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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: kerryb on Thursday 23 August 07 20:17 BST (UK)
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I have a family called Traies who lived in London in 1850s to 1890 and most of them were Tin Plate Workers and Gas Meter fitters which I understand is linked.
I have found the main website for the Worshipful Company of Tin Plate Workers and have googled but I can't find any information about the actual work they did, what sort of conditions would they have worked under etc?
Does anyone know a website or a book that would tell me more about this occupation. It's one of the few industrial occupations on my tree and I would like to know more.
Thank you
Kerry
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Hi Kerry ... I live in the Wye Valley near Monmouth, and there used to be a tin plate works in Redbrook, along the Wye. I've got lots of books about the area, so will have a browse a bit later for you ! (No idea at the moment what work was done there, but good opportunity to find out !)
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Thanks for putting this up Kerry as I also have some tin plate workers within my family tree who worked in the Bethnal Green area and I would also be interested in what there is around with regards to the type of work that they undertook.
old rowley
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Old Rowley
I wonder whether there were a lot of them in certain areas such as inner cities. Bethnal Green is not that far from where mine were in Shoreditch.
Kerry
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Lydart
From what I could see on the bits I found on google they seemed to be concentrated in Wales and the South West, presumably where the tin came from. How they ended up in London not sure? Interestingly enough my family came to London from Devon.
Looking forward to what ever you can find :)
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
I've not had a lot of luck, but tin-plate workers are shown in photos in a book called 'Monmouth and the River Wye in Old Photographs'; there's also a bit about them in another book, called 'The Water Powered Inustries of the Lower Wye Valley' by S D Coates ... I quote:
"The coating of iron plates with tin to prevent corrosion, tinplate, probably evolved in Germany in the 13th century and its use for containers gradually began to displace fragile glass and pottery and expensive pewter and brass. Andrew Yarranton is generally credited with having introduced tinplate making into this country following a visit to Saxony in 1665, and by the 1720's Pontypool [a local town in S. Wales] had become an important centre for its manufacture under John Hanbury."
If you want me to scan and send you the pictures out of the first book, send me a PM with your email, and I'll send them that way !
Not a lot of use, and I guess you may get more info on the process by Googling !
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Hi Lydart
Thanks for looking, I'm going to have to do some serious googling at the weekend. The fact that it was water powered has got me even more interested. Also the fact that in London they have a Worshipful Company.
Kerry
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Kerry,
One of my relations was at various times, a tinsmith, a tin plate worker and a dry gas meter maker! He started out in Edinburgh and moved to Finsbury in London in the late 1840s, before ending up in Buckinghamshire. My impression is that, before the days of mass production, he would originally have made [and repaired?] kettles, jugs, cooking and eating utensils, tankards and the like. When he lived in Finsbury, the neighbours included a tailor, an embroiderer, a green grocer, a clock maker, a master baker and a gold beater, so it must have been a fairly skilled occupation!
I've seen an old photograph of a tinsmith in his workshop around 1900 and it looks like a mini blacksmiths - a small fire and pieces of tin of various sizes hanging about. There was also a workbench with an assortment of hammers, pincers and other tools. It didn't look like a large scale enterprise, which perhaps explains why my relation moved South, where there were perhaps more opportunities.
Best wishes
Rockford
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Hi Rockford and welcome to Rootschat. :)
It is sounding more and more likely that there would have been lots in cities like London where lots of kettles and the such like would be required. I wonder also if that is why my James Traies left Devon for London in 1800s, more money to be had up there.
I haven't had chance to google yet but when I do if I find anything of any worth I will put the link here so that others can see too.
Kerry
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I'm now starting to get a little confused ... was a tinplate worker the same as a tinsmith ? Isn't the first to do wth plating steel with tin so it doesn't rust, whereas the second is making things out of tin ?
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Good point Lydart :)
Now I'm confused, really must make some time to do some googling.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry - I've got some tin-plate workers too. Mine were Manchester (Ardwick/Ancoats/Beswick). Have you tried google books at http://books.google.co.uk/
There are some old books on there which give some info such as these
http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=Fq4AAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA319&dq=%22tin+plate+worker%22
http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=wWgJAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA399&dq=%22tin+plate+worker%22
Milly
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Hi Kerry,
Most of the Tin-plate & Tin Workers in my tree were on the Welsh side, - in & around Swansea.
I've found a lot out about the trade from GENUKI, - also this Link details all of the different jobs in the Tin trade:
http://www.kidwellyhistory.co.uk/Industry/TinWorkers.htm
Best Wishes, Romilly.
