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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Uncle Reff on Sunday 29 April 07 10:22 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
The attached photograph is of my grandfather Arthur Edward REFFELL.
The only document that I have of his WW1 service is his discharge certificate which states that he was a sapper in the Royal Engineers. His medal card from the NA also confirms that and that he did receive want his medals.
Family tradition however has it that he was in the Machine Gun Guards and the shoulder & collar flashes appear to confirm this, although everything else is Royal Engineers. Pre-war he was a signal box boy on the early London Underground and the discharge certificate also states that in the event he is recalled, he should report to Longmoor, the military railway.
Family tradition also has it that the Machine Gun Guards were nearly wiped out in action.
The RE museum at Chatham have confirmed the RE connection. However I am at a total loss as to why he should have been for presumably a short period in an elite Guards regiment with such a background.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated - John
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Machine Gun Guards most definitely. Cap badge, shoulder flashes, everything says the same story so no doubt.
Yet it's not mentioned on his medal card? Could you post the medal card for us to look at?
Neil
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Here it is...
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... and discharge certificate:-
I should say that the RE Museum were convinced by the signallers badge on his arm.
Many thanks - John
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And finally...
A group RE photograph, my grandfather is third from left, top row.
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Well the medal card is not the most informative I've ever seen :-\
Everything apart from the first photo points to REs, no argument.
Excuse me asking an obvious question, but the Machine Gun Guards photo is absolutely 100% definitely your grandfather? It couldn't be a brother for instance?
Just wondering if anyone else in the family was MGG.
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Hi :)
Enjoyed reading the thread, hope you get your puzzle solved soon.
Your man in the top photo looks every inch a guardsman. He is also a regimental signaller.
Here's a close-up photo of the cap badge for the Guards Machine Gun Battalion.
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Quite a poser this one!!
Is not the second picture also Guards Machine Gun Bn??
They appear to have the requisite shoulder titles...and it is either the bn signals or perhaps the signallers course he went on to get qualified??
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Thank you all for your help on this, I greatly appreciate it.
In answer to neil1821, it is a good question and one I have asked myself today many times. Every time the answer is yes:-
1) My aunt still has his cap badge which is identical to the picture posted by atom12 (thanks)
2) It came from a collection of photographs from my aunt who assured me that it was him
3) He had only one brother, who was in the Northamptonshire Regiment & one cousin who was in the navy. That is all, as far as I know, of my immediate family to be in WW1 - see below
4) I have not found anyone with the same surname who was in the MGG
Sorry, it is quite a problem to me. I didn't want to confuse the issue, but I will do now ;) He is the only other photograph that I have of him in uniform, this time with his cousin Frank who was in the navy. In the interest of confusing future historians, they have swapped uniforms! ???
Thanks once again - John
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Is not the second picture also Guards Machine Gun Bn??
They appear to have the requisite shoulder titles...and it is either the bn signals or perhaps the signallers course he went on to get qualified??
Got to agree with you Scrimnet on the second photo. You can see the Aldis lamps and the signal flag that they used to send morse.
John - On the MIC, there is a William D Reffell No: 86965 MGC,
and also a Charles E Reffell No: 13086 Coldstream Guards. The latter may be a possibility with the photos showing the unit to be the Guards Machine Gun Battalion, unless the names mentioned are all wrong for your relative.
Anne
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Re the photo of him and his Navy cousin, his cap badge is RE on that one.
That photo can't date any earlier than 1918 because of the overseas service chevrons on the right forearm of the naval uniform. So he was presumably RE at the end of the war.
The Naval uniform is that of a Leading Seaman with one good conduct stripe.
His trade badge (right arm) is Leading Torpedoman (I think)
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Re the photo of him and his Navy cousin, his cap badge is RE on that one.
That photo can't date any earlier than 1918 because of the overseas service chevrons on the right forearm of the naval uniform. So he was presumably RE at the end of the war.
The Naval uniform is that of a Leading Seaman with one good conduct stripe.
His trade badge (right arm) is Leading Torpedoman (I think)
I was about to say that isn't a Northamptons badge!! We dont have a crown!! (see left!) ;D (I seem to keep looking for references to that Regt!!!)
Now heres a thought...as the 4th bn Guards Machine Gun Regt was disbanded in Feb 1919, and this chaps chit of identity is dated Oct 1919...Perhaps he was re mustered RE as a signaller between these dates???
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;D what a superb pictures they are!!
( and before anyone has a go at me ;D these are my first ideas)
the first pic all his insignia are clear, sigs qualifed guards mgc
but he's wearing collar dogs, now unless the guards had different regs, that's a post 1922 pic, it doesn't look like one cos his SDs aren't
i wouldn't be surprised if the guards cherry picked an RE that wanted to stay in the army
( back under the parapet)
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;D what a superb pictures they are!!
