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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: northern_rose on Wednesday 18 July 07 17:23 BST (UK)
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I have just noticed a rootschat member referring to an ancestors photo as "the black sheep" and it got me thinking..............what makes a black sheep?
When would you classify a member of your tree as a black sheep? ???
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Hi northern_rose
found this bit of info
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/66250.html
ricky
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Someone who is different from all the rest could be called a blacksheep. not necessarily a bad person but just someone different.
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I regard my fraudsters (2) and bigamists (2) as black sheep. Not that I find them worthless at all - if anything I enjoy researching the naughtier ancestors more than those who led blameless lives. I even wrote a mini-biography about one of them ;) (Not that I in any way condone fraud or wife-abandonment...)
Anna
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Sometimes it's just someone who fails to live up to the family's expectations. I was jokingly referred to as the "black sheep of the family" once by a cousin because all the others were in the "caring" professions, i.e. teaching, medicine etc, and I worked in law. Although in my case it was just a joke, it could be quite serious if, say, someone was born into a very talented musical family who all played instruments or sang, and that one person just wanted to live a nice, quiet, dull life, getting married and having children. Could be big disapproval from The Family!
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In the great days of land grabbing gentry, sheep chewed their way though most of the country. Their wool made a fortune for the owner while the displaced peasants sailed for pastures new.
The lambs that had the black wool were rejected by the wool merchants and didnt add any funds to the coffers of the landowners so the last 15 rooms could not be added to the mansion that year!
Baa baa blacksheet have you any wool? No mention of "one for the wool dealer" there.
Blacksheep of the family = a worthless waster.
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Good question!
I think for me, a black sheep would be one whose actions are injurious to others in a major way. I have two convicts who I don't at all regard as black sheep. They committed very minor thefts, probably driven to them by economic necessity, and "made good" here in Australia.
On the other hand, an ancestor ran a fusee watch chain factory where women and children practically lost their eyesight toiling over those tiny little chain links. I realise it was a different age, but I do think of him as a black sheep!
The jury is out on a ggggrandfather. He was overly fond of the drink and gambling, but I haven't enough evidence to know if he really gave his wife and family a hard time! ::)
MarieC
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Thanks for all your replies.
I don't think I phrased my question very well - I am aware of the meaning of the term black sheep (but had never really thought it trough to think about the lack of value of the black fleece :o)
What I should have asked was - "what has the black sheep in your tree done to deserve the name?"
In my tree it's my great great grandfather in prison in 1901 - no idea how he ended up there though!! >:(
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:D :D :D Oh, we don't have any in our tree :o :D :D :D
However, there are a couple of individuals who might qualify as Black Sheep. They appear in the annals of the Old Bailey, the names right but I haven't proved relationship yet.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/
One was Transported in 1831, 7 years.
Now, he would qualify 'cause he got caught. ;D
jc
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My Aunty ran away at 18 in 1900's with a married man. Then denied her humble upbringing-saying her Dad was a Vicar no less. she never returned, we only found out by accident
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Meldrew,
see, that's what I mean. She let the side down by denying her family. >:( That is Black Sheep.
jc
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My brother has a hobby of writing to the local paper's letters page. One day the editor rang and asked him to help a lady seeking her relatives in Hanley Castle. It turned out she was the daughter of missing Aunt Annie!!! The relatives were of course my maternal Grandad.
How about that for a coincidence?
Mike
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I have just noticed a rootschat member referring to an ancestors photo as "the black sheep" and it got me thinking..............what makes a black sheep?
When would you classify a member of your tree as a black sheep? ???
That could be me.
Say hello to Aunt Florence everyone
<----------------------------------------------
;D
Florence was someone whose existence my grandparents acknowledged, but if asked would just clam up and say "oh, we don't talk about her. She went to London." They were like a broken record on the subject! But they obviously didn't feel sufficiently disgraced that they threw the photo away.
They did at some stage - and quite bizarrely - scratch out the name of the photographer. I suspect that might actually have nothing to do with Florence, but because the photographer was Henry van der Weyde (Regent St, London), which they might have presumed was German, and they didn't want German names in their family album.
