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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: brissygal on Sunday 17 June 07 13:04 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help with finding marriage of John Penrose to Philippa Polglase born 21 Jul 1840 Breage/Germoe? 1841 to 1851 Philippa is in Cornwall. 1861 & 1871 she is with sister in Camborne then in Dalton in Furness, Lancashire. 1881 she is married to John Penrose, in Swansea, Wales with 2 children b 1877 & 1880. Later 2 more sons in Cardiff.
The John I have been tracing (christened 1826 St Agnes) seems now to be the wrong one ??? :'( - I just discovered he married a Jane Martin from St Agnes in 1851. They are together with family in Blowing House, Mithian, Perranzabuloe in 1861. Jane is back in Barkle Shop, Mithian in 1871 listed as widow. Did John die, OR did he desert Jane, later meeting up with Philippa Polglase and marrying her - would fit a family 'scandal story' where she, a teacher, ran off with a travelling minstrel???? ;)
If anyone can help I would be most grateful as we seem to be STUCK. ::) Have quite a bit of info on the John Penrose from St Agnes, and his siblings and parents, uncles/aunts, grandparents, if anyone is interested. :)
Thank you for any help.
Brissygal, Australia 8)
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
No luck so far with the marriage but this looks like her baptism
Breage 21-Aug 1843
Philippa POLGLASE
Parents John and Ann
Residence Germo
Father's occupation Miner
Will continue looking
Barbara
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Thanks - that was fast. :D
I have most of Philippa's details, except the marriage. The children's birth certificates list her as Philippa Penrose (formerly Polglase) so I presume they WERE married. Husband John is listed as a Confectioner if my memory is correct. But which John - there are hundreds of John Penroses in Cornwall. He died in Cardiff in 1902 - would a Welsh death certificate have any significant details that could help? ???
Brissygal 8)
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Hello again Brissygal
No luck with the marriage so far - maybe they didn't get married.
Unfortunately English and Welsh death certificates give no information on parents - unless a parent registers the death or the death is of a child. in which case the certificate will usually state son/daughter of name + occupation.
I think the thing to do about John is to track him back through the censuses making a careful note of his age, occupation and place of birth. Then you will gradually have to eliminate all the John Penroses that don't fit. I will have a look and see what I can establish.
The marriage certificate would have been really helpful of course!
Barbara
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Phillipa Polglase Helston Q2 1878 5C 276
i have trawled through ancestry BMD 1871 - 1881 and this is the only Phillipa Polglase marrying between those years.
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Thanks Toni*. I checked that one out a while back, and that Philipa doesn't marry a John Penrose. I have considered they may not have married, but would the children's birth certificates say "Penrose, formerly Polglase" if there was no official marriage? Could the marriage have been a non-conformist marriage? ??? Would it still have to show up in the bmd registers then? (I presume it would.) Thanks again for any help.
8)
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Hi brissygirl,
Welcome ;D
Hope the marriage turns up. That would certainly be a bonus. Yes non conformist marriages are certainly listed in the index. Hopefully the other Penrose researchers will be able to help with elimination.
For starters tracking the correct John Penrose we find him in Glamorgan 1881 and then Monmouthshire 1891 and Glamorgan 1901. He is not being very cooperative re age age POB unfortunately.
1881 aged 50 born Cornwall Confectioner 69 Eystll St Upper Pentire St Johns Swansea RG11/5355 Folio 12 Page 17
1891 aged 64 born Cornwall Confectioner 28 Park Row Tredegar Bedwellty RG12/4355 Folio 56 Page 12
1901 aged 78 born Truro Cornwall Confectioner 24 Moira St St Mary Cardiff RG13/4980 Folio 90 Page 34
Death in Mar 1/4 1902 11A 223 lists his age as 77
John and Philippa have 4 sons Charles Edwin, Frederick George, Joseph Henry and Richard Thomas
I can see no sign of him in Wales in 1871 so here's hoping he will be a confectioner in England prior to 1881.
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi everyone
I want to join in ... ;D ...I am away for a week ... but have "spoken" to Brissygirl after she finished reading the "Cornish Mystery" .... thought I would post so that I can be in on the search.
I have also checked the marriages...the closest I could come was a Philippa Pascoe to a John Penrose in 1869 . I was wondering if she had been married prior to John penrose and had decided not to say ...LOL
I also checked against the marriage in 1878 that Toni had found to either RT Gilbert or JJ Arthur...looking for a Philippa Arthur or Gilbert marrying a John Penrose ...No luck there either. :-\
good luck ...I will be back
Deb ;D
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Oh Deb,
I was waiting for you to join me all day. :'( Been wondering where you were, a mystery and no Deb about, just doesn't seem right. Have a nice holiday. ;D
Sorry to report I have had no luck in England or Wales I am afraid. No marriage and no confectioner anywhere.............Kris :'(
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1841 census breage
lots of polglase family
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dtrounce/Breage_P.html
OOPS
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Thanks everyone for your help. ;D
I'll list what I already have, to save duplication :)
Stephen Bastian married Elizabeth Gilbert 6 May 1783 Breage. Stephen died before 1841 census.