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Thanks Milly and Romilly, I shall have a closer look at those links.
I did a google search yesterday but didn't come up with anything particularly helpful so your answers are timely. :)
Kerry
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Hi
My great grandfather was a tinsmith.
He had his own business and employed 2 or three men/boys in Liverpool.
He went on to make utensils for bakeries, and had at least 2 shops in the area.
He also had several brothers who were in the same business but they moved to the West Ham area.
This was in the 1880's.
Thanks for the info you have all given. I will research further into his occupation/business.
Regards
Olly
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When you do your research I think you have to look at tinplate mines, since this is the raw material he would have used.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Tin+Processing
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest/sites/pontarddulais/pages/history_2.shtml
http://www.cornish-mining.org.uk/story/tin.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Tinmines.htm
Mainly Welsh, but spread to the sothern counties
failsafe
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Failsafe
there are some useful and interesting links there, particularly the Cornish one. That is where the Traies family first originated from and was there they first started working with Tin.
Kerry
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Thank you Kerry
I try to please
failsafe
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:) :-*
Crikey I didn't realise how long metal has been mined in Cornwall, thousands of years. My ancestors must come from a very long line. There is, I believe a farm named after them in Northern Cornwall so who knows. Very interesting links.
Kerry
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This is where John Herbert worked in 1901 and 1911. On the 1901 the term is tinman and on the 1911 census he is called a tin cutter for fancy boxes. The photograph was taken more recently and is in Southwark.
Cheers,
Abiam
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How fantastic Abiam to know where he actually worked and have a photo of it.
I love the census description tinman, it always makes me thinks of the Wizard of Oz!
Kerry
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There were tinplate workers in Wales and Liverpool, probably London as well.
America had the biggest industry, it then caught on here
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I was checking graves in the churchyard last week ... we have one that says Mr X was a 'tinplate roller man' !!
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There were tinplate workers in Wales and Liverpool, probably London as well.
America had the biggest industry, it then caught on here
Hiya LouisaS
Thought you would like to know that the British tinplate industry can be recorded back to the 17century. [although tinplate working was an ancient skill]
In the mid 1840's Britain became the major exporter of tinplate goods, by the mid 1890's America took an isolationist stance and through a new act, which raised average duty on imports to almost 50%, an act designed to protect domestic industries from foreign competition. Equally, a large # of tinplate workers had emmigrated to the USA, which further enhanced the USA's role of tinplate manufacturing.
It was never the case of America leading the 'pack' on this industry, but rather the other way round, insofar as Britain was the dominant force in the industry and America followed the Britsh.
just wanted to clear this issue up
best wishes
failsafe
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I was checking graves in the churchyard last week ... we have one that says Mr X was a 'tinplate roller man' !!
Hiya
a 'tinplate roller man' was the person involved in rolling iron plates and coating them with tin.
Cheers
failsafe
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This site has some information, my grandfather was a tin plate worker in Birmingham and I am unable to find out anything. http://www.tinplateworkers.co.uk/history.php
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Hi all
I have just sent for a book from amazon about trades, and tin plate workers are in it, it should be here next week. My grandfather was a tin plate worker in Birmingham.
Mary
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I was checking graves in the churchyard last week ... we have one that says Mr X was a 'tinplate roller man' !!
Hiya
a 'tinplate roller man' was the person involved in rolling iron plates and coating them with tin.
Cheers
failsafe
When I served an apprenticeship we spent the first year learning about many different trades, including tin plate work. We took thin plate that was already tinned and rolled it using industrial rollers to make cylinder shapes, which we subsequently soldered and fitted a base to make beakers. We didn't tin the plate, it came already tinned.
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THE TIN-PLATE WORKER
Tin-plate, or tin, as it is usually called, is a composition of iron and block-tin, not melted together, but the iron, in bars, is cased over with tin, and then flatted or drawn out by means of mills.
In the year 1681, tin-plates were made in England by Andrew Yarranton, who was sent into Bohemia to learn the art. The manufacture did not seem to answer, and was even reckoned among the projects called bubbles in 1720: in a very few years it was again revived; and in the year 1740 it was brought to such perfection, that very small quantities have since that time been imported. Our plates are of a finer gloss, or coat, than those made beyond sea, the latter being chiefly hammered, but ours are always drawn out by the rolling-mill.
The tin-plate worker receives it in sheets, and it is his business to form them in all the various articles that are represented in the plate, such as kettles, saucepans, canisters of all sorts and sizes, milk-pails, lanthorns,
The instruments that he makes use of are, a large pair of shears to cut the tin into the proper size and shape, a polished anvil, and hammers of various kinds. The joints of his work he makes with solder, which is a composition of what is called block-tin and lead; this he causes to unite with the tin, by means of rosin.
