RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: maggie65 on Monday 05 March 07 20:04 GMT (UK)
-
Looking for the birth of Charles Allen born supposedly in Belfast Jan 1906. I have his marriage details but looking fo his mothers name. Have Paid for a search at groire already and they say he is not there. Where else would he be was born in Antrim and married at Dunluce . He came to Scotland in the 1930s and died in Scotland . He was an evangelical minister. Have his death details, whci gave his birth as 1906 in Belfast.
Anyone have ideas on where to look next?
Margaret
-
Ulster Historical foundation have an 1897 and a 1912 birth in County Antrim, but none for 1906. It would cost £6 total for you to check both these records. Scottish Death certificates usually include the mother's name.
-
His death certificate in Scotland gave no mothers name which was very surprising. I had a look at that site in ireland and didnt think to order the births as they were not the appropraite ages. But maybe his age was not correct on his death certificate.
-
It is quite possible his death age was out. Does his age at marriage correspond with 1906 too ?
-
Hi Maggie65
How sure you are about Charles Allen's birth year? And his birthplace?
Sometimes the names may be not what you expect it to be especially with the surname.
But in your case it sounds like it should be straightforward--it must be either birth year or birthplace that may be not what you thought it to be.
May I suggest this website where you can have someone look up in the Irish GRO indexes to see if your ancestor was in there? It is: www.familyulster.com
Just one pound per year to look up in.
You can try 1905-1906-1907 or just 1906.
I wish you the best of luck and every success in finding him.
Kind Regards,
Tees
PS Irish GRO will only follow the information listed on your application to the letter. That is why I found out the hard way that I keep getting "no record found" certificates from them. Having the information from the GRO indexes is helpful as it will pinpoint an entry you are seeking.
-
doesnt give ages on irish marriages certificates what a shame!
Margaret
-
Maggie65,
Some Irish marriage certificates do give ages, many of them were not as some person(s) were not sure about their ages. So they usually have "FA" in the age column! That means they are over 21.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Thanks for clarifying that for Margaret, Tees, I was about to do the same.
Margaret, can you share the name of Charles's dad? Who was the informant on Carles's death certificate, if not a family member that may explain them not knowing his mother's name?
-
Charles Allens Fathers name was David. The story goes that Charles Allens Father died in WWI. His mother died too and he was brought up in an orphanage in Antrim. This is my friends In the US ancestry who I am trying to help and she does not know much about computers . For some reason the mothers name was never known. Thats why we are trying to find the birth certificate to see who she was. Her name is not given on his death certificate. Its a big mystery. He became an evangelical minister and came to Scotland in the 1940s. Its driving me crazy trying to find his mother.
-
Hi Maggie,
OK--Let's start with this one:
1) When did Charles Allen marry to whom and where? How old was he at the time of marriage? (Is this marriage entry where it shows no age, correct?)
2) Is your friend very certain that he was brought up in the orphanage? If so, perhaps she could try and write to the orphanage to see if they have any record on him?
3) How old was Charles Allen at time of his death?
I will try and help you with this.
Cheers,
Tees
-
Maggie, there were a number of David Allen's who married in the County Antrim area in the years around 1906 so it may be a little tricky tying one down to your Charles until you can share a bit more info (see Tees questions above). Did both the marriage and death certificate record the father as David?
-
Maggie,
There is a lot of David Allen marriages in Co Antrim in the right timeframe.
So, I am afraid that you would have to use this service on www.familyulster.com to look up on Charles' birth in the indexes.
You only pay one pound for each year to look up and they will tell you whether he is in there or not.
It will enable you to obtain his birth entry and it will tell you of his parentage.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hi Maggie,
Another suggestion would be to post David Allen's death in WWI to see if he had served in the Army or the Navy?
David Allen is a bit too common to start with. That is something we have to consider about.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
I have checked the CWGC website and can see about 20 David Allen deaths in WW1. At least two were from Irish regiments which could indicate they came from Ireland, although it is not always the case (likewise, some men from Ireland joined English, Scottish, Welsh etc regiments). The most likely to try are the two who were with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, as they certainly did recrute in the Antrim area at that time. For a small donation, you can ask the Inniskilling Museum to check what they have on file for both these chaps. You never know, the records may make mention of his child/ren.
