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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: scottcharles on Tuesday 07 August 07 17:19 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I recently discovered (thanks to Rootschat and its members!) that part of my family descend from Scotland!
The furthest back relative that I can currently find who was born there is Janet Young.
I am not sure if this was her maiden name or married name as in the 1841 and 1851 census there appears to be no husband living with her.
I'm not familiar with research in Scotland, so if anybody could help me find information on her and advise me on which resources are best to use for Scotland I would be grateful. I had a search around the Scotland forums but couldn't find many links.
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I can't find any records post 1851 that seem to fit her either!
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone.
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Hi one of the best sites I have found in my research is http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ you would be able to find her death certificate on there if she died after 1855 that has details on it such as spouse {if any} parents occupation etc.
Good Luck with your search Cheers KateNZ :D
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You will also find the image of the 1851 census record on SP and this will provide a status (single, married, widowed - not sure why ancestry managed to miss this in the transcribing ??? )
Slightly confused with your 2 records - She is 8 years younger in 1851 to 1841? Could well be a transcription error - so checking the images could be a good start. If you can determine a reliable birth date, you can look for birth/marriage on the IGI and ScotlandsPeople. I find the IGI quite good for Scotland & tend to look there first as it is free :)
If she died before 1855, finding a death/burial record may be difficult as they are not on IGI or SP
Trish
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Thank you both for your help.
I was finding ancestry.co.uk difficult to work with as it won't allow you to look at Scottish census images. I will check out those websites you've provided me with and let you know how it goes.
Thanks again,
Scott
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Thank you both for your help.
I was finding ancestry.co.uk difficult to work with as it won't allow you to look at Scottish census images. I will check out those websites you've provided me with and let you know how it goes.
Thanks again,
Scott
Ancestry didn't get permission to use the Scottish images - they did their own transcriptions (not very well) - but they do help to find the correct records. I think ScotlandsPeople is the only site with the images
Trish
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I think there's a typo - the headings have been reversed in the original post i.e. the first entry is 1841 and the second is 1851.
The 1841 census record is on FreeCEN at:
http://freecen.rootsweb.com
It lists Janet's age in 1841 as 58.
In 1841 there are a Joseph WEIR 6 and a Veronica WEIR 4, both born MLN, in the household - unfortunately their births/baptisms don't seem to be in the IGI.
JAP
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Hi Scott,
I have now looked at some of your other threads and I see that, in 1851, Janet YOUNG was in the household of your WREN forebears. What was her relationship to them? Or, indeed, was she related to them?
As has been advised, you can download the census image from the (pay-per-view) ScotlandsPeople site at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Regards,
JAP
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Hi JAP & Scott,
I think the typo's are catching, Jap I think it should be Wren instead of Weir,
Joseph Wren christened 12 Oct 1834 Canongate Edinburgh,
Parents were George Wren & Helen Carmichael (extracted IGI)
Veronica Wren christened 17 Sep 1837 Canongate Edinburgh,
Parents were George Wren & Eleonara Carmichael (extracted IGI)
Tom
PS I make a few typo's also.
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Hi JAP & Scott,
George Wren & Helen Carmichael were married – 03 Nov 1830 Edinburgh Parish
Janet Georgina Wren christened 10 Jan 1832
Jessie Elizabeth Wren christened 30 Jun 1833
Joseph Wren christened 12 Oct 1834
Eleanor Wren christened 30 Jul 1836
Veronica Wren christened 17 Sep 1837
All extracted records and all christened Canongate Edinburgh.
Could be Janet was a Wren or a Carmichael, the name is mentioned.
Tom
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...
I think the typo's are catching, Jap I think it should be Wren instead of Weir,
...
Hi Tom, We all make typos but this time I'm relieved to be able to say that it's not my typo ;D WEIR is definitely how it has been transcribed on FreeCEN ;)
Hi Scott, But the question remains - what (if any) relationship is stated for Janet YOUNG in the 1851 census?
