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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: puppygirl on Sunday 22 July 07 15:10 BST (UK)
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I just wondered if anyone out there has done any research into the Lavery, Morrow and Little families, lived 1840s onwards to about mid 1860s when some moved up to Glasgow.
I'm trying to find what happened to John Lavery, born c1834 to William and Margaret nee Thompson. John married Ann Warnock, 1854, had several children then seems to disappear, leaving Ann and weans to Barnhill Poorhouse. There is a John Lavery, same age, supposedly married to Margaret Morrow (no marriage cert to be found) who crops up in Australia on the LDS records, but I'm stuck at finding a connection between the two.
The Lavery and Little family are connected through John's sister Margaret marrying Robert Little, 1867. A Margaret Morrow married William Little in 1861, and on the 1861 census, the Littles and Laveries lived next door to each other......
My imagination tells me John Lavery may have run off with Margaret Morrow, his sister's sister-in-law.....
Any help in tracing John Lavery would be most appreciated. He's on the 1841,51 and 61 censuses, then his wife Ann calls herself a widow on the 1871 Census, but John is not listed as deceased when his daughter marries in the 1880s, and I can't find a death cert for him. ::) HELP!!!
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Hi Puppygirl
Welcome to RootsChat :)
You have a good puzzle there! Just a couple of ideas that you might want to follow up on. Have you tried seeing whether poor relief records remain for Ann Warnock Lavery from her time at Barnhill Poorhouse. You might find your answers there...
Also have you tried following through the Margaret Morrow who married William Little, with family, in the censuses post 1861?
Regards.
Monica
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Firming up your theory of a runaway couple, there is no death entry showing in Scotland for a Margaret Morrow/Little...nor can I see any children showing on IGI for William Little and Margaret Morrow?
I assume that this is the submitted entry you mean on IGI (I can also see the many children that show for them in Australia):
MARGARET MORROW Birth: 1849/Death: 10 NOV 1918
Parents: JOHN MORROW MARY ANN TROTTER
Marriages: Spouse: JOHN LAVERY Marriage: About 1868 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
The parent names showing above certainly tie up with what looks like Margaret's entry in 1861 at home with family prior to her marriage later that year in Kilbarchan to William Little:
John Morrow 52
Marianne Morrow 58
Richard Morrow 16
Robert Morrow 14
Margaret Morrow 11, b. Glasgow
James Morrow 8
Address: Balmorrol Cottage, Kilbarchan
I think your hunch may be spot on! Hopefully, if you are lucky with Ann Warnock's poor relief records, at least some of it may be confirmed.
Regards.
Monica
ADDED: I'm not sure where you are located but it might be worthwhile following up on death certs in Australia for John Lavery and Margaret Morrow. Although, going the amount of submitted entries including marriages for their children in Australia and a death date for Margaret Morrow, it is looking likely that you have the right couple. It would help you to see some confirmation of John's parents' names as well.
....I've just seen, you're in Lancashire so maybe not so practical ;)
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Hi
On 31 Dec 1861 William Little marries Margaret Morrow at Kilbarchan Renfrewshire, too late for 1861 census. In the 1871 census, William Little is 35 b 1836 Ireland and Margaret is 25 so must have married after 16th birthday, if this is correct one, but there are no children. The address is 41 New Street Paisley.
I am trying to get Littles and Lavery connected. I will be back
Tom
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Many thanks to Monica and Tom. I've been fascinated by my John Lavery puzzle for ages, then today I discover the Little/Lavery connection...
I'm coming up to Glasgow next month to spend a day at the Mitchell looking at Ann Warnock Lavery's entry and death there in 1872, so that might give me some info.
I'm a bit unsure about using the LDS website, I always seem to go round in circles. Any link to relevant pages would be most appreciated.
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If Margaret Morrow Little is living with William Little in Paisley in the 1871 census, she can't be the same one who ran away with John Lavery, can she..? The plot thickens.
The Little/Lavery connection is Robert Little marrying Jane Lavery, John's younger sister, in 1861. This is how i made the connection between the 3 families
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Hi puppygirl,
Do not despair, there are few Margaret Morrows to get through to solve the puzzle.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true is a link for William Little and Margaret Morrow's marriage 31 Dec 1861.