Stephen & Elizabeth's children, all christened Germoe:
Ann 14 Jan 1798
Thomas 20 Nov 1785, d16 Sep 1786
Margaret 5 Jun 1795
Gabriel 29 Mar 1801, d 17 Apr 1801
Ann Bastian married John Polglase 17 Apr 1822 at Germoe. Ann signed name. John signed X.Photocopy of parish register. Estimate John born 1792-1795. No details of parents or siblings.
1841 Census, Trewethin Common, Germoe, Kerrier-Cornwall (FreeCEN printout and printout of scan of original)
Polglase:
John, M, 45, Copper Miner, b Cornwall.
Ann, F, 40, b Cornwall
James, M, 15, b Cornwall
Elizabeth, F, 15, b Cornwall
John, M, 15, b Cornwall
Ann, F, 13, b Cornwall
Stephen, M, 7, b Cornwall - (Stephen Bastian Polglase)
William, M, 4, b Cornwall
Phillipa, Female, 10m, b Cornwall
Bastian, Elizabeth, F, 80, b Cornwall (Ann's mother)
(Earlier Phillipa born/christened 3 Feb 1833, died an infant.)
1851 Census, Centenary Row, Camborne (I have print of scan of original)
Polglase:
John, Head, Unmarried, 25, Copper Miner, b Germoe
Elizabeth, Sister, Unmarried, 27, , b Germoe
William, Brother, Unmarried, 14, Copper Miner, b Germoe
Phillipa, Sister, Unmarried, 10, Scholar, b Germoe
William Taylor, Lodger, Unmarried, 14, Copper Miner, b Cornwall, Unreadable
(Family split up - have parents died?)
1861 Census, Centenary St, Camborne, St Martins, Redruth-Cornwall(Printout of Free-Cen & printout of scan of original)
Roberts -
Joseph, Head, Married, M, 33, Miner, Constantine
Elizth, Wife, Married, F, 34, b Germoe (Philippa's sister)
John P, Son, Unmarried, M, 5, b Camborne (John Polglase Roberts)
Catherine Ann, Dau, Unmarried, F, 3, b Camborne
Joseph, Son, Unmarried, M, 2, born Camborne (Joseph died in mining accident. Son was Joseph Bastian Roberts.)
Philippa, Dau, Unmarried, F, 1m, b Camborne
Polglase, Philippa, Boardr, Unmarried, Female, 20, Miliner, b Germoe
Now to Lancashire.
1871 Census, Dalton, Lancashire - relying on Elizabeth Roberts' decendent, who confirmed 1861 entry, and gave me 1871 census link. ::) Philip A Paleflase - She is with the Roberts family again. The gt ... grandaughter got this from the Ancestry.com transcript. View of original shows Philip A should be Philipa, and Paleflase is actually Polglase. This is recent contact, don't have full details yet. My contact's line is through the Joseph and Joseph Bastian Roberts.
Now to Wales.
1881 Census, 69 Upper Pentre, Eysttl St, St John near Swansea, Glamorgan. Photocopy of microfische.
Penrose:
John, Head, Married, M, 50, b Cornwall
Philippa, Wife, Married, F, 35, b Cornwall
Charles E, Son, M, 4, b Swansea, Glamorgan Charles Edwin)
Frederick G, Son, M, 1, b Swansea, Glamorgan (Frederick George, my grandfather)
(1881 Census, 24 Low Fell Croft, Dalton in Furness, Lancashire - Joseph Roberts 54, Iron Ore Mine, Elizabeth Roberts 55, Joseph 22 Iron Ore Mine, Francis P 20 dressmaker, Edith 16 dressmaker assist)
