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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: julieann1 on Wednesday 09 May 07 15:31 BST (UK)
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In the household of my ancestor Jean Moffat (nee Carson) in 1851 is a grandaughter who I cannot identify parents for.
Elizabeth Scott, 13, born Ewe, Dms, is living in the household of her grandmother, Jean Moffat, at Corrie Common, in 1851.
She was also there in 1841.
In 1861 she is a housemaid in the household of William Paterson, at Twiglees, Eskdalemuir.
I have hunted everywhere for a birth, marriage or death for Elizabeth Scott, without any luck.
In 1861 another stray Scott turns up in the Moffat family. Ann Scott, 11, b Hoddam is living in the household of her uncle William Moffat (son of Jean). She was still there in 1871.
I have found a Scott household in 1851, with an Ann of the right age:
Ecclefechan
William Scott, head, 50, mail post runner, b Middlebie
Ann Scott,wife,39, b Hoddam
Agnes Scott, 6, b middlebie
Ann Scott, 1, b Hoddam
George Scott, 4, b Hoddam
Jannet Scott, 6, b Middlebie
The parents of this family cannot be found in 1861 and the children are dispersed to various aunts and uncles.
If this is the correct family Ann Scott should be nee Moffat - but I can't find a birth or marriage to back this up.
Any ideas for other areas of research that may help with this?
???
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Hi Julie
Your message has got me going around in circles too - and I like puzzles :-\
I have some sheets of paper in front of me with charts, dates and scribbled names all over them - Scott, Moffat, Carson, Hoddom, Middlebie, etc - and they are haunting me, so I thought I would at least make contact to say that you've not been ignored :)
I'm wondering whether some or one of the grandchildren were illegitimate and carried the father's name (as it was often the case). This might not show up in any baptismal records.
Again have you tried the various forms of Elizabeth - including Euphemia and Elspeth.
It looks as if William and Ann Scott might have died before the 1861 and probably before 1855. I presume that you've checked for deaths.
I'll see if I can figure out any more and, if I do, I'll get back.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi
I haven't got any further on this one. I had a similar problem with another family on my tree, and eventually found out who the child's parents were, but this one has really got me stumped.
I've just sent off for some death records and MI's from the D&G History Society, so you never know, something may turn up there.
Thanks for your interest. it is a good puzzle, isn't it? :) ???
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I do have the KKD MIs if yours venture over there :)
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Hello julieann1,
The main problem seems to be that most of the events took place pre-1855 :( And probably that the families were not members of the Established Church of Scotland (or perhaps didn't baptize their children at all). Only the OPRs of the Established Church of Scotland are on ScotlandsPeople. And, from the Hugh Wallis site, it seems that the relevant parishes are on the IGI but only OPRs - no records of other churches.
At least you do have Elizabeth in the 1861. I suppose you've searched widely in the 1871 (not just in Scotland) for any Elizabeth (no surname as she might have married) born Ewes (or even Dumfries or even just Scotland) around the right time? And, as Gadget advises, trying variants of Elizabeth (including Elisabeth and Eliza ...).
Perhaps another possibility might be to follow up (say) George SCOTT - as you have him in 1861 (I think?) and have his approximate age and his birthplace (I suggest George because George is not as common as the names of the girls, and at least his name wouldn't change with marriage!). If you can locate him in later censuses and perhaps find a marriage for him, you could download the marriage certificate and at least find out (one hopes!) the maiden name of his mother. It wouldn't solve the puzzle but might be a step along the way.
Best of luck,
JAP
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Hi Julie
Clutching at straws time ::)
Do you know whether Jean Moffat (nee Carson) had a daughter called Alice? I don't see anything on the IGI but that doesn't signify.
The reason being that I have found the marriage of an Agnes Scott in Ecclefechan (Hoddom) in 1869. She was aged 30 and her parents are given as Peter Scott and Alice Moffat (dec).
It may not be the family but they could be related :-\
Gadget
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I haven't come across an Alice. The children I have so far for John Moffat and Jean Carson are:
James b 1802
William b 1816
John b1826
Elizabeth b 1821
unknown female unknown date
There must be more - big gaps. John and Jean Carson married in 1800. Jean was born about 1781. JOhn died before 1841. So that gives them 26 - 30 years to be having children.
I have been looking for George Scott, as suggested by JAP, the only likely looking one is,
in 1871:
High St Lochmaben.