Have you the address that Littles and Lavery's stayed next door to each other and what census date?
Tom
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Just a couple of points:
Tom, the Margaret wife living with a William Little in 1871 shows a Paisley birth place whereas in 1861 she shows as born in Kilbarchan. That together with her age being light (Margaret Morrow looks to have been born c. 1849-50) makes me wonder whether we have the right Margaret at least.
Puppygirl, did Robert marry Margaret Lavery in 1867 or Jane Lavery in 1861? You have shown two different names/years ::)
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just a wee note puppy,
the lavery family where living in linwood, even though it says kilbarchan, see that william was on the 1881 census at napier street, linwood but away by 1891, i will have a wee look for him the next time i am in abbey road, cemetery.
Joe
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:P Sunday night and I can't count or read!
This was the entry in 1861 in Kilbarchan for Margaret Morrow with parents John and Mary Ann in 1861:
Margaret Morrow 11, b. Glasgow
She can't at that age be marrying William Little a few months after the census! Therefore, the Margaret Morrow who married William Little is a different one altogether and that brings us to your potential entry in 1871 Tom.
What this also means is that potentially, John Lavery ran off (maybe ;)) with the Margaret I've shown above in 1861, with parents John and Mary Ann (supported by the IGI submitted entries in Australia) who was not the same Margaret Morrow who married William Little in 1861 :P
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Hi all,
On the 1861 census at J Lees house in Kilbarchan Renfrewshire
All shown as Lavey instead of Lavery
James Lavey 25 b 1836 Kilbarchan Lab at Ironstone pits
Jane Lavey 27 b 1834 b Ireland wife
Jane Lavey 5 b 1856 Kilbarchan Daughter
Margaret Lavey 3 b 1858 Kilbarchan Daughter
James Lavey 1 b 1860 Kilbarchan son
Also in J Lees House, Kilbarchan in 1861 census,
William Little 52 b 1809 Ireland Shoemaker
Anne Little 50 b 1811 Ireland wife
May A R Little 26 b 1835 Ireland Domestic Servant
William Little 23 b 1838 Ireland Iron Miner
Robert Little 21 b 1840 Ireland Ag Lab
Thomas Little 19 b 1842 Ireland Shoemaker
John Little 16 b 1845 Ireland Cotton Factory Worker
George Little 12 b 1849 Ireland Scholar
According to your notes, Robert Little married Margaret Lavery in 1867; don’t think it is the correct one. Margaret would only be 9 in 1867.
The above William Little married Margaret Morrow on 31 Dec 1861.
There is no John Lavery (next door)to run away with Margaret Morrow. James Lavery is only 25 he may have had a brother, John.
We need some concrete proof before we can progress unfortunately. Anything that has a certificate will be good to start with.
Tom
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Hi all,
I think I have found John Lavery brother of James who stayed next door.
On the 1851 census at North of Bridge St, Kilbarchan Land
William Lavery 42 b 1809 Ireland Spirit Dealer
Margaret Lavery 44 b 1807 Ireland Wife
John Lavery 18 b 1833 Linwood Carter
James Lavery 16 b 1835 Linwood Carter
William Lavery 10 b 1841 Linwood Scholar
Robert Lavery 9 b 1842 Linwood Scholar
Margaret Lavery 7 b 1844 Linwood Scholar
Alexander Lavery 5 b 1846 Linwood
Thomas Lavery 3 b 1848 Linwood
Agnes Tomsen 55 b 1796 Ireland Servant – Sister in Law
PS with the mis spelling should be Thompson not Tomsen, this would Margaret Thompson as advised on first thread to be John's mother.
PPS Highlighted in blue the Margaret Lavery who married Robert Little.