-
Charles Allen was married 1931 in The town of Moyle Dunluce. He married Mary Elizabeth Hunter. The Park priestland was Marys address. They were presbyterian. No ages given and his father was noted as David Allen Labourer. Didnt say if he was deceased at that time. I have that cert from Ulster ancestry.
Charles died in 1969 in Dunfermline at the age of 63, said his birthday was Jan 18th 1906 , On the obituary it claims he was born in Belfast.
They dont know the name of the orphanage supposed to be in Bangor but I had searched that on the internet and was told that the orphanages there were no more.
I searched on Scotlands People looking for his birth just in case he was born in Scotland but no luck.
It would be great if you could find something.
-
Hi Maggie!
Thanks for answering my questions--saw the marriage entry on your Charles. It is correct after all.
Did he have any brothers or sisters--does your friend know of?
It sometimes help in narrowing Allen births.
Since you have a specific birth date, he may be registered very late. Again, it is worth a try to put a request with www.familyulster.com and they will check the birth indexes. Perhaps his first name was not Charles but a middle name at the time of his birth?
OK--I think you would have to put a post on Co Down board ask anyone knows of the orphanage in Bangor to see if anyone could help you out.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Have you already asked Family Ulster to check the index for the Quarter before/after the birthdate you have?
-
I did post a message on the antrim board and was told there were no orphanages in Bangor.
I will try the website you mentioned and see what I can come up with.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
-
Hi Maggie,
Be sure to ask for the Allen/Allan, Charles births.
Sometimes the surname was mistranscribed! A and E sometimes looked similar in the handwriting.
Do let us know how you get on with the FamilyUlster.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
I just applied for the birth in 1906 For Jan. Didnt ask for the quarter later oops.! I had sometime ago paid 11 pounds to the Groni website in ireland to search for his birth in 1906 and they told me he wasnt there. I hope this site can come up with something.
-
You did just ask for the £1 index check I trust? If so, Family Ulster will usually check each quarter for the given year, as sometimes births were registered late.
-
Yes I did that. Thanks
-
Heard back from family Ulster. Found 1 charles Allen in 1906 in Lisburn in the last quarter. Should I ask for the details???
Margaret
-
Hi Maggie,
So pleased you finally got a positive result this time!
Go for it! As you were confident that he was born in 1906 but you were not sure where in the North of Ireland.
If you want a copy of his birth entry, I would order from the Irish GRO with a stipulation that he was born in the registration district of Lisburn and with a specific quarter in 1906. You will get one for only 6 euros.
OR you can use that 11 pounds you paid for. By telling them, that you have further information and asked them to re-consider your previous payment in the light of the new information.
I am surprised at that the GRO in Belfast told you there is no Charles Allen in the first place.
Or ask the same website, www.familyulster.com, to give you a transcription of his birth entry for only 4 pounds.
Let me know if you need the website for the Irish GRO (Ireland, not Northern Ireland).
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hi Maggie,
I forgot to add that you do not have to supply the parental information this time.
I suspected that is why you were unable to obtain his birth entry from the Belfast GRO.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Thanks Tees. I will try and see what they say about my previous Payment of 11 pounds. If not I will try the other sources/ Yes please would like the website of the Irish site.
Magaret
-
Hi Maggie,
You are more than welcome.
Do try and show the proof you have paid for previous application on your Charles Allen.
Here is the website you wanted: www.groireland.ie
I wish you all the luck and every success in finding your Charles Allen.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hello Tees. Looked through all the notes I had on Charles Allen and saw that I had already got that birth in Lisburn from Emerald ancestors site. The father was Samuel on that one so not ours. So back to searching . Must be a different year. Too bad.
Margaret
-
Hi Maggie,
If I were you, I would have to widen the search on Charles Allen births.
From what I have seen so far, you have a flimsy information to work with.
Or he may not born in Belfast but somewhere else in the Island of Ireland.