George Scott, 23, baker, b Hoddom
Sarah Scott, 25, wife, b Lochmaben
James S Scott, 2months, b Lochmaben
William Scott, 2, son, b Lochamben.
He is in West St in 1881, and appears to have died by 1891, as Sarah Scott is living Queen St Lochmaben, as head of household. Youngest child is 7.
I will look for his death and marriage on Scotland's People later.
Where, if anywhere, does one find Presbytarian and other records? I have one post 1855 marriage on another branch of my family where the banns were read according to the rites of the Presbytarian church. (and the rest of that family has been a right pain to research as the records just aren't there). And how, apart from chance, do you discover if your ancestors were not Church of Scotland?
I'm off to do something completely different now, in the hope that I may have a brain wave while I not thinking about it..
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The Church of Scotland was Presbyterian. Maybe JAP will know if there was another.
Gadget
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Hi again julieann1,
I saw the marriage of John MOFFAT & Jean CARSON in 1800 on the IGI.
But wondered whether it was actually your Jean ... Given that your Jean was listed as 50 (with rounding = 50-54) in 1841 which would make her too young to have been married in 1800? How did you find that the other children you list were from this couple?
That 1871 George is looking good so good luck with the marriage of this couple (presumably George SCOTT & Sarah TWEEDIE from the IGI) and with George's parentage.
The presbyterian Church of Scotland went through all sorts of schisms. Here's a helpful diagram:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html
My lot (from Stirlingshire) were not Established (presbyterian) Church of Scotland but were Associate Session (also presbyterian as you'll see from the diagram) people. Luckily I've found some records for them. Indeed, the records of some Associate Session churches are on the IGI (not mine of course >:( ). But I think it is just luck (at present - though I understand that more and more records are in the process of being indexed by the National Archives of Scotland) whether you find people when they weren't of the Established Church of Scotland (though noting that sometimes the Established Church lot insisted on recording events of 'Secessionists' in their own records so even secessionists can occur in the OPRs and some of mine do! With grumpy comments in the OPRs like "married by a Secessionist"!).
Good luck,
JAP
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Jean Carson ages 20's by the time of the 1851 census, when she is 71.
Where did you find George Scott and Sarah Tweedie?
Just going to have another look on the IGI
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Have just got George Scott's death cert. He died May 1888 Lochmaben, was married to Sarah Tweedie, and his parents were William Scott (deceased), and Ann Scott m.s. Cunningham (deceased).
Which looks like the family I was looking at in 1851 Ecclefechan.
So now I can count them out and am left with:
Elizabeth Scott b 1838 Ewes, living with her grandmother Jean Moffat nee Carson in 1841 and 1851, and housemaid at 'Twiglees' Eskdalemuir, to William Patersn, farmer in 1861.
Ann Scott, b 1850 Hoddam living with her uncle William Moffat, in 1861.
And still can't find either of them after that. ???
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??? M ore confused than ever.
Ann Scott, who was living with her aunt and uncle, William Moffat and Margaret (nee Cunningham), married Francis Martin, 26th May 1871 Dryfesdale. Her usual residence was Stodahill Cottages, correct address for William Moffat. Her parents were William Scott (deceased) and Annie Scott m.s. Cunningham (deceased).
So it would appear that she was Margaret Moffat nee Cunningham's niece, rather than William Moffat.
Which clears up some of the mystery, but still leaves me with Elizabeth Scott, grandaughter in the household of Jean Moffat nee Carson........
Perhaps she wasn't Jean Carson's grandaughter at all????
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:) :D :) Got It!!!
Elizabeth Scott married Robert Davidson in 1861. On the marriage cert no father. Mother given as Janet Yeoman m.s. Moffat. Not born in Wedlock.
Birth of Janet Moffat 21 Jan 1810 Sanquhar, father John Moffat, is the only likely one on the IGI
Janet Yeoman, 30, ind, b Dms
was living with William Yeoman , 10, in 1841, at Caroline St, Langholm.
and at Ewes in 1851 with daughter Mina Yeoman, 16, seamstress, in 1851.
In 1861, she was living Arketon Cottages, Ewes, with daughter Willholmena Yeoman, age 23. Janet is described as Farmer's widow.
So she appears to have had Elizabeth after she was widowed.
Can't find her marriage to ? Yeoman, or Elizabeth's birth.