Incidentally, the household of George & Helen (as Ellen) WREN in 1841 is also on FreeCEN - George a hotel-keeper & spirit dealer and born in England! And George's mother might well be the 75yo Elizabeth WREN b England
JAP
PS: Scott, if George & Helen/Ellen survived until the time of Statutory Registration in Scotland (1855) and were still in Scotland, their death certs should give their parents' names ...
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Hi Scott and JAP,
In the 1841 census at 1 Castle Street Edinburgh in a Hotel,
George Wren 35 b 1806 England – Hotel Keeper & Spirit Dealer
Ellen Wren 25 b 1816 Midlothian – wife
Elizabeth Wren 75 b 1766 England – Mother of George possibly
Georgina Wren 9 b 1832 Edinburgh
Janet Wren 8 b 1833 Edinburgh
Joseph Wren 7 b 1834 Edinburgh
Eleanora Wren 5 b 1836 Edinburgh
In the 1851 census at 4 Milne’s Square Edinburgh
Janet Young 66 b 1785 Edinburgh - Poulterer employs 4 men
Ellen Wren 38 b 1813 Edinburgh Seamstress - daughter
Georgina Wren 9 b 1832 Edinburgh granddaughter
Janet Wren 17 b 1834 Edinburgh granddaughter
Joseph Wren 16 b 1835 Edinburgh grandson
Eleanora Wren 14 b 1837 Edinburgh granddaughter
Marion Wren 6 b 1845 Cumberland England granddaughter
Jamima Wren 4 b 1847 Cumberland England granddaughter
Plus 3 servants.
Will need Helen /Ellen Wren (nee Carmichael or Young) birth certificate to sort out if Helen was illegitimate or if Janet did marry once or twice.
Tom
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Hi Scott & JAP
In 1851 census at 43 Broughton Street Edinburgh
George Wren 49 b 1802 Cumbeswell (sic – Camberwell?) London – Cook
On IGI extracted record got Geo Wren b 17 Jul 1803 and c 05 Feb 1804 at St Giles Camberwell, London, to parents Josh Wren and Elizabeth, ties in with 75 yo staying with him in 1841. I supect that George and Ellen have seperated since last born child Jamima i n1847 in Cumberland.
Tom
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Janet Georgina Wren christened 10 Jan 1832
Jessie Elizabeth Wren christened 30 Jun 1833 My ggg grandmother
Joseph Wren christened 12 Oct 1834
Eleanor Wren christened 30 Jul 1836
Veronica Wren christened 17 Sep 1837
Another problem I'm confronted with is non-standardised spelling and people changing their names!
Helen Carmichael has been listed as, Helen, Ellen, Eleanora, Ellenora, and all kinds of other names! It's maddening!
Janet Georgina Wren has also been written down as Georgina Jeanette Wren. She an my ggg grandmother moved to South East London with their mother and another sibling, Jemima. They are listed in the 1861 England census. By this time Ellen Wren is listed as widow, as his her daughter, Jessie Stapleton.
I don't know what happened to Joseph and Veronica.
The thing that confused me was that "Helen" took the surname Carmichael when her mother had the surname Young. Either Helen was a widow that married again, or her mother could have married twice?
Anyway, for some reason, the family migrated to London. I'm suspecting the move was either triggered by George Wren's death or Janet Young's death.
Am I right for assuming Janet Young may have had a bit of money as she always seems to have servants in the house?
I would just like to find out why the family moved, and if possible, trace the family back a little further back.
I noticed two of Helen Carmichael (Ellen Wren)'s youngest children were born in Carlisle, Cumberland, England.
Now, either the family travelled from England to Scotland regularly, or the children were born whilst they were moving.
I've also noticed that some of Helen's children were left with her mother in some of the census records which seemed a bit odd to me.
Thank you everyone for your clues! The search continues!
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Hi Scott,
I do not think "Helen" was on her 2nd marriage, her eldest child was 9 on the 1841 census, and she would have been 28 , without the 1841 rounding up, so married at 19, so possible but unlikely. I think more searches on Janet Young are required, Helen's birth certificate may give a clue, it was usually father and child's name but they may help.
