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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: AH on Friday 30 March 07 19:20 BST (UK)
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Hello
I wonder whether anyone could help me get out of a knot I've tied myself into? I am trying to trace the family of Samuel Grierson a farmer in Ruthwell. I have been on the Scottish Government site and have Samules death certificate and he died in 1855 age about 56. His parents as far as I can make out on the death certificate are Joseph Grierson farmer and Isabella Grierson. I then searched for Joseph Grierson and found only one
Joseph Benjamin Grierson son of David Grierson and Agnes Dickson bap. 18/8/1773. I can find no other children and no marriage date.
On an off chance I did a google search and found what seemed to be the same family tree. The only odd thing was they gave the parents of Joseph as Samuel Grierson and Janet Dickson. The odd thing is that these names dont seem to come up on the scotland goverment site? So I thought OK, perhaps the google family tree was wrong. But then I was looking at the Dumfries notice board on sites worth a look at and noticed one that had church graveyards in. I had a little look and there were photographs of the headstones from the Grierson family tree. One slight drawback.....the critical image was difficult to read from the photograph BUT with the eye of faith it did look like a Samuel and ?? Dickson. So now I wonder whether the family tree on the internet was from someone who could actually see the graves but it still doesnt explain why the government site doesnt have the records (or at least why I cant find them). Any thoughts?
Is there anyone out there who lives near Ruthwell church graveyard? Could anyone else follow the churches link
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~dfsgal/
and see if they can read the Ruthwell gravestones (they're on page 4)
Any help gratefully received :)
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Hi AH
Well, you have an interesting one here ;) Your eye of faith is working well, the first stone certainly refers to a Samuel Grierson married I think to a Catherine Dickson. Isabella, in the next paragraph appear to be the spouse of a Joseph Grierson, who may be the one referred to in the last entry on the stone.
I can see one OPR for a birth of a child to a couple with these names in Ruthwell:
JANNET GRIER Christening: 20 JAN 1767 Ruthwell, Dumfries, Scotland
Parents: Father: SAMUEL GRIER Mother: CATHRINE DICKSON
So, your 1855 cert. would potentially be correct. Samuel son of Joseph and Isabella, Joseph having a father Samuel (your Samuel's g/father) and likely name for his grandmother is Catherine Dickson. Your Samuel could have been called after his grandfather (was he first born son to Joseph and Isabella?). What were the names of your Samuel's children?
I don't think you may have found as yet your Joseph's birth/christening entry. The birth may not have been registered or the Old Parish Register may have been lost/destroyed over the years.
Can you post the URL for the Grierson family tree that you saw on Google, maybe that would help determine who this couple are (Samuel and Janet Dickson). I would say that I have see at least 4 Grierson/Dickson family groups so far in my searches in Ruthwell.
I'm sure other people will contribute more!
Regards.
Monica
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This looks like your Samuel's birth or christening entry on the OPRs at SP:
19/03/1798 GRIER SAMUEL JOSEPH GRIER/ISABEL GRIER FR147 M Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0137
And likely siblings:
1 26/05/1807 GRIERSON CATHRINE JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISABELLA GRIERSON FR172 F Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0162
2 08/08/1814 GRIERSON ELIZABETH JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISABELLA GRIERSON FR188 F Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0177
3 16/01/1810 GRIERSON JAMES JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISABELLA GRIERSON FR177 M Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0167
4 11/10/1799 GRIERSON JANET WIGHTMAN JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISABELLA GRIERSON FR154 F Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0144
5 22/01/1802 GRIERSON JOHN JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISABELLA GRIERSON FR162 M Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0152
6 01/07/1804 GRIERSON MATTHEW JOSEPH GRIERSON/ISBELL GRIERSON FR166 M Ruthwell /DUMFRIES 846/ 0010 0156
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Ruthwell is very poor on the Old Parish Register entries for marriages :'( I was looking at the naming order of the children showing Joseph and Isabella, without having found the date of their marriage which doesn't help, from the entries we have, there is Janet Wightman Grierson b. 1798 first and then Samuel b. 1799. Assuming these were their first born children and they followed Scottish naming pattern, Janet would have been after Isabella's mother (first born daughter). There is an entry that would fit for Isabella's christening in Ruthwell with a mother Janet Wightman and father Samuel Grierson (there are a number of Samuel Griersons I've come to learn in Ruthwell at the same time!).