Tom
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Robert Little and Margaret Lavery's marriage entry:
ROBERT LITTLE Marriages:Spouse: MARGARET LAVERY
MARRIAGE: 29 JUN 1866 High Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
I can only see one child showing for them on IGI: WILLIAM LITTLE Birth: 26 MAY 1868 Kilbarchan, Renfrew, Scotland
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Hi Monica,
I think that is the correct marriage but not to the Margaret Lavery ( she would be 9) who stayed next door, it is James next door's sister, who was born in 1844, and is now the ripe old age of 22.
John Lavery and Anne Warnock had the following children,
William Lavery b 18 Dec 1855 Kilbarchan
Margaret Lavery b 18 Jan 1860 Anderston, Glasgow
John Lavery b 24 Sep 1861 Anderson Glasgow
William Lavery b 13 Aug 1863 Anderston Glasgow
Thomas Lavery b 22 Feb 1866 Clyde Glasgow
David Lavery b 22 Aug 1869 Anderston Glasgow
There is a marriage on IGI on LDS site for a Margaret Morrow to John Lavery on 1870 at Goulburn, NSW. It also states Margaret died 14 Nov 1918. this is a submitted record so could be inaccurate. This ties in nicely with John having his last child with Anne.
Tom
PS I have highlighted the correct Margaret Lavery in blue on earlier note.
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Yes it does. And it also looks like it is not the same Margaret Morrow who married William Little in 1861 (different parents for Margaret from the 1861 MC). So Margaret Morrow, daughter of John and Mary Ann, who we have in 1861 with family is the likely Margaret with John Lavery in Australia.
The other Margaret Morrow who married William Little in 1861 shows parents John and Jane Lowe (spl?), mother shows as deceased.
This also looks like the parents of John Lavery in 1861:
William Lavery 51, carter, b. Ireland
Margart Lavery 50, b Ireland
William Lavery 20, b. Kilbarchan
Margart Lavery 16, b. Kilbarchan
Alexander Lavery 14, b. Kilbarchan
Thomas Lavery 12, b. Kilbarchan
Address: Hendersons House, Kilbarchan
Monica
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Hi Monica,
John Lavery’s younger sister, Margaret Lavery (22) married Robert Little (26).
Robert’s brother William Little (23) married Margaret Morrow.
We have proved that the correct Margaret Morrow who eloped with John Laverty was 20 born 1850.
However on ScotlandsPeople website (SP) for 6 credits you can download the marriage certificate for William Little and Margaret Morrow and that will give ages, correct parents , and help to clear up mystery, Margaret’s age and parents should help to complete the search.
I was just about to post, when you posted your last post, which agrees anyway.
Tom
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I think we're pretty much there Tom ;) It does look likely that John Lavery disappeared across the seas to Australia going by the IGI entries but not with his sister's sister in law 8)
Hopefully Puppygirl, your trip to the Mitchell Library will be fruitful in respect of Ann Warnock's poor relief records. Let us know!
Monica
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Hi Monica and Puppygirl,
Yes, I think that is it, but it was not illegal to marry your sister -in law's sister-in-law was it. I think that John would have been 37 when he married Margaret aged 20. Seemed to be OK because he had 4 of a family in Oz.
Well done
Tom
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i too have been watching patiently, as my mcgourlick married mary warnock in 1869 and stayed next door to william lavery at 28 napier street linwood.
now ann warnock was the daughter of john and mary whitelaw, with john, mary had at least 3 children, robert, john and ann.
john married mary in 1821 but he must have died as she married david nesbit in 1838, glasgow. she had at least 2 children with him. mary and jean.
1851 census..124 main street, glasgow
david...age 50...carter...west lothian
mary...age 46...mearns, ayrshire
mary...age 10
jean...age 8
robert warnock...stepson...age 22...cart servant
john warnock...stepson...age 18...cart servant
ann warnock...stepdaughter...age 16...house servant
all children born glasgow
1861 census...18 north street, glasgow
mary nisbet...age 58
mary nisbet...age 21
jean nisbet...age 18...weaver
1861 census...80 main street, anderston, glasgow
john lavery...age 27...carter...linwood
ann lavery...age 26
mary lavery...age 3
margaret...age 1
all born glasgow unless stated otherwise
1871 census...66 bishop street, anderston, glasgow
ann lavery...age 32...stick breaker
mary lavery...age 13
margaret lavery...age 11
william lavery...age 7
david lavery...age 2
mary nesbit...boarder...age 30
1881 census...30 napier street, linwood
william lavery...age 71...retired labourer...ireland
thomas lavery...age 7...linwood
hope this makes sense
Joe
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another wee bit.....
almost sure that mary lavery marries william reid.