I think Scotmum has a good suggestion that you need to follow up on: try to find his father's army papers--you never know if you are in the luck--it may list his wife and children.
Again, does your Charles had any brothers or sisters you know of? Or any relatives?
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hello. Charles was an only child from all I hear. I have looked at the site that gives details on casualty deaths and they all seem to be too young to be the father of Charles, but its worth a try anyway.
I have suggested to my friend that she go to the Familysearch centre in Baton Rouge and look up the indexes for the years before and after 1906. I think we have done all we can at the moment. She says his mother was very reluctant to discuss the birth of Charles for some reason. She doesnt know what happened to the family papers when his mother died as she was in the US at that time and the mother was in a nursing home when she died. All a big mystery.
Thanks for all your help.
-
Hi Maggie,
You said that his mother were reluctant to discuss??
I just have a sudden idea, right now,--what was his mother's name??
I will go to other database and see if the name match to any Allen marriages.
If we are lucky to find the marriage, I would use the parents' names and send for the birth entry in the range of years to the GRO.
They will be glad to do it as long as you have the parents' names.
How about it? I am not ready to give up on you and your friend.
This is my "last" attempt. :)
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Mother was Mary Elizabeth Hunter. They were married in Dunluce 1931. Their son was born 1933 in Park Priestland. He was an only child . The son was in the merchant marines in Scotland and away a lot of the time so when ever he asked anything about his fathers parents he was always told oh we dont know. I guess people were not as open in those days about family matters! He thinks his mother just made up the year of birth of Charles on his death certificate as she didnt really know. Did say his Father was David and that does show on the marriage cert. She also said he was born in belfast but didnt know anything about his mother as she died young. You would think he would be somewhere.
Thanks for helping. I dont know what else to tell my friend. Ive run out of ideas. This is my friends husbands ancestors
Margaret
-
Hello I might have mislead you. It was Charles wife that was unwilling to discuss the birth of Charles as she didnt really know anything except that his dather was David and died in WW1. I notice on the marrage cert if does not say whether his father was deceased at that time like it does on Scottish records.
Its such a confusing history and not much to go on.
-
Charles Allens Fathers name was David. The story goes that Charles Allens Father died in WWI. His mother died too and he was brought up in an orphanage in Antrim.
Could father's name have been Charles instead of David?
Private Charles Allen killed in action 18 Nov.1914 age 29, wife Matilda Allen of Liscolman, Dervock. Born Belfast. Employed in spinning mill before war, left wife & 3 children.
Have more information if you are interested.
-
Hi Aghadowey
Would that information includes names of the children?
It would confirm whether this is the one Maggie is seeking for her friend's husband.
It is getting more interesting as this quest progressed!
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Unfortunately names of his children not listed.
-
Hi again,
Interestingly, there is no Matilda being married to a Charles Allen.
But I see a Matilda married to Charles Edward Allen but it was in 1921???
But this Charles died in 1914.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hi Aghadowey,
What a shame that the records does not list names of the children.
It would make it a bit easier for Maggie to narrow down.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
A Charles Allen m.1921 Co.Derry to Matilda Ethel Lynch.
However, on UHF site there's a Charles Allen marriage 1910 Co.Antrim.
1912 a Matilda Allen, Liscolm signed Ulster Covenant.
-
See photo at www.freewebs.com/snake43/virtualmemorialag.htm
There is a little bit of info here but I have more details.
-
Hi Aghadowey,
That 1910 Charles Allen marriage showed it was to a Isabella Gray in Lisburn, Co Antrim/Down.
Regards,
Tees
-
Only knowledge they have is the Fathers name was David, written on both the marriage certificate and his death cert in Scotland. No mention of a charles as being the fathers name.
Margaret
-
Had another thought. Charles and his wife visited the US before he died in Scoltand. Must have had to have a passport to do that and his date of birth would have been on that. I wonder if the passport department in the UK would give out any details on something that far back or if they would even have kept those records this long. Just a thought
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
I suppose so--when was their visit to the US? Perhaps there is some kind of records on their arrivals or departures to/from the UK??