Tom
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Hi Scott,
I do not think "Helen" was on her 2nd marriage, her eldest child was 9 on the 1841 census, and she would have been 28 , without the 1841 rounding up, so married at 19, so possible but unlikely. I think more searches on Janet Young are required, Helen's birth certificate may give a clue, it was usually father and child's name but they may help.
Tom
Thanks for that Tom, I should have looked more closely at that actually - it's great having other rootschatters to point the obvious out when you've looked over something stupid!
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Some thoughts.
1. Re the children born in Cumberland, it might be interesting to look at their baptismal entries and/or birth certificates to see if there are any clues to the Cumberland connexion.
Children of George WREN and Eleanor baptized at Saint Cuthbert, Carlisle, Cumberland, England:
*Caroline bap 21 Aug 1843
*Marian bap 23 Jan 1845
*Jemima bap 3 Sep 1846
Certificate references:
*Caroline WREN birth Sep qtr 1843, Carlisle, Vol 25, Page 56
" death Sep qtr 1843, Carlisle, 25 32
*Marion WREN birth mar quarter 1845, Carlisle, 25 55
*Jemima WREN birth Sep qtr 1846, Carlisle, 25 50
2. I don't see anything odd about children staying (perhaps only overnight - who knows!) with their grandmother. Incidentally, did you notice that Joseph (assuming the FreeCEN record of his surname is an error) was recorded twice in 1841 - once aged 7 with Grandma, and once aged 6 with his parents.
3. It might be worth downloading the parish register entry for the 1830 marriage of George WREN & Helen CARMICHAEL from ScotlandsPeople just in case there is anything which gives a clue.
4. Unfortunately there does not seem to be in the IGI a record of the birth/baptism of a Helen (or variant) CARMICHAEL or a Helen (or variant) YOUNG, 1813 +/- 10 years, Midlothian, mother Janet/Jane/Jessie (likely variants of Janet).
5. It might be worth searching on SP for the death of Janet YOUNG - but it's a common name! Also for the death of George WREN.
Regards,
JAP
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Hi Jap,
Thanks once again for your help! Especially the baptismal entry information, and idea about obtaining the certificates for more information. I hadn't thought of that!
I did notice the double recording of Joseph, but really didn't know what to make of it. I'm still quite new to all this, so when things like that happen I don't really know what to derive from it!
I will definitely have a good browse through scotlandspeople once I've got a bit more money in.
Mentioning that Jessie is a variant of Janet really opened up an avenue for me. I didn't know that until you mentioned it, and now I know who the child Janet is in one of the records!
The death of George Wren would be interesting and I'm looking forward to finding out more information about Janet Young.
How far back is it possible to trace family in Scotland? I'm sorry that that's a pretty vague question, I was just wondering how far you have all got with your own research in Scotland :) I presume everybody likes to go as far back as they can!
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Hi Scott,
I though tyou knew about Janet/ Jessie etc, here is a good website to keep.
http://www.whatsinaname.net/
Tom
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Hi Scott (and Tom),
You mention Janet/Jessie.
It's interesting that your people named a daughter Janet Georgina and then a daughter Jessie Elizabeth - which seems to indicate that they didn't see them as interchangeable. BUT then your lot seem to have sometimes referred to Janet Georgina as Georgina, and to Jessie Elizabeth as Janet. Hmmm!!
My Gggran (born Victoria Australia of a Scottish mother) was variously recorded as Janet or Jessie.
I guess how far back depends to a large degree on where you are searching i.e. on how the far back the records for the parish extend (unless one has important forebears - if only)! I haven't gone all that far back though, on my children's paternal line there is the very rare name LOCHTIE which appears in Aberdour as far back as those records go and earlier in Dunfermline (noted as from Aberdour) in the early 1600s. I'm sure it's the same family but ...
Dunfermline records certainly go well back.
Regards,
JAP
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Hi Scott and JAP,
One of the alternative names for Elizabeth was Bessie, would that mean that Jessie was known as Jessie Bessie Wren? i can imagine her getting leg pulled at school.
Tom