When I joined rootschat, I thought it was an ideal picture to put up, in the very faint hope that it might ring a bell for someone. I've always thought that it's too glamorous for an ordinary photo of an ordinary person and I recently sent the photograph to the experts at the former Theatre Museum (now the V&A). While they couldn't find a likely Florence in their indexed archives, they confirmed that it looked like an actress', rather than a regular portrait. Unfortunately there's not that many of van der Weyde's portraits on the web, to see if it's a style he used for stage performers or whatever.
The only Florence I've so far found in my tree (and she's the right relation too) was born c. 1878 in Bridgenorth in Shropshire (according to the 1901 census) and married into my family by marrying a John Smith (oh joy! He could have been called Theophilus Zachariah Smith, to make things easier :o ;D) probably in Blackpool, Lancs. They had three children between 1900 and 1908. But the photo is dated to between Sep 1877 and 1902 by the address of van der Weyde's Studio in Regent Street, so I'm not convinced this is the right person. (Edit: I was right - it isn't the right person.)
Edit: After lots of blind alleys, I finally found Florence. She's Florence Hampson, born c. 1868 according to her marriage certificate. She married John Noble Stevenson (born 22 Feb 1862, Hulme, Manchester) at the Register Office in Chorlton, Manchester. The marriage certificate gives her father as William Henry Hampson, a town traveller. I've got three possible birth certificates of Florence Hampsons with father William, but there's no way of telling which is the right one, as I cannot for the life of me find Florence on any census to confirm her place of birth. (Her hubby's not easy to find either - I've got him on the 1871 and 1901 censuses only.) My guess is that her marriage to John broke down and they went their separate ways, she to London. Either of leaving her husband or working on the stage (if she did) would have been enough to generate severe disapproval from my grandma. I fear this is one of those things where the only solution will be a time machine.
But in terms of black sheep uncovered so far there are lots of others: I've one chap, Charles GUEST, who was evidently a bit of a chancer: there are at least two illegitimate children identified so far, a fabulous and really quite funny correspondence with the parish clerks of Fornham St Martin in Suffolk about his debts to the parish including one letter written by him while incarcerated in the Fleet Prison, bankruptcy petitions in the London Gazette and so on. Though things turned out well in the end as in his will he leaves what then was a humungous amount of money.
On the WILD side of the family, there was always family legend of a highwayman, but until I find any evidence, I treat that with some doubt.
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I have just noticed a rootschat member referring to an ancestors photo as "the black sheep" and it got me thinking..............what makes a black sheep?
When would you classify a member of your tree as a black sheep? ???
That could be me.
Say hello to Aunt Florence everyone
<----------------------------------------------
;D
It was indeed ;) Hope you don't mind?
I was rather struck by the photo of Florence - she does look rather glamorous. My own picture is my father's cousin who was in the entertainment business - she travelled the world in WWII entertaining the troups. She wasn't a black sheep though!
Florence sounds very interesting or should that be fascinating!! If she is the ancestor you mention from Blackpool she went a long way to have her photo taken unless she travelled in the entertainment business perhaps. Good luck hunting her down!
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Black sheep in the family certainly depends on who's answering the question. My great-aunt would calmly discuss various ancestors- first prostitute in New Amsterdam & her husband the most hated man on Long Island, cousin who committed suicide (although naturally this was a sad subject), etc.- but to her the black sheep was the ancestors' brother who had become Govenor of New Jersey because he got the appointment by being a friend of George Washington while the rest of the family were loyal to the King.
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I can't think of any, but perhaps they all were because they covered it up so well ;)
Dave
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Well what does make a black sheep? I remember a great great uncle being talked about in derogatory terms because his wife gave birth to several sons who all survived and two daughters who died. Word was ' He couldn't produce a decent healthy female.'
Then there was the side of the family where several of the children suffered from Epilepsy, two died from Epileptic fits. Word was 'Fits run in the family, its from his side not ours. Shouldn't have had children, that weren't normal.'