1. JANNET GRIER Christening: 17 MAR 1771 Ruthwell, Dumfries, Scotland
2. ISOBEL GRIERSON Christening: 14 MAR 1773 Ruthwell, Dumfries, Scotland
3. MARY GRIER Christening: 17 SEP 1775 Ruthwell, Dumfries, Scotland
If you could get confirmation by someone checking the actual stones of death years and ages, it would add to the verification.
Regards.
Monica
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Samuel, wife Margaret Underwood and family in the 1841 Census:
Samuel, 40, farmer
Margaret, 30
Joseph, 14
William, 12
Isabella, 10
Margaret, 8
George John, 6
James, 2
Thomas Willie, 30, ag. lab.
Janet Graham, 17, servant
Address: East upper Priestside, Ruthwell
In the 1851 index, Samuel looks to be indexed as Jannet (!) but certainly him with a big family:
Jannet (Samuel) Grierson 54, Farmer Of 50 Aer Aratle & 50 Moosemploys 4 Labs, b. Ruthwell
Margaret Grierson 42, b. St Manga (St Mungos), Dumfries
Joseph Grierson 23
William Grierson 21
Isabella Grierson 19
Margaret Grierson 17
George Grierson 15
James Grierson 12
Samuel Grierson 10
Mary Grierson 6
Robert Grierson 4
Elisabeth Grierson 2
Andrew Waters 15
Address: Uppertown, Ruthwell
Regards.
Monica
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:) I've just found this site http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GRIERSON/2002-09/1031909912 - Is this the one you referred to? Having spent some time this evening on these lines ::), it makes sense with what I have posted here.
Briefly:
Samuel G. (b. 1710, died 1760, "Priestside" Ruthwell), married Janet Dickson (b. 1716, died 1780, "Priestside") = son Samuel Grierson, b. 1745, died 11th June, 1772, Ruthwell. He married about 1764, Ruthwell to Catherine Dickson (b. 1743, died 24th August, 1780, Ruthwell).
Samuel G. and Catherine Dickson = son Joseph b. 30th August, 1764, Ruthwell died 8th December, 1850, "Lanton Moss" Ruthwell. He married Isabella Grierson, daughter of Samuel Grierson and Janet Wightman (Isabella's line is extensively covered).
Joseph G and Isabella Grierson = son Samuel Grierson, born 18th March, 1798, "Priestside" Ruthwell. Died 8th January 1855......
How lucky are you AH to have found both this old post and the photos of the actual graves, which given the lack of official record, are worth their weight in gold :)
If you compare my previous posts with what is showing on this site, it's the same info/lines. Luckily they have been able to read and verify the previous generations.
You owe your Australian cousins a big thanks ::)
Regards.
Monica
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Just ticking off my last check for you. Normally farmers can be relied on to leave wills and testaments ::) Sadly, I can only find a reference to Joseph (first born to Samuel and Margaret Underwood I am assuming):
Grierson Joseph 19/03/1892 Farmer, East Upper Priestside, Parish of Ruthwell, County of Dumfries, d. 01/01/1892 at East Upper Priestside, intestate Dumfries Sheriff Court Refs: SC15/41/23
Regards.
Monica :)
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Thankyou soooooo much! ;D ;D ;D
I had become thoroughly confused and had all but given up getting any further back! The site I saw on google wasnt the link you gave but was the same info so, as you said I owe a big thanks to the people who posted all that info too (still cant quite believe how lucky I've been!)
One last question if thats OK? You mentioned about Scottish naming traditions? I hadnt heard of that before? How does it work? Also the Grier/Grierson relationship.......is it just the obvious to distinguish between the millions of Samuels? ie you add a "son" if he is the son.
Thanks once again :)
AH
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Hi AH
Firstly, in respect of Scottish naming pattern, this can be a useful guide when trying to trace back previous generations. It wasn't always followed in the prescribed order (some couples didn't do it all!), but in the main, a large number did to some degree. It was also customary to use family surnames as middle names for children, which can also provide clues to previous generations:
1st Son named after Father's Father
2nd Son named after Mother's Father
3rd Son named after Father
4th Son named after Father's oldest brother...
1st Daughter named after Mother's Mother
2nd Daughter named after Father's Mother
3rd Daughter named after Mother
4th Daughter named after Mother's oldest sister...
In respect of the 'son' being used as 'son of' that certainly has some bearing on the traditional developement of surnames across Britain. But as relevant is the fact that surnames and their spellings were much more fluid in those times and not as rigid as they are today. Particularly the further back you go, first and surnames can be spelt in a variety of ways (remember the population in the main would have been unable to read and write) and quite often names were written as they were 'heard' for a variety of records. When searching on Scotlands People, for example, I used wildcards for the surname Gr*r* to pick up on any variants.