Thanks you all for your input
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Hi Julie
These OPR birth/christening entries look relevant:
16/02/1827 YEOMAN ELIZABETH WILLIAM YEOMAN/JANET MOFFAT FR325 Ewes /DUMFRIES 825/ 0020 0010
06/04/1831 YEOMAN WILLIAM WILLIAM YEOMAN/JANET MOFFAT FR325 U Ewes /DUMFRIES 825/ 0020 0010
The Elizabeth entry is not obviously the one you are after but just additional info on Janet Moffat.
Regards.
Monica :)
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In 1841, Mina Yeoman age 5 is also living in Langholm like her mother Janet and brother William, with a Jackson family (James and Jane) at address 'Shaw'.
Regards.
Monica
Added: Janet Yeoman is showing an 1806 birth year in 1851 and a Tundergarth birth place - not sure how this fits it with what you have for parent John Moffat and Jean Carson.
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Janet Moffat Yeoman looks to have died in 1865. Her death at age on the index is showing as 'u' unrecorded but should show on the image. Might be worth looking at to confirm parents' details:
1865 MOFFAT JANET YEOMAN F U EWES /DUMFRIES 825/00 0008
Regards.
Monica
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Thanks Monica
I have a marriage for Wilhelmina Yeoman ( amazingly there was another Wilhelmina Yeoman wiht a similar date of birth and a mother called Janet) but I th ink i have the right one.
She married Malcom Clark on 16 June 1868, and her parents wereWilliam Yeoman, farmer, deceased and Janet Yeoman m.s. Moffat deceased. One of the witnesses was William Yeoman.
I will check out the death cert of Janet
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Janet Yeoman's death cert showed her parents as John Moffat and Jean Moffat m.s. Carson. the informant was her son William Yeoman, 4 Marlborough Rd, Lee, Kent.
William married Margaret, is listed on the census as East India Merchant and had several children and several servants!
Haven't found Elizabeth Yeoman yet.
Will follow up these offspring and theirs tommorrow.
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You're getting very close to solving this puzzle, Julie. I await the next installment :)
I'd like to see if Alice fits in anywhere :)
Gadget
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Julie
Just a thought - likely that the Elizabeth Yeoman b. 1827 may have died. She doesn't show on any of the censuses that I could see. More importantly, Janet Moffat used the first name again with the birth of Elizabeth Scott.
Regards.
Monica
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I think you are right, Monica. I can't find Elizabeth at all.
Am trying Wihelmina Yeoman in 1871 onwards, when she was married to Malcolm Clark.
So far no sign
Also, I looked at the family that Wilhelmina was staying with in 1841. The Jacksons. There is a marriage of James Jackson and Jane Moffat 22 May 1834, Langholm. How can I find out if this Jane Jackson nee Moffat is one of John Moffat and Jean Carson's offspring?
Everytime I solve one mystery, another pops up!
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Julie
These are the children showing to Malcolm Clark and Mina Yeoman following their marriage in 1868:
1. WILLIAM YEOMAN CLARK Birth: 20 MAY 1869 Saint Mungo, Dumfries, Scotland
2. ELIZABETH YEOMAN CLARK Birth: 05 FEB 1871 Saint Mungo, Dumfries, Scotland
3. MALCOLM CLARK Birth: 26 APR 1873 Milton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
4. MALCOLM CLARK Birth: 15 JUL 1874 Milton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
From these dates you would think they would most likely be in St Mungo for the 1871 census before a move to Glasgow, but I couldn't easily see them.
In respect of Jean Jackson (Moffat), the best verification would probably be through her death cert. There is this death entry on SP which hopefully will be hers:
1868 JACKSON JEAN MOFFAT F 58 MIDDLEBIE/DUMFRIES 841/00 0025
Regards.
Monica
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Jane/Jean Jackson is still living at Shaw in Langholm for the 1861 Census with husband James and family. Her birth place is showing as Tundergrath, as Janet Moffat Yeoman did which is a good sign ;). Her age for the census is 53, ie. born c. 1808.
Regards.
Monica
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Found also Malcolm and Mina in 1871, spellings as transcribed ::):
Malcom Clerk 37, gamekeeper, b. Alace, Invernesshire
Wiliemerna Clerk 33, b. Ewes
John Clerk 6, daughter (!) b. Innte, Invernesshire
Mary Ann Clerk 5, b. Innte, Invernesshire
William Emma Clerk 1, son, b. St Mungo
Elizabeth Clerk 1 Mo, b. St Mungo
Isabella Halliday 17, dom. serv.
William Johnston 30, gamekeeper
Charles Sanderson 22, gamekeeper
Address: Keeper Cottage, St Mungo
The first couple of children indicate a likely first marriage for Malcom. Did he show as widower on his MC?
