.
Gadget