Then there was the affluent family where the younger daughter decided to be a nurse, the lowest profession in those days especially when she didn't need to work. She was ostracized by her parents and virtually cut off- however when they were both old and ill she returned and nursed them both until they died. Was she still a black sheep or a reformed one, or was she just plain useful when they needed her?
Pennine
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It's all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Pennine, I certainly wouldn't class those you mentioned as black sheep!
MarieC
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It's all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Pennine, I certainly wouldn't class those you mentioned as black sheep!
MarieC
I totally agree with you but isn't it strange how so many families are prepared to miss out on what could be wonderful relationships because of petty snobbery, ignorance and misplaced pride?
Pennine
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Absolutely, pennine! They have missed such an incredible amount! I happily welcome anybody I find, no matter what they may have done. It's all part of the rich fabric of my ancestry!
MarieC
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A bit late in the day, but I've just been pointed in the direction of this topic
isn't it strange how so many families are prepared to miss out on what could be wonderful relationships because of petty snobbery, ignorance and misplaced pride?
I think that happened until the last 20 years or so, when families were happy to embrace, unmarried mothers, homosexual children etc. So much unhappiness caused in earlier years, especially with the petty snobbery that occurred.
Liz
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Our worst black sheep was in the OH's family - a crooked Solicitor who defrauded many of his clients in the 1870s, many of whom were lone women, widows and the unmarried, who lost their precious life savings to him. He died in jail, and good riddance!
I think he passed way beyond black sheep to just plain evil.
Carole
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I've only found drunks and unmarried mothers in my family so far. Not that the two are connected. ;D ;D
Liz
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Is having a "black sheep in the family" the same thing as / or similar to having a "skeleton in the cupboard"? ???
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Is having a "black sheep in the family" the same thing as / or similar to having a "skeleton in the cupboard"?
Think black sheep is a person the family knows about but is ashamed/embarassed over but skeleton in cupboard is something that's not talked about and completely covered up (or so the family likes to think).
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Think black sheep is a person the family knows about but is ashamed/embarassed over but skeleton in cupboard is something that's not talked about and completely covered up (or so the family likes to think).
Ah, I see - so it's similar . . . . but different! ;)
Sorry, will have to go as there's a skeleton a'rattling the cupboard door and wanting to be let out! ::)
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When I was trying to get my mother to concentrate and tell me all the names of the people she could remember to start the family tree it proved rather difficult as every few minutes she would say "oh you don't want him in the tree he was a bad'un" - usually because of gambling or drinking or womanizing. She appeared to have something against quite a few people and made me think our family was full of black sheep. But then she started saying "oh you don't want them in - they are only related by marriage!"
At which point I decided she hadn't really understood the concept of the family tree at all!!!
::)
Milly
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She appeared to have something against quite a few people
Milly - sounds like my mum, but your mum must be much younger - you are the age of my children - I thought that sort of prejudice had died out - perhaps it's a Northern thing. ???
Liz
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Hi Lizzie
My Mums just turned 70 - and yes she is northern. I think she got it from HER mother born 1902 the youngest of a large family of Ancoats cotton mill workers.
Fortunately she has now embraced my research and has been thrilled with all the information I have unearthed. I'm still on the lookout for our elusive black sheep - her great grandfather - who had a long list of affairs, finally did a runner with another woman and apparently died falling down some stairs in Canada.
Milly
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My mum's black sheep was her elder sister who ran away with a married man, which I didn't find out until a few years ago, but a few months before mum died, she decided out of the blue to tell me all she knew, including the man's real name.
Liz
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Shamelessly, following up my own post ...
Florence was someone whose existence my grandparents acknowledged, but if asked would just clam up and say "oh, we don't talk about her. She went to London." They were like a broken record on the subject! But they obviously didn't feel sufficiently disgraced that they threw the photo away.
They did at some stage - and quite bizarrely - scratch out the name of the photographer. I suspect that might actually have nothing to do with Florence, but because the photographer was Henry van der Weyde (Regent St, London), which they might have presumed was German, and they didn't want German names in their family album.
