RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: judi2632 on Friday 12 October 07 15:21 BST (UK)
-
Please could anyone help with information on Thomas Butler 1837
He was born in Ruddington, Nottingham.
He married a Fanny ( Frances Wagstaff in 1857)
I have him in the 61/ 71 /81/91 census with his wife & family, but nothing else
I would love to know his parents details if anyone could find a baptism for him
Many thanks Judi
-
Hi Judi,
what makes you certain he was born Ruddington? As far as I can see, the census just states Nottinghamshire. Just wondered if you have some info we don't!
Heather
-
Hi Heather
Thanks for the reply, You are right I have double checked all the census I have & all say Nottingham, I can only think that another relative may have given that information & it has not been verified.
As you can see from the census records Thomas was totally unaware of when he was born LOL
I think the safest bet is to order his marriage certificate to perhaps narrow the search,both for a birth year & his parents details
Many thanks Judi
-
I wonder if your relative is confusing him with the Thomas born 1846 Ruddington, as your Thomas' age is wildly out in 1881?
I think you're right ...the certificate will hopefully give you a father's name and occupation and some witnesses to work with. Should be able to narrow it down then.
All the best, Heather
-
I have 'Butler Family' in my research - both in Ruddington and Clifton cum Glapton - quite a few links in the area. So will check my notes and also have a look when I'm at Archive next week.
If marriage about 1857 - birth about 1837 makes sense so missed reg. possibly. I've found that not only do returns seem to show lack of knowledge of birthplace, the same applies to age for some folk ::) ::)
Knellie
-
:D Hello Judi
Thought I'd post my finds here, in case anyone can help further :)
Reference Fiche 216 - Nottingham St Mary's
Page 195 No. 390 May 31st 1857
Thomas Butler and Fanny Wagstaff (both of 'Full age') - no help there!!!
he was FWK of Gedling Street - father Thomas Butler FWK (as above!!)
she was at Red Lion Square - father Isaac Wagstaff Gardener
Thomas signed / Fanny (her mark)
witnesses: ??Oscar Grieves and Mary Ann Batter??
John Dobson (Curate)
1881 Census gave Willoughby for Fanny - could only find a George - fairly sure Isaac father :-[ didn't write it down but can check next time :-\
Didn't find Thomas in Ruddington Parish Records - may be there but non-conformist or somewhere altogether different ???
Let me know if you would like any copies sending.
Knellie
-
Knellie
Many thanks for that, at least I am one stage closer with the parents of Thomas Butler.
I now know his father was also Thomas Butler & have an address to work with.
The father of Fanny by the way was Isaac as you said.
Thank you so much for your efforts
Regards Judi
-
On the Notts IGI references for Pinxton found the following:-
Thomas & Fanny Butler are given as parents for the following:-
George William Butler
b. 17th October 1870 bapt. 23rd July 1871 Pinxton
Annie Butler
b. 26th April 1874 bapt. 9th May 1874 Pinxton
Elizabeth Butler
b. 3rd September 1877 bapt. 6 Sept 1877
Knellie
-
Hi Knellie
Oh now I am confused, I wonder if this is the same family as neither Elizabeth or Annie are on any census with my Thomas & Fanny ( They could have died young I guess).
I think George also died young as he only appeared aged 4 months in the 1871.
I will have to look at it more carefully & try to find their death records.
Thanks for all the info it,s great, & much appreciated
Kind regards Judi
-
A couple of burials at Pinxton St Helen...
12 May 1874 Annie Butler age 2 weeks
13 April 1872 George Butler 16 months
Heather
-
Hi Heather
I love Rootschat what a great site.
Thats great at least I know I,am not going mad.
Thanks so much for your time the info is great.
I will now try to to fine Thomas butlers mother with his father Thomas in the 51 & 41 many thanks.
Kind regards
Judi
-
Wonder if this could be them? what do you think?
Name of father RIGHT
Name of son & date RIGHT
Occupation of father RIGHT accotding to Thomas, wedding details of son Thomas in 1857 posted above
Thomas Butler 51.... FWK 1800
Elizabeth Butler 47 Wife 1804
Samuel Butler 27 Son 1824
Sentalow Butler 18 Son 1833
George Butler 15 Son 1836
Thomas Butler 13 Son 1838
Ellen Butler 8 Dau 1843
Mary Bedsley 49 Servant
Piece: 2123; Folio: 464; Page: 34;
NOT found on 41 yet still looking
Let me know your thoughts please
Judi
-
I agree with you about Rootschat - I've always been wary about online info. but have had great support from Rootschat folk.