I have seen somewhere on this site there was a link where you can check if your ancestors was a passport holder.
I remember now--let me go and get it for you. I could not remember the name of website but it is a good site.
Worth a try!!!
Good idea, he has to prove his identity by giving them his birth record--you are spot on this one.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hi again,
Found that site--it only runs up to 1903.
Does your friend's husband know when he visited the US?
It will be helpful to know which years he came here so we can look at any shipping/plane records (very likely to be shipping).
This site is going to take some time to update until 1960!
Now they are at 1909.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Oh it was in the late 1950s that he visited the Us and no doubt by plane then, so that site wouldnt help much. Too bad. Dont know if you can check that as there are probably security rules that prevent you from doing that for recent years. Was a good idea. Cutching at straws here!!!
Margaret
-
What you have is Charles Allen with father killed WWI. Father's name of David may not be correct.
Only Allen from Bushmills/Ballymoney area killed in WWI is Charles Allen, died 1914, leaving wife and 3 children. Belfast was mentioned- & Charles Allen (d.WWI) born in Belfast. Still think it's a possiblity.
Charles Allen (d.1914) had 2 brothers also in War, William & ?.
Expect to get to library early next week and see if I can find the names of Charles Allen's 3 children, etc.
-
Hi Aghadowey
Good idea--perhaps the death notices would be more helpful in pinpointing the relationships amongst the names on the site you posted here.
Good point about the information may be "wrong" about the name of the father.
OR he did not serve in the WWI but died in Belfast during the WWI. This is another angle we have to consider.
Really, the only thing is to explore a bit further with the death notices. It would be grand if all of this information is digitalised.
Or check with PRONI to see if they have any records from the orphanages from this time period. Hopefully, they do have a Charles Allen in one of them. That will clinch it.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
cant thank you all enough for all the trouble you are going to to find Charles. Had another thought . Is there not a 1911 census for Ireland. Surely Charles must be on that somewhere. Tried to get information from the Uk passport office, they wont give any details over the internet and possibly would be unable to divulge any information as it is private information. E mailed the presbyterian church in Bangor to see if they knew of any orphanages in Bangor in the 1900,s, so will see if they respond.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
The UK Passport Office does not keep old passport applications. I think there was a strict rule on disclosing the information within specific time. I am not sure about this one.
Yes, there is a 1911 Irish Census--the trouble is there is no online base where you could look it up like Ancestry site. You have to access to it in person via PRONI or the National Archives in Dublin--but you can access to it if you know which reels to order from the LDS centre.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Just heard from my friend. She went to the LDS in Baton Rouge today and they advised her to start with the 1911 census index so they have ordered it in for her. Will take 2 weeks. Be interesting to see what she finds.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret!
Wonderful! Do keep us posted on how she get on with this elusive Charles Allen.
She would have to search many reels! I empathise with her.
Regards,
Tees
-
i see you may be looking for a charles allen'
i have one in my research
his dad was killed in world war 1
he has 3 sister's and his mum was expecting charles when his dad was killed so he never saw him.
-
Hello What was his fathers name. The one I am looking for his Father was David. Didnt have any sisters that I know of.
Margaret
-
his name was also charles sorry
-
Hi All,
Have you considered a possibility that Charles' father may have a nickname or wrongly informed that his father's name was David when it was supposed to be Charles?
I just realised now--how can your friend know where Charles was in NI in the 1911 Census?
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Hello Tees. All they know is that the name was David. I think my friend is hoping that Charles will be somewhere in Antrim in 1911. I have no idea how the Irish censuses look or if they are as easy to look up by name as they are in the Scottish ones. That might be a bit harder than she is hoping as she has not much experience in working with computers or michrofiche. She is looking forward to trying to find him there. I have also tried to find him at the college where he trained in the ministry. That was Birkenhead Bible college in England but all I have been able to find out is that that college is now closed down and has houses on that site.. Ive also tried the Church of Scotland where he eventually became a lay missionary but they have not answered my requests.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
It is awfully nice of you to help your friend out! Awaiting your next post with much interest on what your friend finds at the LDS centre.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
I suggested on 10 March that Charles Allen's father might not have been David!