The business of a tin-plate worker is very profitable to the master: and the journeyman, if sober and industrious, can with ease earn from thirty-five shillings to two guineas a week. The principal manufacturers in London, are Jones and Taylor's, in Tottenham-court-road, and Howards', in Old-street. These seldom employ less than one hundred, or a hundred and fifty men each. Those who manufacture tin-ware on a small scale may be found in every part of the metropolis; and one of the chief sources of profit which these smaller tradesmen enjoy, is that of lamp-lighting.
This business does not require great strength; but if a man would carry it on upon a large scale it requires a very considerable capital: journeymen's wages may amount to between two and three hundred pounds per week. In fact, the tin-plate-worker pays his men twice a week: for on the Wednesday night a bell is rung which announces to each workman, that the master or his chief clerk is ready in the counting-house, to lend money to those who cannot wait till Saturday night for their wages.
The large houses have constantly travellers in various parts of the kingdom; and, as they cannot carry the articles of their trade in saddle-bags, they have drawings of all works of taste, such as moulds for jellies, puddings, &c.
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This business does not require great strength; but if a man would carry it on upon a large scale it requires a very considerable capital: journeymen's wages may amount to between two and three hundred pounds per week. In fact, the tin-plate-worker pays his men twice a week: for on the Wednesday night a bell is rung which announces to each workman, that the master or his chief clerk is ready in the counting-house, to lend money to those who cannot wait till Saturday night for their wages.
I was obviously born at the wrong time - I was only paid £13 per week... :(
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THE TIN-PLATE WORKER
Tin-plate, or tin, as it is usually called, is a composition of iron and block-tin, not melted together, but the iron, in bars, is cased over with tin, and then flatted or drawn out by means of mills.
In the year 1681, tin-plates were made in England by Andrew Yarranton, who was sent into Bohemia to learn the art. The manufacture did not seem to answer, and was even reckoned among the projects called bubbles in 1720: in a very few years it was again revived; and in the year 1740 it was brought to such perfection, that very small quantities have since that time been imported. Our plates are of a finer gloss, or coat, than those made beyond sea, the latter being chiefly hammered, but ours are always drawn out by the rolling-mill.
The tin-plate worker receives it in sheets, and it is his business to form them in all the various articles that are represented in the plate, such as kettles, saucepans, canisters of all sorts and sizes, milk-pails, lanthorns,
The instruments that he makes use of are, a large pair of shears to cut the tin into the proper size and shape, a polished anvil, and hammers of various kinds. The joints of his work he makes with solder, which is a composition of what is called block-tin and lead; this he causes to unite with the tin, by means of rosin.
The business of a tin-plate worker is very profitable to the master: and the journeyman, if sober and industrious, can with ease earn from thirty-five shillings to two guineas a week. The principal manufacturers in London, are Jones and Taylor's, in Tottenham-court-road, and Howards', in Old-street. These seldom employ less than one hundred, or a hundred and fifty men each. Those who manufacture tin-ware on a small scale may be found in every part of the metropolis; and one of the chief sources of profit which these smaller tradesmen enjoy, is that of lamp-lighting.
This business does not require great strength; but if a man would carry it on upon a large scale it requires a very considerable capital: journeymen's wages may amount to between two and three hundred pounds per week. In fact, the tin-plate-worker pays his men twice a week: for on the Wednesday night a bell is rung which announces to each workman, that the master or his chief clerk is ready in the counting-house, to lend money to those who cannot wait till Saturday night for their wages.
The large houses have constantly travellers in various parts of the kingdom; and, as they cannot carry the articles of their trade in saddle-bags, they have drawings of all works of taste, such as moulds for jellies, puddings, &c.
Thank you Tiawooster, that is probably the most comprehensive bit of information I have received on tin plate workers and what they did and the amount of money earnt may explain how James was able to afford 5 wives. (at different times not altogether!)
Where did the information come from?
Kerry :)
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I brought a copy of The book of trades or library of useful arts 1811 vol 2, I also have vol 1 & 3 from the library if anyone needs to know about a trade I can look it up.