Regards.
Monica
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Birth entry for Mary Ann Clark and likely name for Malcolm's first wife:
MARY ANN CLARK Birth: 15 APR 1865 Kingussie And Insch, Inverness, Scotland
Parents: Father: MALCOLM CLARK Mother: GRACE ROBERTSON
There is also an entry for a Jessie (2 actually so likely the first daughter died). Would explain the 'daughter' following the John in 1871 if this has been mistranscribed and should actually read Jessie on the original image):
1. JESSIE CLARK Birth: 16 APR 1862 Kirkmichael, Banff, Scotland
2. JESSIE CLARK Birth: 11 APR 1864 Kingussie And Insch, Inverness, Scotland
The marriage for Malcolm and Grace shows on 15 NOV 1861 Abernethy And Kincardine, Moray, Scotland.
Regards.
Monica
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Thanks Monica. :D
Yes Malcolm Clark was a widower on his marriage to Wihelmina.
I got Jean Jackson's death cert. Her parents were John Moffat, joiner, deceased and Jean Moffat m.s. Kershaw, deceased. The informant was Jean Jackson's husband, so not suprising if he got his mother-in-laws maiden name wrong.
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Julie
From Jean Jackson's DC, can you at least connect it to your family with the occupation showing for John Moffat father (Joiner)?
Regards.
Monica
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Yes, I feel quite happy that she is John Moffat and Jean Carson's daughter.
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:) Another piece in your puzzle.
Regards.
Monica
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Julie and Gadget
Last one from me for now ::) Just following through with Gadget's Alice Moffat who married a Peter Scott. Alice looks to have been illegitimate, mother a Fanny Moffat. This looks like the family group in 1841:
Fanny Moffat 50, washerwoman
Peter Scott 30, Cotton H L W
Alice Scott 28
Agnes Scott 5
Jannet Scott 3
Jean Scott 1
Address: Ecclefechan, Hoddam
Regards.
Monica
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There are mystery Scotts popping up all over the place with this family!
I'll have to type up all my notes into coherent form - getting a bit confused!
Interesting that there is a Peter in that family. Its a name that has cropped up once or twice with the Moffats, but wasn't common at the time
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Hi
Thanks for that info Monica. When I saw the Scott/Moffat marriage I was intrigued. They might be related one way or another :-\
Gadget :)
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I shall have to file that family for future reference. They probably fit in somewhere. ;)
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Hi Julie
Just wondering if you had any more info on William Scott & Ann Cunningham, they are my 3x GGrandparents.
As far as I can gather Anns' parents were Andrew Cunningham & Ann Byers. She had a brother(unknown) & 2 sisters, Margaret and Jannet.
I am at a brick wall trying to find the children of William & Ann, their son George is my 2x GGrandfather m Sarah Tweedie.
There are also Moffats married into the Tweedie line......
Hope to hear from you soon
Regards Jeanie
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Hi Jeanie, William Scott and Ann Cunningham were my red herring in this area, so I haven't got the info on them written down in a coherent form. I did find most of their children livng with various aunts and uncles. I'll get back to you when I've sorted out what I found.
Julie
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Notes on Scott Family
1851: Eccelfechan, Hoddam Parish, ed 1, p8, schd 31, line 3, roll 207. William Scott, head, 50, mail post runner, b Middlebie. Ann Scott, 39, wife, b Hoddam, Agnes Scott, 6, scholar, b Middlebie. Ann Scott, 1, b Hoddam, George Scott, 4, b Hoddam. Jannet Scott, 6, b Middlebie.
In 1861: Agnes Scott, 16, niece, joiners dau, is living in the household of James Scotts, 70, farmer, b Middlebie. Also Helen Scott, dau, 37 b Mddlebie.
George Scott, nephew, 13, living Knowhead, Kirkpatrick Fleming. With Peter Dunlop, 56, carter, b Kirkpatrick Fleming & Maria Dunlop, 59, b Middlebie.
Janet C Scott, 16, niece, b Eccelfechan. 18 High St, Langholm with Mary Little, 61, proprietor of house, b Middlebie. Next door to Alexander Scott, 59, b Westerkirk, woodman & family.
Parents of this family are William Scott and Ann Cunningham (likely to be sister to Margaret Cunningham, who married William Moffat (on my tree). Info from George Scotts death cert.
If you would like me to send you George Scott's death cert, send me a pm with your email.
Hope this helps
Julie