Are the family still in Nottingham on the '51 Census - looks promising - any clue as to address/area?
Early post referred to Thomas born Ruddington (one of mine does but I'm still looking ) so will pass on any possible links.
Keep searching
Knellie
-
Update
The above family in the 1841 is NOT the correct family sadly.
The Thomas Butler ( Junior) born 1837 to Thomas and Elizabeth was in fact Thomas Moore Butler baptised 19 Oct 1837 and he married in 1859. So not the guy I'm after.
Back to the drawing board
Judi
-
Hello Judi :)
I didn't see any of these mentioned....you may need to look at non-conformist records for Thomas?
Baptisms = NOTTINGHAM St Barnabas R.C - parents Thomas BUTLER & Frances WAGSTAFF
HENRY - born 23rd March 1858 - baptised 9th May 1858
ELLEN - born 13th Jan 1861 - baptised 17th March 1861
CATHERINE - born 23rd Oct 1866 - baptised 30th Dec 1866
I will see what else I can find....
-
In light of the Catholic baptisms, I wonder if this could be Thomas? worth checking out.
Baptism - NOTTINGHAM St John R.C - parents Thomas BUTLER & Sarah CARR
Born 29th Aug 1833 - baptised 1st Sept 1833
-
Hi Dizzifish
Its funny that you also found that Baptism, I have also been trying to track this down too, sadly Thomas appears to be the only child to this couple, and I can't as yet find a marriage for them.
Judi
-
Hi Judi,
I couldn't find a marriage either.
Your Thomas must be somewhere on earlier census, I wonder if Thomas snr has died and Sarah remarries and young Thomas has his mothers new surname? .... just pondering the possibilities :-\
I notice the baptism was recorded twice by the Notts FHS, same details but two parish names = NOTTINGHAM St Barnabas R.C. & NOTTINGHAM St John R.C.
-
I Think St Johns is correct , St Barnabas not built until 1844
Judi
-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=716586.new#new
-
Hi Larkspur
Many thanks for linking the 2 queries. Much appreciated.
This one really has me stumped, I thought we might be on to something with the birth of Thomas Butler on 29 Aug 1833 to Thomas Butler and Sarah Carr but without the marriage and Census its hard to prove.
I wonder if perhaps there are any death records for either of the parents at St Johns Roman Catholic church which may indicate a remarriage or that Thomas Junior was in the workhouse?
I will continue the search
Judi
-
Just in case you don't have this
Baptism Widmerpool
15-7-1839 Fanny dau of Isaac and Hannah Wagstaff abode Loughborough.
1841 census
HO107/863/26/14 p22
1851 census/
HO107/2131/16 p 25
St Johns RC does not have any burial records on the Notts cd
-
Thanks Larkspur
I did have the above information regarding to Fanny Wagstaff,but thank you for posting it,However I did't know that St Johns Burial's were not covered on the Nottinghamshire cd.
I will contact the records office to try to establish if there are any records available there.your help as always very much appreciated .
Kind Regards Judi
-
Maybe the Church did not have a burial ground?? I can find very little about it online.
-
Thomas Butler and Fanny Wagstaff (both of 'Full age') - no help there!!!
he was FWK of Gedling Street - father Thomas Butler FWK (as above!!)
she was at Red Lion Square - father Isaac Wagstaff Gardener
Thomas signed / Fanny (her mark)
witnesses: ??Oscar Grieves and Mary Ann Batter??
John Dobson (Curate)
I have a feeling this may actually be an error & maybe should possibly have read Mary Ann Butler ???
Annie
ADDED (Possibly misheard at the time)
-
Hi All
I have returned to this search after many years and have just come across another record related to this Thomas Butler. ( may help someone else as well)
UK, Prison Commission Records, 1770-1951 for Thomas Butler
Thomas Butler aged 18 ( Born 1835) was convicted of "Theft from the person" in Nottingham in 1853 and sentenced to 7 years.
It also states he had 4 previous times he was convicted under "The Vagrant act".
His father was listed as also Thomas Butler "Frame work Knitter " and his address as
4 Pleasant Row, Gedling Street Nottingham.
His sentence was served at Wakefield prison and then moved to Portland Prison in 1854 .