1911 Census index????- don't think there is a name index to 1911 census. Suspect that the '1911 census index' will be an index to census districts.
Checked 1901 Census the other day and no Allens in Liscolman or anywhere in Dervock district.
Zander- would be interested in information on Charles Allen d.WWI that you mentioned. Think he might be the one I think is Charles Allen's father.
-
Hi All,
I concur with Aghadowey about David not being Charles' father. I honestly believe Charles did not know his father's name so he probably thought it was David.
I think we would like to hear a bit more about the Allens which sounds about the right ones for your Charles from Zander. Do give her a chance to share with us--you never know what she has to tell us.
The reasons for thinking it is the right family:
1) Father died in WWI
2) Charles was born after.
3) Widowed Mother unable to support children for some reasons unknown to us
We can trace all the steps and try to find out why the forename David comes in the whole scheme of things here.
I am sure there is a good reason for the name David--perhaps an elderly male relative in the family or a kind father figure named David that Charles knew very well.
This is the way we can trace him to the 1911 Census to see if the information fits or not. We can be "detectives" on this one.
Do give Zander a chance, will you please?
Regards,
Tees
-
Thanks Tees. Be interested in knowing who this Charles is. Have to remember though that the Charles I am looking for was married in 1931 in Dunluce. Doesnt specify his age on the marriage certificate but if we go by the ages of being born after 1914 it makes him very young at the marriage.
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
It does not hurt to ask Zander for further information, will it? We need to cover all the possible angles.
If this mother did die later on as you said, then we may be looking at the right family. We need to wait for Zander to get back to us with more information on this Allen family of hers.
That is probably why he did not give his actual age because he was too young to marry? In these days, you were not required to prove your age to marry.
It does happen.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
My friend looked at the 1911 census at the LDS centre. Only an index. Doesnt give names, only streets. What a disapppintment. I thought it would be showing names. Any ideas why not??
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
It seems that the LDS "expects" your friend to identify which street or address her Charles Allen lived at then get a correct microfilm to view the actual censuses from that area.
That is why they have an index as there are many, many microfilms--they just need to know which ones to get for your friend.
They are supposed to explain all of this to her. If she was in Ireland, there would be no indexes but helpful staff which will look up in their special database to identify correct microfilm to look at (this is at the National Archives in Dublin). It is very difficult for someone to proceed without knowing where one had lived in 1911.
You generally are expected to know which townland they live in or which street if it is in city.
Surprised that the LDS staff did not explain this to your friend in the beginning.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Tees is correct. I said on 20 March that the 'index' probably wouldn't help.
-
Too bad they didnt explain it to her. She has no idea what street they lived in. Baffled what to do next??
Margaret
-
Hi Margaret,
Well...I think we should ask Zander to share further information with you--to see if we can verify the information through other sources since we honestly do not know where Charles Allen was in 1911.
It will be some time before we will be seeing 1901 & 1911 Irish censuses online--a long wait. They are in the process of bringing them online. The only trouble is they could not fix the date when they will get it online and they are starting with Dublin first then adding other counties as the work progresses.
Let's see what Aghadowey has to say on this subject. Do not lose faith!! We are going to find another way to help you.
Kind regards,
Tees
-
Thanks Tees. Think I should ask my friend to order in the films for births in Ireland from before 1906 and after or is that an index too??. I had sent a message to Zander to ask her what she had and she was going to check and see what she had. The mother of the charles that she has was her gg aunt.
Margaret
-
Margaret- if your friend orders the microfilms for birth each district will be divided into quarters so she'll have to order 4 for each year. Even to do that you need to know which district birth would be in.
-
Thanks for that information. I guess thats not a good idea.
Margaret
-
hi sorry about the delay getting back
found out about the charles allen on my side but the bad new's is it is not the same one as mine was never married.he also lived with 3 sisters and his mother.
-
Thanks Zander. Thats that theory shot now.
Margaret
-
Guess we will never find out what happened to Charles Allen. Big brickwall now
margaret