Regards.
Monica
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Hi, I live in Ruthwell if you want me to check any of the names on the gravestones, athough it looks like have quite a bit of info. from other websites. Let me know what you want checked.
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Hello
It would be absolutely brilliant if you could check the gravestones! It would just make me that bit more confident about everything fitting together and it would check that someone else reads the headstone in the same way I do!
The headstones I'm interested in are the ones on this link
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~dfsgal/
under Ruthwell church and I think the photo is on page four. I am particularly interested in the Griersons but any headstones that refer to any related Dicksons would also be very welcome ;D
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Sorry about the delay in checking the Grierson headstones.
They are as follows:
Samuela Grierson in Ruthwell who died 11th Jan 1772 aged 27 years. Also Catherine Dickson his spouse who died 24th Aug 1780 aged 37 years. Also Isbaella Grierson spouse to Joseph Grierson in Priestside who died 12th Oct 1816 aged 42 years. Also Joseph Grierson son who died at Lanton Moss 8th Dec. 1850 aged 95 years.
In memory of Samuel Grierson Farmer in Priestside who died 9th Jan 1855 aged 56 years. Aslo Mary and Robert, children of above who died in infancy and Margaret his daughter who died 20th Feb. 1861 aged 27 years. Also MArgaret Underwood relict of the above died at Ayr 13th April, 1886 aged 77 years. Also Jane daughter of above died at Ayr 21st Sept. 1886 aged 31 years. Also Joseph Grierson farmer in Upper Priestside died 1st Jan 1892 aged 64 years. Also George John Grierson youngest son of above died at Urana, N.S.W. 4th July 1904 aged 34 years. Also Margaret Landells relict of above Joseph Grierson died 10th Nov. 1911 aged 85 years. Also William James Grierson farmer Priestside died at Rose Cottage, Annan 3rd Dec. 1923 aged 61 years. Also his brother Sameul Grierson farmer Priestside died at Rose Cottage, Annan 28th June 1924 aged 64 years. Both sons of the above.
In memory of Samuel Grierson in Priestside who died 1760 aged 24 years. Also Janet Dickson his spouse who died 1780 aged 64 years. Also Mary Bayiel (or Baxiel) spouse to John Grierson in Ladyhall who died 2nd June 1815 aged 76 years. Also said John Grierson who died at Ladyhall 26th day of July 1817 aged 81 years.
Erected by John Grierson their son.
Hope this helps clarify what is written on the stones. There are various Dickson stones - any other info. on them would help. One was a John Dickson in Summerfield died 1872.
Another was a Thomas Dickson in Denbieyett died 1862. His spouse was Jane Paterson died 1869.
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No the Joseph Grierson who married Isabella Grierson was the son of Samuel Grierson and Catherine Dickson. Joseph and Isabella were my ancestors. I can be found via the Dumfries and Galloway rootsweb mailing list. Irene
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good morning irene,
big huge welcome to rootschat and a most welcoming post to this thread, it will certainly help to clear things up.
Joe
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Hi all,
Regarding the Ladyhall Grierson gravestone, which is worded as follows
"In memory of Samuel Grierson in Priestside who died 1760 aged 24 years. Also Janet Dickson his spouse who died 1780 aged 64 years. Also Mary Bayiel (or Baxiel) spouse to John Grierson in Ladyhall who died 2nd June 1815 aged 76 years. Also said John Grierson who died at Ladyhall 26th day of July 1817 aged 81 years.
Erected by John Grierson their son"
I've seen closeups of this stone (I asked a local guy on findagrave to take some good, clear closeups, which he very kindly did) and the spouse of son John Grierson is Mary Baxter.
Also, there is a mistake on the stone. Not in the transcript of it, which is correct. The mistake is in the age at death of Samuel Grierson (24). He died in 1760 which puts his birth at c.1736. But that would be impossible because his son, John died in 1817 at the age of 81, so he was also born c.1736!!
This has always puzzled me because John had the stone erected for his father, and if his father's age was so glaringly wrong when freshly carved, why didn't he have it corrected?
I read somewhere that John's Will specified that he wanted to be buried with his father, so I can't imagine him saying "Ach it's okay, just leave it" when the mistake was pointed out.
Just thought I'd mention it because I'm a bit nerdy that way! 😁