Hi sentence completed 2nd March 1860.
Naughty boy ;D
I do also please have a request please can anyone find the address given ( 4 Pleasant Row, Gedling Street Nottingham. ) on the 1841 & 1851 census please or know which parish this was in.
I have searched and searched and really struggling to locate.
Also I assume he was up before the magistrates in Nottingham for the 4 prior offences is there any reports in the newspapers that may help further with the search ?
Thanks in advance Judi
-
In 1851 Pleasant Row is at Piece 2132; Folio 751; Page number 42, or search for John BROWN born 1817, Leicester, wife Ann. Gedling Street is a few pages before this.
Debra :D
-
Hi Debra
Thanks for that, I was hoping it may shed some further light on the Butler family, sadly they don't appear to be either on Pleasant Row or Gedling Street :( But really appreciate the link
Kind Regards Judi
-
Nott Mercury, 23 Oct 1850; A 14 year FWK called Thomas Butler was up in court for piclpocketing in the marketplace. It says he was remanded but I can't find further details.
Same, 6 Feb 1851: 15 year old Thomas Butler, a FWK of Victoria St, was remanded on suspicion of pickpocketing. Apparently his father (unnamed) found some money wrapped in a silk scarf on his bed!
21 Mar 1851: Picked up again on suspicion of pickpocketing; age given as 16, address Victoria St. He was also accused of assaulting a child. Sent to House of Correction for 2 months for hard labour. So that's where he'd have been for the 1851 census.
Feb 1852: he's back in court, now aged 18. (Obviously not all these given ages can be correct!) Stocking maker of 12 Victoria St, pickpocketing again.
June 1852: insufficient evidence to convict him of another charge of pocket-picking.
9 Sept 1852;jailed for 3 months with hard labour for (you guessed it) pickpocketing
Jan 1853; back in court for the same; address given as Platoff Court, Platoff St. This came to the assizes in March and he was transported for 7 years,but not before his mother has given him an alibi which the court obviously didn't believe.
-
1851 census; Victoria St, St Mary, Nottingham
Thomas Butler, 54, pensioner
Elizabeth Butler, 43
and their children
Mary Ann Butler, 19, lace carder (poss marriage witness?)
Sarah Butler, 17, machine worker
Ellen Butler, 15, machine worker
Catherine Butler, 5, scholar
all born in Dublin!
(And this would perhaps link to another early court appearance by a "little Irish lad" called Thomas Butler who was discharged for a first offence of stealing in Nottingham in May 1850))
-
This is the family; in 1861 Thomas and Eliza Butler and their two youngest daughters are in Plat Court, St Mary's,Nottingham.
Both parents are now listed as FWKs.
-
Death:
1861 04 30 Sarah BUTLER 20 Victoria St NOTTINGHAM St Mary
-
Thomas Butler aged 18 ( Born 1835) was convicted of "Theft from the person" in Nottingham in 1853 and sentenced to 7 years.
It also states he had 4 previous times he was convicted under "The Vagrant act".
His father was listed as also Thomas Butler "Frame work Knitter " and his address as
4 Pleasant Row, Gedling Street Nottingham.
His sentence was served at Wakefield prison and then moved to Portland Prison in 1854 .
Hi sentence completed 2nd March 1860.[/b]
But the marriage to Fanny was in 1857 -- so something's not right -----
-
Hi Annie
Thanks so so much for all the research, you are 100% right the timeline for the Thomas Butler looked great until the timeline of his prison sentence and the date of his marriage to Fanny Wagstaff. .....Thomas Butler may have been let out on licence prior to completing his sentence Annie
.Please can I ask you to look at the original copy on Ancestry and see if you agree, I'm looking at the very light writing at the start of the record under his name ( Thomas Butler) I THINK it reads
Licence Reg number 4216
Discharged 3 April 1856
Licence Number 5239
Revoked 3 May 1858
Scanning further into same record it appears he had been admitted to Portland prison on two occasions one in 28 April 1854 and then again in 24 May 1858 ( presumably when his licence was revoked)
So question ? was this Thomas Butler married to Fanny Wagstaff while out on licence from Portland ??? OR was this Thomas Butler NOT the same person at all ??? more questions than answers lol I really do appreciate all the input and expert help.
Every census indicates my Thomas Butler was Nottingham born but who knows.