1891 Census, 28 Park Road, Tredeager, West Monmouthshire - printout of scan of original.
Penrose:
John, Head, Married, 64, Confectioner, b Cornwall
Phillippa, Wife, Married, 45,b Cornwall
Charles, Son, 14, Baker, b Swansea
Fred, Son, 11, Scholar, b Pontypridd (should be Swansea)
Joseph, Son, 9, Scholar, b Swansea (should be Pontypridd)
Richard, Son, 6, Scholar, b Cardiff
1901 Census, 24 Moira St, St Mary, All Saints, Cardiff, Glamorganshire I have printout from www.census.pro.gov.uk, Ancestry.co.uk, and of scan of original
Penrose:
John, Head, Married, 78, M, Confectioner, b Truro
Phillippa, Wife, Married, 56, F, b St German
Fredk, Son, Single, 21, M, Baker, b Swansea
Richard, Son, Single, 16, M, Messenger Boy, b Cardiff
1901 Census, Gable Cottages, Manorbier St James, Pembrokeshire www.census.pro.gov.uk & Ancestry.com.uk
Charles E Penrose, Head, Married, 23, M, Baptist Minister, b Swansea
Emma (Anna?) Penrose, Wife, Married, 27, F, b Plympton Devon
(census.pro says Emma, Ancestry.com says Anna)
John Penrose was born somewhere in Truro, Cornwall. He died and was buried Jan-Mar 1902 in Cardiff, aged 77.
Philippa Polglase was born 21 Jul 1840 in Boscreage, Germoe, Cornwall. (Cousin has birth certificate.) Christened 21 Aug 1843 at Breage. (printout of scan of original.) Philippa Penrose died 20 Feb 1924 in Cardiff - birthday book owned by Charles' wife. Yet supposedly she was buried 13 Feb 1924 in Whitchurch, Cardiff. ???
Children:
Charles Edwin, Apr-Jun 1877, Swansea
Frederick George, 17 Jan 1880, Swansea
Joseph Henry, Jan-March 1882, Pontypridd
Richard Thomas, 6 Feb 1855, Cardiff
John & Philippa's ages are inconsistent in censuses. And often vague about their place of birth. Not helpful. :-[
Need to find John before 1881.
I had become very fond of my 'other' John and his family. :'( I'm beginning to 'grieve' for their loss already as I had begun to feel I 'knew' them.
Have you noticed HOW MANY John Penroses there are in Cornwall? ::)
You are all wonderful people. :D I am truly grateful for your willingness to help me, and amazed at your generosity. :)
Thank you.
Brissygal 8)
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Hi everyone
Just had to get my rootschat " fix " before packing and heading out this afternoon ;D
Hiya Kris.... Yesterday was father's day .... had to keep away from computer and do the father's day 'thing' LOL
I have also had another look around for John the confectioner in 1871 and 1861...to no avail.
I have reread the post several times and just saw something that we should possibly check. Brissygal says that family stories have it that Philippa, the teacher, ran off with a travelling minstral :o ...maybe we should be looking for John Penrose under a different occupation prior to 1881.
Deb :)
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i have found two possible death for John Polglase (Phillipas father)
if he did indeed die between the 1841 & 1851 census
all Helston area which covers Germoe
Q2 1844 9 81
Q4 1848 9 69
and for Ann (Phillipas mother)
Helston again
Q4 1843 Ann Polglass 9 70
Q3 1845 Ann Polglaze 9 68
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Thanks, Toni*. :D I'll keep them in mind. Hard to tell without purchasing death certificates, and even then do they contain necessary detail? Can be very frustrating, but addictive. :P
Brissygal 8)
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yes i know what you mean but if someone has access to burial records for Cornwall they could possibly look them up to see if the age tallies. ;D
Toni
PS on a different subject i thought i had a Mary Penrose in my family and followed her line back to 1728/1732 only to find my great great grandfathers immigration / emigration records and his mother was recorded as Mary Johns! - no John Penroses though
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Hi
Was trying to find out what happened to the rest of the family by 1851...
I found these two possible deaths:
POLGLASE
Stephen Sept 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 69
William Sept 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 67
Toni has found a possible death of the mother ,Ann POLGLASS - Dec Q 1843...
Wonder if they was an epidemic going on .... :(
deb
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Hi Deb
Do death certificates always show cause of death back then?
Hey - thought you were going on Hols. LOL. Going anywhere exciting? ;D
It's 11.15pm here - gotta get some shut-eye or I'll never get to work tomorrow.
Brissygal 8)
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1871 census philippa was sister in law to the roberts
sylvia
dalton lancs district 8
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1871 census philippa was sister in law to the roberts
Thanks. ;D
Does it give Philippa's age, occupation and place of birth?
Brissygal 8)
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hi Brissygal
I think the death certs would give you a cause of death, address(possibly) also who registered it or was present at death .
If the deaths of Stephen and William are your family it may show whether either of the parents were alive at that time .
ooo another find ...you had mentioned that an earlier PHILIPPA had died in infancy ...
Death:
Philippa POLGL_SE June Q 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 78
:'( :'(
Ummmm ...looks like something was going on!! ..Stephen, William and Philippa may have all died within weeks or even days of each other and then possibly a couple of months later Ann, the mum , too :'(
deb
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HI.....
Look what I found....
1871:
St Giles, Reading, Berkshire
60 Horse street
Little Crown .................maybe a pub LOL
John Simmonds head ...lic. Victualler
plus his family
plus lots of lodgers one of them......