( and before anyone has a go at me ;D these are my first ideas)
the first pic all his insignia are clear, sigs qualifed guards mgc
but he's wearing collar dogs, now unless the guards had different regs, that's a post 1922 pic, it doesn't look like one cos his SDs aren't
i wouldn't be surprised if the guards cherry picked an RE that wanted to stay in the army
( back under the parapet)
INCOMING!!! ;D
No, not having a go!!! ;D
But, some thoughts?
The last MGG bn was disbanded in Feb 1919, although some returned to the Regts as coy support until 1920.
The 4th Bn was the only infantry bn, as the other 3 were Household Cav.
This chap has his puttees wound as per Inf, not cav so this would place in him the 4th bn.
His AF Z11 marks his discharge as Oct 1919 (partial stamp bottom left)...So there is a gap betwixt Feb and Oct...I don't think they had terminal leave for that length of time in those days!! :o
His discharge chit states RE on discharge, not MGG...Therefore I suggest that he must have been re mustered as an RE signaller prior to Oct 1919...
Also the shoulder titles state "Machine Gun Guards"...They became this in 1917, but in May 1918 they became the "Guards Machine Gun Regt"
So, could that narrow down the date of the photo???
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what about the collar dogs?, he's wearing them in the pic on his own and all the men in the group photo as as well?
i think we might need a guards specialist to look at these
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If we can find a Guards Guru that would be useful....pro tempora...
As his discharge stamp states 1919 and there were no Guards Machine Gun Bns after 1919 (except for the company skeletons for one year)...
Collar dogs may have become generalised on SD after 1922, but some Regts certainly wore them....(Hussars for one! - I am frantically searching my books for Guards pics!! :()
And if the group pic was taken after 1922, I would expect the NCOS at least to have medal ribbons...I can discern none at all - on anyone!!! ???
:D
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And if the group pic was taken after 1922, I would expect the NCOS at least to have medal ribbons...I can discern none at all - on anyone!!! ???
good point!
i don't usually suggest another forum but I think a post on the great war forum is in order! :(
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And I'll put it to my oppos on the European WW1 forum... ;D
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Collar dogs were reintroduced for the 22 Pattern Service Dress.
How ever there were still plenty worn before then either as a unit thing or on an individual basis. Do believe the Guards MGC had collar dogs anway but no reason why collar dogs can not be seen on many WW1 photos in general.
Anyway Guards MGC were disbanded in 1922 when infantry battalions resumed the duties taken on by the Machine gun Corps in the war so these guys were between 1918 and 1922. The badge is the Guards MG battallion formed on 1/3/18.
Due to lack of ribbons especialy in the group photo i would say it is a wartime set of photos.
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Thanks bobbyg...he does appear to be wearing 07 patt SD does he not?
Shoulder pads and pleats on pockets?
As do most of the group photo...
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Well best way to tell between 07 and 22 pattern Service Dress is by the cut and lining, obviously something to do on the actual items rather than a photo. This most likely is the 07 pattern as you say as the unit disbanded in 1922 so were probably never issued the later pattern whilst still extant. The clues you pointed out earlier would to me indicate wartime or immediately post war.
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I have found a pic of Machine Gun Corps chaps, in Passchendale, 1918....wearing collar dogs! I'll scan it tomos...
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Great work scrimnet, really looking forward to seeing it.
A big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this post, I never fail to be amazed at the knowledge & generosity of everyone here.
Have a great (wet) bank holiday - John
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I know this is an old post but I've just come to it and I'm very intrigued. My great uncle was in the Machine Gun Guards.
I can confirm that MGG soldiers wore collar dogs from 1918 when they were badged. That is a definite. They wore identical collar dogs to the Machine Gun Corps. I have even seen a photograph of a MGG private with Machine Gun Guards shoulder titles sewn onto upper arms and Grenadier Guards brass shoulder titles on epaulettes ( I think this was a very early photo - Feb 1918 - when MGG soldiers still felt an affiliation to their parent regiment).
I have never seen a photo of a MGG soldier without collar dogs.
The photo of your man in MGG uniform was taken between late February 1918 and May 1918 (when the MGG were re-designated the Guards Machine Gun Regiment by Royal Warrant and given a different cap badge). Incidentally - he has brass shoulder titles on his epaulettes but I can't make them out.
I agree that the group photo is MGG signal course.
The other photo with Frank Alexander Reffell is definitely RE and I think I can see a signaller's badge on his left arm.
GMGR records are with the Welsh Guards Regimental Museum. It may be worth directing a query letter to them at Birdcage Walk.
All the best,
Simon
With regards to your man:
There are two remote possibles -
Arthur Russell Pte 1432 MGG
Arthur S Ruffell Tpr 8094 Household Btn / GMGR
I must admit that neither are convincing but stranger things have happened.
Seeing as his discharge was from the RE and he was obviously a signaller, one possibility is that he was transferred from the MGG to the RE before departing UK and that is the reason his MGG details are missing from his MIC (again a dubious supposition - but who knows?)