Mary
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Amazing information, my g grandfather Richard Thomas, made his fortune (lost now!) from iron and steel trade and owned tinplate firms including Mellengriffith, so interesting to know how and what the tin was used for.
axecalibre
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HI there I am new to this site but MY ancestors BENJAMIN LOWE b.1834 and his sons were TIN PLATE WORKERS around bilston, staffirdshire before moving to Birmingham warwickshire from around when his son was born also named BENJAMIN LOWE b.1854 who continued the profession before they moved to Australia in 1883 aboard the DUNDEE ship; that is what his profession was listed as tinsmith/tin plate worker.
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My first foray into a forum so please forgive any mistakes...I have a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate (Charles William Jones born 25th December 1864 Portway, Warminster, Wiltshire). Father's name Henry Jones, 'Tin worker and Umbrella Mender', mother Mary Jones, formerly O'Donel. I also have a copy of Charles William Jones marriage certificate April 25th 1894 on which his father is named Charles Henry Jones, Tin worker. My father told me that my great grandfather lived in a cottage at Tintern, Monmouthshire but I've found no evidence as yet regarding him or Mary - work in progress. I'm beginning to feel they may have been itinerant. (Charles William joined the police in Bournemouth and later became bodyguard/private detective to Empress Eugenie at Farnborough where my father was born). There cannot have been much of a living to be made from umbrella mending!
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Hello Miss Moss, and welcome to Rootschat.
Tintern (Welsh side of the R. Wye) is quite near (about four miles) to Redbrook, which is on the English side of the river. Redbrook used to have a massive tin plate works, so it is quite possible its the place where your ancestor used to work .... many men would easily have walked that distance to work.
However, with Jones as a surname in Wales, you will have an interesting search ahead of you !
You can try the Gwent Archives as a starter for information on the Redbrook works.
Gwent Archives
Steelworks Road
Ebbw Vale
Blaenau Gwent
NP23 6AA
enquiries@gwentarchives.gov.uk
The production of tinplate at Lower Redbrook began in 1771 and continued until 1961.
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Hi Lydart
Thank you for your reply regarding the Redbrook tin works :) , I'm following your suggestion. Meanwhile have found an article 'The Introduction of the Tin Plate Industry' reprinted from the Glos. Society for Industrial Archeology Journal for 2003 at www.gsia.org,. Also have found interesting old photos @ www.sungreen.co.uk and www.coghlan.co.uk.
Missmoss
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The quoted gsia link needs .uk added to the end
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Apologies for the error, thank you Pejic for pointing that out.
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This topic has piqued my interest having just discovered a Tin Plate worker in my tree (who was also a journeyman). However, my ancestor appears to have a serious personality crisis because he also lists himself, at various times, as a Brazier, Ironmonger, Tin Plate Worker and Tin Man. Can all these occupations be interchangeable? He clearly served as an apprentice given that he calls himself a Journeyman in the 1851 census. Oh, and he's also very obviously a rural worker as he comes and lives in Ely. Perhaps he was a 'jack of all trades' for metal work in the city?
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A brazier was a brass worker, so using sheet brass and sheet tinplate to make things would have been of a similar skill set. Obviously some characteristics of the the two materials are different and would need to be worked differently for some things but the working of the two materials is easily learnt by practitioners of either trade.
An ironmonger, maybe he set himself up just to sell things, rather than, or as well as , working at making them.
Tin plate worker and tinman is basically the same, so not such a great difference in trade descriptions has it first seems.
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I completely agree and understand all that it just exercised my mind to consider why he kept changing his occupation in the Parish records. I realise that all the jobs are synonymous with each other. Was really just speculating on the attitudes to work in the early Victorian period and the place of my ancestor in his environment.
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My great x 3 grandfather, James Day, lists himself variously as a tinplate worker and a tin man. His wife, however, describes him simply as a hawker in my great x 2 grandmother's birth certificate.
They lived in Southwark in 1851 and 61, and he says he was born in Hatfield, Herts. The plot thickens.
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But 'the plot thickening' is just what keeps us forever searching and expanding our searches !!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker
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😊
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Henry Mayhew writes about tinmen in his fascinating work: London Labour and the London Poor. It appears that some of them are indeed little more than hawkers who operated at the bottom end of a network of manufacturers and wholesalers. Maybe someone could copy some extracts here (I only have a phone).
This may explain why my gx3 grandfather calls himself a tinman, while according to his 'wife', whom he seems to have got together with at 15, and who is illiterate, he's a hawker.
I do wonder though why in one census he called himself a tin plate worker.
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The material used is tinned steel sheet. ; tinplate.
Nothing much is made from pure tin, it is too soft and malleable.
A totally useless piece of information; when you bend it, it squeals. [usefull if you want to check if it is a bar of tin or a bar of lead.]
