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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: jobucoth on Thursday 20 September 07 14:52 BST (UK)
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Could someone help trace where my 4gtgrandmother was born?
The information comes from the 1851 Census for England.
HO 107 1652 379 13
Unity Saunders b1766 North Wales, Hoten
I think Hoten has been mistranscribed but it could also have been incorrectly written down by the enumerator.
Thanks in anticipation.
Roy
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Ive looked at Genuki but cant find anything similar.I see her husband was William Saunders from 1841 do you have their marriage from the Parish Records and Unitys maiden name?This might help in locating where in North Wales she was from.Unity isnt that common a name.
Welsh Lady
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Welsh Lady
Thanks for your time, the only thing I know is that she married William before 1822 but where I don't know.
Roy
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The only thing I can suggest is to look at the rest of the page and assess the enumerators handwriting - does his H-O-T-E-N look like other letters on the page?
The only place that springs to mind that sounds similar is Hawarden - pronounced 'Harden'.
Lee
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This might help
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geogdata/ngw/places.htm
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This was an 85 year old woman - certainly without teeth or having only a few - giving a Welsh place name to an English enumerator. English people usually have no idea how to pronounce the Welsh double L and end up with as a sort of distorted H. or a G pronounced as by a Greek.
I suggest you are really looking for a place name such as Llaniestyn. 8)
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I think the last letters are ohen so it might be worth looking at places like Y Wern (not Y waun because that is Chirk!) or Towyn or Llwyn. There's als a Llywn-onn listed near Wrexham - I've not heard of it though ???
Do you have any other clues at all because there are not many bpt records available online for North Wales :(
Gadget
PS - also a Hirwaen near Denbigh
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The third letter does not look like a 't' to me. If it wasn't for the 'n' I would have said Hope which is near to Wrexham.
I have also had a look for a possible marriage on the LDS site and there is a possible to a William Saunders but nowhere near Wales. It was on 5 Feb 1793 at Martock, Somerset.
For what it is worth....
Peter
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Peter, I would have said Hope. Sometimes It's Hope owen.
Paul
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:)
Funny - you two - I also thought of Hope but could not think how it could have been written as that! Now Paul has enlightened us re Hope owen, my money is on Hope - she said Hope'n!
I'd never heard of it being that, Paul, after living so close for all those years ::) Another little bit of info to store away.
Gadget
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:)
Funny - you two - I also thought of Hope but could not think how it could have been written as that! Now Paul has enlightened us re Hope owen, my money is on Hope - she said Hope'n!
I'd never heard of it being that, Paul, after living so close for all those years ::) Another little bit of info to store away.
Gadget
You should have got out more Gadget, meold ;) :)
I have also seen Hope mountain..
Paul.
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We've all seen Hope Mountain but my view was of the Berwyns :D
I'm now just wondering if it might be worth sending you on another of your cycle rides to the RO to look for the marriage of a Unity to a William Saunders in Hope , say 1782-1790 -ish :)
Gadget
PS - I didn't come from Mold ::)
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I hope I'm not thunder stealing again, Mold :P.
I did have a look but couldn't see a marriage in Hope or Hawarden.
Where would be your next best bet and I'll have a look next week?
There can't be that many Unity's.
Paul.
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Unity shouldn't be too difficult but it might suggest the dreaded non-conformist records again. Do you have access to the Hayes Marriage Index - might be worth looking at that for a William Saunders and a Unity <something>
William has access,I think, on a Thurday and Tuesday.
Gadget
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Live in Hope and die in Caergwrle perhaps (sorry Roy - local joke)
Seriously though Paul / William perhaps Treuddyn or Leeswood or even Buckley or Mold?
Peter
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I refrained from making that joke, Peter ;D
I've just had another look at the 1841 when William was alive - Boxgrove, Sussex. HO107/1100 Folio 21 Page 16.
Interestingly, William appears to be 'born County' whereas Unity was not. William was an agricultural labourer. I'm wondering if Unity's family moved to Sussex when she was young. I can't find a marriage for them in Sussex on the IGI but, of course, they might not all be included online. KerryB (back tomorrow) has the Sussex Marriage Index :)
The only marriage that I can come up with is in 1793 - William Saunders and Unity Sims - in Martlock,Somerset. It's repeated but they're all patron submissions :(
There is a John Saunders, aged 20-24 living with them in 1841. he was also born Sussex. Maybe it would be worth checking on him :-\
Gadget
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I would like to thank you all for the many possibilities that you have supplied. Hope owen sounds quite likely.