JOHN PENROSE Mar 24 TRAVELLING MUSICIAN b Glos.???
says he's married, ummm, also b Glos. ummmm , maybe trying to hide ?
I know, I know, age is wrong too, but Brissygal did say the family story was that Philippa ran off with a TRAVELLING MINSTREL !! ;D ;D
deb
(still trying to pack for hols :) )
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philippa age 25 BORN Germoe
NO OCCUPATION GIVEN
SYLVIA
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Hi again
well I am off, but I will see you all soon ...happy hunting ;D
BTW: I will be sneaking times on the computer if my friend will let me play ... LOL
deb :)
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Have a good hols.
Fizzy
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have you contacted a chris penrose he was searching for the same family in june 2006 on rootschat
sylvia
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Would love to hear from Chris Penrose. ;D
Do I wait to see if he reads this? Or can I contact him some other way? ???
Brissygal 8)
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Hi Brissygirl,
You can contact a RootsChat member by sending a PM (Personal Message)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,17109.0.html
For information about how to do just about anything on RootsChat see this list ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,207046.0.html
I am surprised Chris hasn't showed up by now. He hasn't been about for a bit. I hope he is OK................Kris :D
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Had to spend some time checking through some old research. Just wanted to make sure I was remembering correctly. Got some of these from LDS microfische of parish registers, and also from Truro when I visited in about 2000.
Deb:
Re: Philippa Polglase died 1843. Not the right one, I believe.
Philippa Polglase (the first one) was christened 3 Feb 1833 - from parish records St Germoe (photocopy of register). daughter of John & Ann, Boscreage (Boscreege?), John was a miner, curate was H Todd.
Philippa Polglase, of Germoe, was buried 24 Mar 1835. Curate of Helston, JW Johns. - from parish records of Breage, Cornwall. (photocopy of register)
My Philippa was born 21 July 1840 (birth certificate, family birthday book), christened 21 Aug 1843, parents John & Ann, Germoe, Miner, curate J Perry. She was still alive for the christening after the death you have recorded in June Qtr 1843. Please don't kill this Philippa off, or I will have to start both lines from scratch. :-[
Toni*:
Re: Philippa Polglase marriage in 1878 at Helston.
15 June 1878, Parish church, St Sithney, Cornwall.
James John Arthur, 24, bachelor, fisherman, Porthleven, S Sithney. Father: James John Nicholas Arthur, shoemaker.
Philippa Polglase, 25, spinster, Porthleven, S Sithney. Father: John Polglase, fisherman.
Married in parish church by Superintendent Registrar's Certificate: Henry H DuBoulay.
James signed, Philippa marked X. Witnesses: Edwin Pascoe and John Henry Jenkins.
Not my Philippa - 13 years too young, but details may be of interest to another researcher. On the same photocopy is a Richard Thomas Gilbert & Eliza Trezise. If anyone is interested in those families, contact me. :)
Sylvia:
Did you notice Philippa dropped her age by 5 years between 1861 and 1871, and kept it off. Was she trying to impress John ;) ???
I'll keep plodding on. Thanks for your input if/when you find anything. ;D
Regards,
Brissygal 8)
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kayhin/40137.html
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~juneen/sthilary/bdm.html
try this cornwall site
sylvia
Moderator Comment: Germoe Link has now been Corrected
See this thread for links to all known Free Parish Records for Cornwall ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,52054.0.html
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Thanks Sylvia. :) First site is the same as in my 1841 census post - John, Ann and children - Philippa the youngest. My browser won't open the second website. Not sure why. :( What info does it have?
Brissygal 8)
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oops ,ive done it again.
the cornwall info is on krissesjoint
sylvia
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Hi Guys ;D
I'm back .... Had a great time in South Carolina, spent an extra few days there.
Is there more going on in the search ...is everyone PMing each other? :)
I will be back hunting with you all asap.....
Deb
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Hi Deb,
Glad you had a great time, my turn to not be about much till next week. I had no joy at all with John PENROSE. Couldn't find anyone looking anything like him pre 1881 when he is found with Philippa. No marriage. Looks like there is a story waiting here somewhere. Will leave you to it Deb. Think if we solve this one it will be up there with your Cornish Mystery ;D
No help with John PENROSE but one little item of interest has turned up ....It appears young Stephen POLGLASE Drowned :'(
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wbritonad/cornwall/1843/misc/aug.html
Cheers Kris :D
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I have also tried to find John in the censuses prior to his marriage but with no luck. I wonder whether his mother remarried when he was young and he is appearing under a stepfather's name in the censuses?
Trouble is his age and date of birth are rather vague! On the other hand his occupation is quite distinctive.