When I joined rootschat, I thought it was an ideal picture to put up, in the very faint hope that it might ring a bell for someone. I've always thought that it's too glamorous for an ordinary photo of an ordinary person and I recently sent the photograph to the experts at the former Theatre Museum (now the V&A). While they couldn't find a likely Florence in their indexed archives, they did suggest that it looked like an actress, rather than a regular portrait. Unfortunately there's not that many of van der Weyde's portraits on the web, to see if it's a style he used for stage performers or whatever.
I came across this is in the Guardian archives on-line - issue dated 22 Feb 1894, page 6
At Bow Street Police Court on Tuesday, George E Bishop, theatrical agent was charged with obtaining ten guineas from Florence Stevenson by false pretences. The complainant and her sister having given evidence as to their interviews with the defendant, his promises to them as to procuring engagements, and their payment of money for which they had in return no adequate consideration, the case was adjourned. The defendant said he had come to the conclusion that pantomime girls were "so unprincipled." (Laughter)
My great aunt Florence (she's actually my great great aunt, but as she's labelled in the family album as Great Aunt Florence, we just call her that!) should by her position in the album be a Stevenson, so this is intriguing. However, I can't find any census record for a Florence Stevenson in London but born Lancashire or (less likely) Yorkshire, and I still can't find a birth for her. So this report serves only to make Florence even more tantalising!
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Black sheep in my partner's family history would have to be the story one who had an incestuous family with his daughter (eeeeewwww!) - allegedly the same branch of the family that produced a two-headed baby. There are two 'idiots' in one family, and it's the right branch in question, but much to my disappointment I haven't found any concrete proof of incest or two-headedness (yet!).
In mine there's a few illegitimates. Nothing more interesting than that - yet. Must admit I would love to find out some scandal.
Cat
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I'm still on the lookout for our elusive black sheep - her great grandfather - who had a long list of affairs, finally did a runner with another woman and apparently died falling down some stairs in Canada.
Milly
Have you found him in Canada yet?
Karen
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I am glad this topic has been resurrected if only for the entertainment value. I have recently discovered through an elderly aunt that her brother who was married with a child ran away with the next door neighbour who was obviously heavily pregnant at the time. Elderly aunt said that the baby wasn't her brother's. I asked how she knew that and she said because Ma said 'He was a fool.The one and only time I saw the child who was then about a month old before cutting him off completely, couldn't be his as it didn't have his nose! ;D
Pennine
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One of my great grandmother's sisters was a bit of a black sheep. She must have caused such a scandal to her family in those days, as her father was a businessman in Ayrshire. ::) Here is her itinery:
* At the age of 16 she gave birth to her first illegitimate child. Same child died three months later of marasmus, or failure to thrive.
* Second illegitimate child born in 1896. Again died three months later, also of marasmus.
* She married in August 1896, one month after her son had died.
*Who knows what happened to her husband, except there is some evidence he took off for America, but in 1899, while married, she gave birth to a third illegitimate child. Yes, it wasn't hubby's, the birth registration says so.
* 1905 She married again, thereby committing bigamy.
* She eventually married again in 1927 but managed to outlive this husband and died in 1955.
Oh she was a bit of a girl! ;)
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My 3g grandmother was the 2nd of 13 children.
Her Mother occupied a church cottage. She finally got married after the 8th child to the Church Warden who granted her occupancy of the cottage.
All of the children carried his name even when they were not married.
Who is the black sheep - the woman for having so many illegitimate children or the Warden for getting the parish to support his mistress and children?
Rog
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My Black Sheep was Elizabeth Davis. (g-g-g-grandmother)
The whole story is on-line when you go looking for it.
I found her on the ship 'Stately' bound for New Zealand, she got herself into a whole lot of trouble and ended up in court in Auckland. Three or four times in fact.
A local newspaper article ends up alluding to her (yes her, , her's is the only name mentioned) as the sweepings of the streets of London!!! And she paid her own fare!!
Every time I think about it I want to sue the paper and the #@!!*# cowardly reporter who didn't even put his name to the article.