One other fact I have found is that William and Unity had a daughter called Unity in 1806, baptism 7 Sep 1806 in Boxgrove Susssex.
It sound like a trip to Aberystwyth might be needed to look at various parish records.
Thanks from a grateful Englishman!
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The marriage in Martock is at familyhistoryonline - 5 Feb 1793
The status of William Saunders is shown as 'Soj' - which I have not come across before but take to mean 'sojourner' ie. he was not a local man.
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I wonder whether this is a bit of a wild goose chase.
The wedding that we found was in Martock , Somerset . I have found a Northway in Somerset about 30/40 miles away. I still cannot make sense of the second word. There are Sims in the area. The names are uncommon.
I know it may be a longshot but so is what we have in North Wales and I suggest a post on the Somerset board to see if local knowledge can help with the birthplace.
Peter
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Perhaps this is more of a side issue - but it seems to show that William did not live all his life in Sussex:
IGI: All extracted records of children born to William and Unity Saunders
UNITY SAUNDERS
Female Christening: 07 SEP 1806 Boxgrove, Sussex
ANN SAUNDERS
Female Christening: 09 JUN 1799 Saint Marys, Portsea, Hampshire
CHARLES SAUNDERS
Gender: Male Christening: 15 MAY 1793 Hungerford, Berkshire
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I wonder whether this is a bit of a wild goose chase.
The wedding that we found was in Martock , Somerset . I have found a Northway in Somerset about 30/40 miles away. I still cannot make sense of the second word. There are Sims in the area. The names are uncommon.
I know it may be a longshot but so is what we have in North Wales and I suggest a post on the Somerset board to see if local knowledge can help with the birthplace.
Peter
Peter
Brilliant idea. All we need is a Unity Sims from there and we'd be away.
I like it when the local side come good- it's a bit like getting a few tries :D
Gadget
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Eleven tries isn't too bad even if it was Japan.
Hope we qualify and then beat South Africa.
I won't mind (just) losing to NZ in the final.
There is an LDS showing Unity Sims born in Somerset but not confirmed.
Peter
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Just a thought. I can't remember seeing North Wales as a birthplace before
usually It's Wales and or the County.
Is Unity an American name and might her birthplace be North somewhere in the states?.
As I said Just a thought.
Paul.
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I've been pouring over maps of Somerset, following from Peter's suggestions, yesterday. Is it possible that she could have said 'Near Wells' and a <place name> rather than 'North Wales' - even if someone in the household had written it, it could have been misread at the time.
Gadget
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Thank you gadget, I would never have thought of that. You are now opening this out to more possibilities!!
Roy
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When I first saw it I thought it said "North Wales, Llopen"
Lopen is a place in Somerset isn't it?
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Hi Roy
I've search FHO (FamilyHistoryOnline) for a Unity Sims/Symes/alternatives b. 1760-1770 but can't find anything yet :-\
I still wonder about the Unity though and think it could be a sign of non-conformists and thus no baptism record. My OH has ancestors from Somerset/Wilts, etc. and the female names were of this type ::) all non-cs.
Gadget
Whereabouts is Lopen, ludovica? - Added - found it :)
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Could it be Fosse Way, Lopen in a Somerset accent? Fosse Way runs by Lopen towards Martock which is less than 5 miles away.
Peter
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Not sure about Fosse Way becoming North Wales, Peter :-\ But it could have be originally written in a bad hand and the enumerator tried his best ???
Homework for this evening - try writing Fosse Way to make it look like North Wales!
Gadget
PS - answer to your comment earlier. I was born in North Wales and always say North Wales(and proud of it!) but on censuses I say Denbighshire, Wales :D
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How can it be Hope which has four letters in it and the one on the document has six letters in it?
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I know it is annoying but place of birth is notorious
I have a family who were born in South Stoneham Hants who were staying with a brother-in-law's family and they were variously put down as born East Stonehouse, Devon and Stonehouse, Gloucs
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How can it be Hope which has four letters in it and the one on the document has six letters in it?
Well spotted. I can see not much gets past you ;)
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How can it be Hope which has four letters in it and the one on the document has six letters in it?
I think it might be worth reading Pauls's message of Friday and the subsequent discussion!
Gadget
Peter, I would have said Hope. Sometimes It's Hope owen.
Paul