Will give it some more thought.
Barbara
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assorted allsorts
marriage of phillippa polglase 1878 a m j helston
james john arthur 1878 helston
1841 census dis 3 gwennap
bottom of page 1
paul penrose 5
bottom of page 2
jno penrose 4
no adult penrose
mostly miners
==================
1851 sithney 1b
henry polglase 19
mary a polglase 53
phillipa polglase 9
1881 swansea
john penrose 50 confectioner
phillipa PENROSE' 35
FREDERICK G PENROSE 1
charles e penrose
sylvia
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Welcome back, Deb. Glad you had a good holiday. ;D
Kris - that was a very interesting link to the newspaper article - amazed that you found it. Of course I had to read it all to get to the section on SP drowning at the end, but it was intriguing all the way. :)
I think in one of the entries John Penrose lists his birthplace as Truro - which is of course a very large district. :P
Thanks again for all your hard work everyone. ;D
Brissygal 8)
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Hi everyone ;D
Okay , I have had to reread this post several times as I have forgotten everything ...that's what happens when you hit 44, ::)
Okay ... I am wondering why no one was excited about my John Penrose ...the 'travelling musician' that I found in 1871...i know the dates are off etc ...but Philippa supposedly ran off with a travelling minstrel.... it seems like they have fibbed about everything else so maybe my John, the musician , may be the right one ...LOL
deb :)
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Hi Brissygal
Back hunting !
re: Philippa Polglase
I have found this:
births:
Phillippa Polglase sept q 1840 Helston vol 9 pg 99 ( I assume this is your rellie)
Philllipa Polglase jun q 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 108
you said in a previous post that your Philippa was b 1840 and christened 1843.
I found another death of Philippa Polgl_se june q 1843 Helston (see previous post) .... do you think philippa (1840) may have died in 1843 and Philippa (b 1843) is your Philippa?
so this is what I am thinking:
philippa # 1: b 1833 d 1835
Philippa # 2: b 1840 In 1841 census she is 11months... maybe she died in 1843(june q , see above)
Then Philllipa # 3 is born same quarter as Philippa # 2 dies. Maybe it is Philippa #3 who was christened Aug 1843 .
what do you think?
I am confusing myself here LOL ;D
okay back to the search ...
deb :)
PS: I looked on IGI and I see submitted info re: Philippa Jane Polglase...it says
Christened 17 June 1833 Breage
Burial 24 March 1835 ( same as your Philippa) BUT it says parents are THOMAS and MARY ANN Polglase . Your Philippa who died same date, her parents were JOHN and ANN...... am I confusing the situation even more here?? :-\ It is a submitted record though ::)
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1891 resides tredegar
phillippa penrose birth abt 1846 cornwall
spouse john
1881
wales phillipa penrose age 35
spouse john
1851 sithney
mary a polglase age 53
henry polglase19
phillipa age 9
1841
phillipa polglase age 7 breage mother mary
1861
philipa polglase 20 redruth
philippa " 19 helston
philippa " 8 helston
philipe " 17 helston
will the real phillippa please stand up[haha]
broken rules oops
always read from start oops
keep checking oops
I will learn one day
sylvia
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Hi Brissygal
Back hunting !
re: Philippa Polglase
I have found this:
births:
Phillippa Polglase sept q 1840 Helston vol 9 pg 99 ( I assume this is your rellie)
Philllipa Polglase jun q 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 108
you said in a previous post that your Philippa was b 1840 and christened 1843.
I found another death of Philippa Polgl_se june q 1843 Helston (see previous post) .... do you think philippa (1840) may have died in 1843 and Philippa (b 1843) is your Philippa?
so this is what I am thinking:
philippa # 1: b 1833 d 1835
Philippa # 2: b 1840 In 1841 census she is 11months... maybe she died in 1843(june q , see above)
Then Philllipa # 3 is born same quarter as Philippa # 2 dies. Maybe it is Philippa #3 who was christened Aug 1843 .
what do you think?
I am confusing myself here LOL ;D
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Hi Deb
The more I look, the more confused I am also becoming. ::)
My dad's cousin gave me the information re Philippa's birthday. She is the daughter of Richard, John & Philippa's youngest son and still lives in Cardiff. Apparently there was a family birthday book which had Philippa's birthday listed as 21 July. She also has a copy of Philippa's birth certificate dated 21 July 1840 - I have a photocopy of it. So it appears to be the correct one? The real Philippa is buried in Whitchurch cemetry with no headstone - 13 Feb 1924. I will continue to dig. :P
Just going through some other old findings - Register of burials from Germoe. On page 28 there is an Ann Polglase (no residence listed) aged 1, buried Jan 24 1830, curate F Parkhurst. Could this be John & Ann's daughter, christened 22 Mar 1829? :-\
I have been re-reading some old correspondence from Cardiff cousins - there is a Methodist chapel up the road from Boscreege where Philippa was born, and there are Polglases buried in the churchyard. Not sure if any are ours. ???