I have a photo of her and she looks such a sweet thing ;D She went on to raise 7 children.
So if anyone here has an ancestor who was a reporter for the Southern Cross newspaper in 1851, let them know that he was the worst black sheep of all. :o
cheers,
Leonie.
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a black sheep is sombody like my mother
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Purely for interest - I heard that the wool of the black sheep was prized years ago by the 'working class'
because it was sold cheaply and was used for knitting their black socks! So there's some hope after all.
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different
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In early 19th century the Aberystwyth and Tregaron bank issued banknotes engraved with black sheep - the number of sheep on the note equalling the value. The 10/- note had a small sheep on it. Known locally as Banc y Ddefad Ddu, the Black Sheep Bank, it must have been before the nursery rhyme.
Dave
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Does failing degree exams at Oxford (twice!), then bankruptcy count?
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The so called"black sheep" in our family was my G grandfather,Richard Dodsworth Southwell who set sail for Australia in 1910,leaving his wife,son (my grandad) and daughter behind in Yorkshire. It was always said he upped and went and was never heard of again until my Grandad was sent a bill for his burial in NSW in 1939.However looking through a box of old papers after the death of my grandparents we found a letter sent to his wife shortly after his arrival in Australia asking why she wasn't replying to his letters and if she had recieved the cheques he'd been sending. So it would seem he didn't abandon them entirely and maybe it was his wife who broke contact with him.I have found his name on a passenger list and a burial record for him in Albury NSW in 1939 but other than that have no clue what happened to him in the intervening years, I would love to know more about him.
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Helen,
Are you aware of the digitised Australian newspapers? If you Google for Trove, you will find them. You could search for your man between 1910 and 1939 - there just could be some reports about him.
MarieC
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Thank you so much for that information Marie C, will have a look and see if I can find anything
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Very late in the day, I know, but just had to add a couple of my forebears to the list of Black Sheep.
My grandparents used to mysteriously refer to a Black Sheep in the family, but would never say who. As I have gone along with my ancestor hunting I first identified my gt-grandmother, who reputedly went on a drinking spree after her husband's funeral, bringing home on the back of a horse and cart a man whom she married shortly afterwards. They parted, she inherited money from her father and moved away and her new husband married someone else bigamously. However, perhaps after all the Black Sheep was her first husband, my gt-grandfather, who left his job as village shoemaker and went to London to become a policeman. I knew that he and his family returned to the village after two years and that he took up his old job again, but it wasn't until I had sent for his police service record that I discovered the reason why - he had been dismissed the force "for stealing strawberries"!
Now, which of those was the Black Sheep, I wonder.....or perhaps it was some else whose story has yet to be discovered?
Gillg
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my partner says he is the black sheep of the family he never gets invited to anything. this is sad, really sad for him being left out we can't see a reason why (unless they don't like me but they shouldn't leave him or our children out)
my great grandfather is a black sheep as is his brother my great grandfather abandon his wife and children to run off with another woman where he had more children.
his brother after his wife died destroyed her memory and abandoning his child.
their sister was married several times but her first husband was a bigamist and i think he abandoned her and thier son.
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As well as our Black Sheep, we also have a "Merry Widow" in the family - my aunt married 3 times. Her first two husbands, each being the same age as her father (and what's the significance of that, I wonder?) died in the fulness of time. By the time she married her third she and he were in their 70s, and I have to say this was the happiest of the marriages. She never had any children. When her brother's widow re-married, however, she was very critical and most disapproving - seems it was OK for her to do it, but not anyone else.
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I've another one since I last posted about mine. Not in the direct line, but a cousin of my ggrandfather. He viciously attacked his uncle near present day Darwin, Northern Territory (Australia) over some dispute about a cow, and the uncle died from his wounds. It was real frontier territory up there then, and the miscreant was able to take off and was never caught and charged. At one stage he impersonated my ggrandfather (I found myself getting quite cross about this, until I realised I was being ridiculous!)
I've been in touch with a descendant of the murdered man. He is still extremely bitter about the man who caused his ancestor's death.
MarieC