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Thanks Young Tug, but my query centres on why his wife's calling him a hawker when he's referring to himself as a tinplate worker and a tinman.
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Thanks Young Tug, but my query centres on why his wife's calling him a hawker when he's referring to himself as a tinplate worker and a tinman.
Perhaps he 'hawked' the tin products about, and sold them door to door? (Just a thought).
Romilly.
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Henry Mayhew writes about tinmen in his fascinating work: London Labour and the London Poor. It appears that some of them are indeed little more than hawkers who operated at the bottom end of a network of manufacturers and wholesalers. Maybe someone could copy some extracts here (I only have a phone).
Thank you Cathcoo for the mention of this book, I went and had a look to see what it was and have decided it looks so interesting and relevant to my family history I'm going to download a copy so if I get chance I will add any extracts i find that are relevant here.
Kerryb
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You can read it here; https://archive.org/details/londonlabourlond01mayhrich
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Of metal workers there were Goldsmiths, Silversmiths and the word that describes people working in other less expensive metals such as brass, bronze, copper, tin, etc is "Tinsmith".
My OH has a Tinsmith in his line who owned a company that manufactured many products such as brass nameplates, miners lamps and other products such as tin tea caddies for Lipmans tea.
A hawker would need a licence and as he doesn't state "street hawker" he may have decided he could make more money selling simple tinware items, such as small tins to hold baccy, door to door, shop to shop. If he's at the very bottom of the trade he could have been fastening two pieces of whittled wood together with strips of tin to make pegs for the washing line.
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In my railway days the "Tinnies" had their own shop making lamps, cans, measures, etc', the coppersmiths were a separate outfit & thought they were a cut above the tinnies, the brass-shop ditto. Scottish tinkers were traditionally also tinsmiths, travelling from place to place fixing pots & pans & making tinware when required. I don't think licenses were in it!
Skoosh.
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History of Hawkers licences
http://www.pedlars.info/history/84-1697-act.html
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He may have been exempted from needing a licence;
Exemption for Persons selling Acts of Parliament, Prayers, Gazettes or Papers,Fish, Fruit or Victuals, Real Workers or Makers of any Goods, Tinkers, Coopers, Glaziers, Plummers, Harness menders or other Persons usually trading in mending Kettles, Tubbs, Houshold Goods or Harness whatsoever from goeing about and carrying with him or them proper Materials for mending the same.
The list of exemptions shows clearly that local food sellers, makers of any goods etc were not taxed and that the tax was payable only by those who were travelling traders. The licence fee was not imposed on the traders goods but on the means by which he traded. The means differentiated him from other traders.
[From Rena's link]
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Great stuff, Kerry b! Thanks youngtug and all. From what Mayhew writes it's most likely that a tinware hawker would have sold the stuff from a stall at one of London's large markets, of which there were a couple in Southwark at the time. I don't remember him mentioning anything about such costermongers having licences. I don't think they would have bothered with such things. They didn't even bother getting married and often got together as young as 14 or 15.
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Hi Kerry
A 3X Great Grandfather John, his wife and daughter were listed as Tin Plate workers in Surrey in the 1861 Census. John was always a tin Plate worker.
In doing some researching I found this this book in the National Library of Australia that might be of interest to you.
A history of the Tin Plate Workers alias Wire Workers Company of the City of London
Bib ID 2160048
Format BookBook
Author
Warner, Oliver, 1903-1976
Description [London] 1964
xi, 88 p. illus., col. facsim., port. 24 cm.
Notes
Bibliography: p. 83-84.
Subjects Worshipful Company of Tin Plate Workers alias Wire Workers of the City of London.
Hope this helps
ABL
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Ooh ABL
thank you that looks interesting, I shall look into that.
Kerry
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Hi all
I just registered with roots chat today and came across this thread.
It grabbed my attention because tin plate work is part of my job description, along with coppersmith and sheet metal worker. There isn't a great deal of difference between them.
That overlap has always been there as shown in the list of my ancestors with the occupations they attributed to themselves.
William Fuller 4x great grandfather - brazier, coppersmith
Edward Fuller 3x great grandfather - brazier, coppersmith, tin plate worker
John B Fuller 2nd great grandfather - tin plate worker, iron worker
John T Fuller great grandfather - tin plate worker
Arthur H Fuller grandfather - tinsmith, sheet metal worker
Arthur N Fuller - father - sheet metal worker, tinsmith
Robert Fuller (myself) - sheet metal worker, tinsmith, coppersmith
The attachment is an old advert for Edward Fuller
It's been fascinating reading the other info posted on this thread.