I have been to Breage and Germoe - they are not very far apart. Would it have been common practice for some BMDs of the one family to be in Breage, and some in Germoe?
I'm off to do some more digging!
Brissygal 8)
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The John Penrose I have been tracing (christened 1826 St Agnes) seems now to be the wrong one ??? :'( - I just discovered he married a Jane Martin from St Agnes in 1851. They are together with family in Blowing House, Mithian, Perranzabuloe in 1861. Jane is back in Barkle Shop, Mithian in 1871 listed as widow. Did John die, OR did he desert Jane, later meeting up with Philippa Polglase and marrying her
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Hi again. Back to my original message - if anyone has access to death/burial information in Truro, there are 3 John Penrose deaths recorded in Truro district between 1861 (John & Jane in census) and 1871 (Jane listed as widow). They are:
Dec qtr 1861, Truro, 5c 100
Jun qtr 1862, Truro, 5c 122
Mar qtr 1864, Truro, 5c 143
If there are family details or ages confirming my original John Penrose was definitely the wrong one, it would remove any doubts. :( Is there any way of finding this sort of info without buying all 3 certificates?
Thanks. Brissygal 8)
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re: Philippa Polglase
I have found this:
births:
Phillippa Polglase sept q 1840 Helston vol 9 pg 99 ( I assume this is your rellie)
Philllipa Polglase jun q 1843 Helston vol 9 pg 108 I can't find this Phillipa in Germoe christenings. Only have Aug 17-21 1843 for Breage - not on that page. Don't have other Helston districts.
you said in a previous post that your Philippa was b 1840 (birth certificate) and christened 1843. Breage register 1843 page 81, entry 647, Aug 21, Philippa, John & Ann Polglase, Germo, Miner, J Perry - photocopy from Cornwall Record Office, Truro
I found another death of Philippa Polgl_se june q 1843 Helston (see previous post) .... do you think philippa (1840) may have died in 1843 and Philippa (b 1843) is your Philippa?
Philippa Polglase from Killern buried 9 May 1843, age 86. from Breage Parish Records 1836-1861.
so this is what I am thinking:
philippa # 1: b 1833 d 1835
Philippa # 2: b 1840 In 1841 census she is 11months... maybe she died in 1843(june q , see above) Wrong one - see above in blue
Then Philllipa # 3 is born same quarter as Philippa # 2 dies. Maybe it is Philippa #3 who was christened Aug 1843 .
deb :)
PS: I looked on IGI and I see submitted info re: Philippa Jane Polglase...it says
Christened 17 June 1833 Breage My 1st Phillippa was christened 3 Feb 1833, daughter of John & Ann Polglase, Boscreege, father Miner, H Todd curate. Germoe parish baptisms, 1833, page 117, Entry 932, photocopy from Cornwall Record Office, Truro.
Burial 24 March 1835 ( same as your Philippa) BUT it says parents are THOMAS and MARY ANN Polglase . Your Philippa who died same date, her parents were JOHN and ANN...... am I confusing the situation even more here?? :-\ It is a submitted record though ::) I have a photocopy of the parish records burials from Breage, page 183, 1835. Entry 1458 is Philippa Polglase, Germoe, March 24th, Age 3, J W Johns, curate of Helston. It does not list parents. I got this from the Cornwall Record Office in Truro. Where else would you find an entry that would have parents' names listed? I could try to find it.
Now I am even more confused. ??? ::) ???
Brissygal 8) :P
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Hi Brissygal
Sorry :-\ , didn't mean to confuse the issue, just wanted to be sure we have the correct Phillippa ;D ::)
Regarding the deaths you have found for John Penrose in Truro , I can't see any other way of confirming which one he is unless you buy the certs or some kind person can go to the CRO and do a lookup for you :D
I would love to be in Truro, so I could do lookups...all my old rellies come from there!
I am still on the hunt for a confectioner/musician called John Penrose LOL
deb
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Thanks. ;D
Should re-confirm that the minstrel bit was only a family rumour story - not necessarily true. :-\ Why is it that we don't get intereted in this 'stuff' until those who know the answers have passed on. My grandfather Fred lived with my parents (& me) for several years, but who thinks of these things when you're a teenager?! :(
Brissygal 8)
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Hi Brissygal
Well If what they say is true then we both have very cornish roots .... you have PENROSE and i have PENFOLD....