1881 census...41 richard street, anderston glasgow
william reid...age 23...iron dresser...ireland
mary reid...age 23...linwood
hugh reid...age 2...glasgow
william reid...age 8 months...glasgow
william lavery..brother-in-law..17..road steam engine fireman
1891 census...13 union place, anderston glasgow
william...age 33...iron dresser
mary...age 33
hugh...age 12...message boy
william...age 10
david...age 5
Joe
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Wow! You've all been so busy while I've been in bed! Can't say how impressed and grateful I am for everyone's interest and help.
The Lavery/Morrow puzzle seems clear now, if I could get hold of the death certs of John Lavery and Margaret (Morrow) in Australia, I'd be home and dry.
If John married Margaret in NSW in 1870, then he was a bigamist as well as an absent dad since the first Mrs Lavery, Ann (Warnock) didn't die til 1872 in Barnhill. The saddest bit about her, apart from her occupation as a "stickbreaker", was that no-one even bothered to put a cause of death on her certificate. One of their children, David, "pauper",died aged 10 in East Park Cottages.
You are spot-on, Joekar, with the Warnock link to Mary Lavery Reid. She married my GGrandfather, William Reid, in 1887. That is my direct line - my maiden name is Reid, and that is why I'm so interested in the fate of my GGGranny Ann and my errant GGGrandfather John Lavery. The Nisbet connection threw me a bit, I wondered why they started appearing in census entries, til I found the remarriage.
I'll need all morning to digest and write out all the info which you've all provided. Bang goes the housework!
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Hi Puppygirl and Monica and Joe,
As always answers make more questions,
John Lavery and Margaret Morrow had 4 kids but 2 of them died the same day, 07 Dec 1885, I suspect in NSW in Australia. John Lavery (11) and Robert Lavery (8) entries on LDS, but does not give place of death sorry. I know they are submitted records and they maybe incorrect.
Can anybody find reason for death on same day?
Tom
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Puppygirl
Why don't you try putting a new post on the emigrants to Australia board here on RootsChat (with a link to this post so that people can see what has already been found and discussed). See www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
Hopefully people with access to Australian resources may be able to provide more info or suggest other avenues for you to persue there to follow up on John Lavery and Margaret Morrow.
Regards.
Monica
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forgot to mention, that when your mary lavery was staying in 66 bishop street, glasgow, her future husband was also in the street!!!
34c bishop street, anderston glasgow
hugh reid...age 37...labourer...ire
mary ann reid...age 36...ire
edward reid...age 19...labourer...ire
william reid...age 13...labourer...ire
hugh reid...age 9 months...glasgow
Joe
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Hi folks,
just a wee bit of information about Linwood that might help you.
Before the Parish Church in Linwood was built, Linwood was part of Kilbarchan Parish even though it is around 5 miles away from there.
Secondly, there are still Reids who live in Napier St most notably the people who own the detached house on the corner of Dunlop St. I also believe that they recently sold a house at the very bottom of Napier St (backing on to the bowling club) to the Church of Scotland to be used as a manse by the local minister
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Hi Daveyboy, thanks for that. I'm think the Reids who came from the William Reid/Mary Lavery marriage stayed around Anderston, I don't know of any who lived Kilbarchan way.
Re the original puzzle of John Lavery disappearing to Australia. I found details of his marriage to a Margaret Merrow in NSW, 1882, and the deaths of 2 of their children in 1885. I've ordered transcriptions of all the certificates to finally confirm whether this is the same John who left Ann in Glasgow around 1870. Hopefully the marriage cert should name both their sets of parents.
If it doesn't, then I'm back to the drawing board trying to find John and where and when he died.
Can't wait for my trip to the Mitchell on August 12th!!