I need to relook from the start on this line to see if I can unpick it. with available paperwork and facts
It starts with my great grandmother
Born 23 Oct 1866 Nottingham, Catherine Butler known as ( Kate) .FACT
Census for 1891 has the following that takes us back on the BUTLER Line.
William Screeton aged 63
Mary A Screeton aged 61
Thomas BUTLER aged 50 (born 1841) Widower Foreman Porter west midlands railway Boarder
Kate ( CATHERINE) BUTLER aged 24 Boarder
William T Screeton aged 20 Boarder ( Boarding with his Grandparents and his wife to be Catherine Butler and her father Thomas Butler a widower)
.....................................................................
William Thomas Screeton and Catherine Butler then marry
Married 5 Oct 1892 Married William Thomas Screeton Fact
....................................................................
Looking at the 1881 For Thomas Butler born 1841 according to 1991 census and daughter Catherine ( Kate ) Butler .
1881 Census
Thomas Butler aged 33 Head Railway Lab Nottingham........indicates born 1848
Frances Butler aged 34 wife Leic Willoughby
Catherine Butler aged 14 Fancy box maker Nottingham
..............................
1871
Thomas Butler aged 34 head Coalminer Nottingham ( Born 1837) according to census
Francis Butler aged 32
Catherine Butler aged 4
George M Butler aged 4/12
.....................................
Baptism for Catherine Butler
Free Reg
Catherine Butler
St Barnabas
birthdate 23 Oct 1866
Baptism date 30 Dec 1866
Father forename Thomas
Mother forename Frances
Father surname BUTLER
Mother surname WAGSTAFF
.........................................
Kind Regards Judi
-
Just a quick response over breakfast. If your Thomas was the miscreant of Victoria St, he would almost certainly have been born in ireland, given that all the other children, older and younger, were.
And since the youngest sibling was only 5 in 1851, and born in Ireland, that would put the family's arrival in England in the latter half if the 1840s. So this Thomas, born ten years earlier, would know where he was from.
I also wonder if such a locally well known miscreant whose hand was permanently rifling through someone else's pocket, would really have got a job as a railway porter after many years in jail!
Whilst I was v proud of myself for tracing this family yesterday, the cold light, and circumstantial evidence, of today is suggesting to me that it's probably NOT your Thomas after all.
Will look at other stuff on the computer (rather than the phone) later.
-
Happy to have a look at the ancestry record (if it's avail on my membership) but I can't find it! Can you point me in the right direction?
All I can see is quarterly returns from the prison hulk; Thomas's behaviour varied from "very good" to "exemplary" and there's a note, "Sentence expired 2 mch 60".
-
Hi Annie
The record Im looking at is on Ancestry and in the record file
UK, Prison Commission Records, 1770-1951 for Thomas Butler
Portland Prison
Prison Records
1874-1882
On page 37
Thanks Judi
-
Ok, found it, and I agree with your reading of it.
-
:D Hi All
Annie I have just reverted to looking at my DNA and bingo. All the research you have uncovered with the Thomas Butler DUBLIN family have lead to a DNA connection in NY USA with whom I share DNA at around the 4th/5th cousin match.
His tree leads directly to the Daughter Catherine Butler born Dublin 1846 to Thomas Butler and Elizabeth( Eliza) Carr ( Carroll) both of whom born Dublin.
looking at other DNA matches I have with this one DNA match when I look to see how many others we both share DNA with there are 9 other people we both share DNA with. ;D
The Thomas Butler born 1797 c Dublin that you found and researched yesterday emigrated after the UK 1861 census to NY USA with daughters Catherine Butler born 1846 and Mary Ann Driscoll nee Butler
I think you may have just cracked the Brickwall :-*
Now more research to follow confirm and try to link up the other DNA matches
Many many thanks
Judi
-
whooo! Merry Xmas!! ;D :D ;D
I wondered where they'd all gone after 1861 as the only burial I could see was Sarah's (previous page). I wondered if they'd gone back to Ireland - I didn't think of them going further afield (and I no longer have the most expensive ancestry sub to look at international records).
So glad that you feel we've cracked it!
-
BTW I've come across other Irish "immigrants" into the Midlands who became FWKs. I wondered why this should be so and discovered that whilst FWK was principally a trade of the Midlands (Leic, Derby and parts of Notts though of course lace making and bleaching was big in Notts as well), there was also a focus of FWK in the Dublin area :D