If by tre, tra , pol or pen , then ye be true Cornishmen...or something like that! LOL
you having POLglase and PENrose.....Blimey...True true Cornishmen.....
we have to find him ::) :-\
deb ;D
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Hi Folks,
Thought I would try this again. I see the Poslglase burials took place in Breage
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~althea/index.html
The dates will confirm the correct GRO refs. Looks like the Philippa who died in 1843 was aged 86 so not yours. ;)
BTW Deb,
I did follow up on your musician. He was born 1847 Cheltenham, 1871 married. 1881 he is back in Cheltenham with wife and family now a painter. It is a pity we don't have any Penrose researchers joining us with information on the John brissygal originally had in mind.
I am again looking for possibles and have my eye on
John Oratio PENROSE baptised 16 Jul 1830 Truro St Mary's
Siblings
Henry PENROSE 5 Dec 1823
Jane Stokes Phillips PENROSE 31 Mar 1826
Thomas Phillips PENROSE 30 May 1828
John PENROSE = Grace STOKES 1 Dec 1822 Truro St Mary
Grace is in Truro St Mary's - independent, presumably widowed, with the three boys in 1841
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi everyone
I think that Grace Penrose nee Stokes (mother) is living with her son Thomas in London in 1871...no sign of John Oratio Penrose.
Cannot seem to find any of them in 1851 or 1861 ??
Where are they??... ::)
deb
Kris...I'm happy to see you again :)
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Hi Deb,
I couldn't find any trace of John or Grace after 1841 so looks like you did better than me to find her with Thomas in 1871. Please put me out of my mystery here Deb. Don't know if my brain is not awake yet but I still don't see them ::)
Strange isn't it. If there is any truth in John being a wandering minstrel, I guess he was rather like your gypsy ancestors and avoided the census. Thing is I would expect that a confectioner was a trained person so I just don't know where he is, but I find it hard to imagine a confectioner having previously been an ag lab or miner in cornwall. It just doesn't seem to fit. I Wondered also if he had maybe travelled far across the seas and been away for years. If that was so and he had been overseas for many years and returned to UK, one would expect this would definitely be mentioned in family stories.
There is also a John who lists as a pipe maker and moves between Devon and Cornwall. (Widowed in 1871) Thought it may have been Grace's son and tracked him about yesterday, but it isn't - I eventually found him in Devon, already married in 1841. (and he was perhaps just a little old anyway) I wondered if these pipes were maybe not as in tobacco but perhaps something used in confectionery making to pipe sweets but no - not so. He does in one enumeration list as tobacco pipe maker so again I was getting nowhere.
I started out just posting that the Polglase burials were in Breage when I spotted them yesterday, while looking for something on the site, when Stephen aged 9 jumped out at me, so I looked a little closer and saw the parents etc and wondered if brissygal had found it. I ended up spending hours looking for John Penrose again but still don't seem to have helped.........Kris :D
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Hiya Kris :)
okay this is what I found in 1871;
Thomas Penrose head 43 mar bank keeper b Trwes ....sic..... Truro
Harriet wife mar 35b London
Eugenie dau 14
Thos son
GRACE MOTHER WID 71 annuitant b Trwes sic ...TRURO
living in St Mary Newington , london
RG10/615 fol 130 pg 5
I hope this is them!!! How can a whole family dissappear ..... ??? :o
deb :)
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ummmm just noticed that Grace's DOB is spot on but Thomas , the son is off by 10 years ....
oops maybe wrong family
:o ::) ??? :-\ :-X :(
deb
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Hi Deb,
Sorry I have not got back to this today. That does look good........Back to hunting I guess :-\
Cheers Kris :D
??? Thomas is spot on Deb 1828 + 43 = 1871 ;)
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;D
back to maths classes ..... 1871minus 43= 1828....
I want a gold star on my forehead ...ooopsss...maybe this is for you Kris ....
*** gold stars on YOUR forehead !!!! LOL
okay back to the search...who is Harriet?
will look...where are other sibs and where is John ORATIO/HORATIO penrose...
deb :)
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OK Thomas in 1861....Looks like POB enumerated wrong way around....Now where is Mum
RG9/128 Folio 53 Page 13
6 Claremont Row
Islington St Mary
Middlesex
PENRESE Thomas Head 32 Mar b London General Clerk
PENRESE Harriet Wife 26 Mar b Cornwall
PENRESE Harriet Dau 4 b London
Cheers Kris :D
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;D
GOOD ONE KRIS!!!!
I am still looking in 1881 and 1851...we have 1841, 1861, 1871...still no Johnny boy though!!!!
deb :)
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www.cornwall-opc.org/
parish records
bmd
sylvia
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17 feb 1843
At Falmouth, on the 8th instant, the wife of MR. H. POLGLASE, of a still-born son;
1843
births
On the 17th at Nunney Frome Somerset
Mrs Smith mistress of the National School of three daughters babies and mother are doing well
just a bit to add to the puzzle
sylvia
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~kernow/names_p.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/al/chinabella/polgpage6.html
Polglase Family in Australia
=====================
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jon_rees/cornP.htm
cornish people in cornish books
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jon_rees/corbookP.htm
1881 census polglase female
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
male http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
1881
penrose female
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
penrose male
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Thanks, everyone, for all your links and suggestions. I am still working on this :P - taking lots of time, but not having any luck yet :( Would a 1902 death certificate have a birth date (ddmmyyyy) on it ???
Cheers,
Brissygal 8)
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Hi Brissygirl,
Alas the answer is no. All you will get is an age as recorded by the person supplying the information :'(
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/research/investigatingyourfamilytree/Information_recorded_on_death_certificates.asp
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi Brissygal,
I've got hooked on this search too. :D,
I have seen three children Baptised to a John Penrose (Confectioner) and Mary Ann...St Mary's Truro
All three baptised 21/5/1868 at Kenwyn.
Frederick
Henry
Elizabeth Jane.......no ages given for any of them
I have seen a marriage for a Mary Ann Evans to John Penrose b1825 and a census for 1861/1871 he is a Carpenter and Beer ???? so not yours but they also had a child called Charles E so maybe some connection somewhere ;)
Census 1861 RG9 Piece 1558 Folio40 Page 6.
Ambers
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1891 census bedwelty
??????????
john penrose 64 born cornwell
phillippa " 45 cornwall
charles " 14 BORN SWEDEN 1877
fred ' 11 born pontypridd
josheph " 9 swansea
richard " 6 born cardiff
sylvia
a lot of different children
penhale village
robert martin 45
isabella martin 40
nicholas pascoe 20
william pascoe 3
robert pascoe 2
elizabeth trethewey 10
richard trethewey 7
mary snell 10
mary skidmore 8
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Hi All
Been a while since I visited here. Death in family, etc. :'(
Thanks for your posts.
Sylvia - 1891 census has birth places a bit askew. Charles was born in Swansea (could misread as Sweden?). Fred was also born in Swansea, and Joseph & Richard in Cardiff. Don't know if Pontypridd is near Cardiff? Anyway, have birth certificates and family info that these birth places are correct.
Still no further advanced. :(
Brissygal 8)
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Hi
My wife is Christine Penrose and Phillipa Polglase was her great grandmother. Her father was Horace he was the son of Charles Penrose who was the son of John Penrose and Phillipa. We were at her cousins Dorothy Chamberlain nee Penrose, on Sunday, who has been doing major research into the family history. She is probably worth contacting so will pass your details on via this site. Hopefully, between you you will be able to crack this one. :)
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Thank you so much for getting in touch - be nice to keep in touch. :) I am Fred's granddaughter in Australia. I visited Roy and Dorothy and stayed with then in 2000 - beautiful couple. So sorry Roy has gone now. (Also keep in touch with David & Helen.) My aim is to try to track down John & Phillipa's marriage. No luck so far.
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Hi again,
It is a very small world. Christine was brought up by Dorothy's Mum and saw Dorothy, John, David and Alan as sister and brothers, even thought Ida was actually her great aunt. Christine has her own brother and sisters, these being Edwin, Pam, Pat and another Christine who is Pat's twin who we found when she was 30+ years old. Christine and I have two boys Mark and Luke. Mark has three children Jacob, Olivia and Eve. Luke is still single and has a business in Spain. Pam has two boys, Richard and Marcus the latter had a baby boy last week, yet to be named, but Harley is probable. Pat has no children and lives with her long term partner Ray. Edwin and his wife Lea are separated and have two children Ben and Rebecca and finally Christine has tow children Christopher and Carla. Christopher announced his engagement to Tina last evening. We are going to say with Dorothy on Sunday as my mum is very ill. That's enough to be going on with but next time I'll get Chris to have a chat.
By the way, when I figure out how to attach a picture I will post a few.
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Hi yet again. I am so excited you have contacted me. 8) I am a bit wary of posting private email addresses on forum sites (to avoid spam emails) - are you on facebook? You can send private messages that way, also upload photos. I tend to keep my potos limited to family on there. It would be good to be able to correspond away from this site long-term. Do you have any other suggestions? By the way, Dorothy and I have exchanged family history information in the past, but we haven't so much lately. She used to write a lot to my parents but they have both gone now ... 10+ years. Life always seems to be just so busy. :( Please give our love to Dorothy when you see her on Sunday. :)
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Sorry for delay in getting back to you. Been in Cardiff over the weekend as sadly my Mum died on Sunday. Yes I have a facebook account.
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Hi again. It's been a long time and no progress on this search.
Brissygal