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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Wigtownshire => Topic started by: indigobloke on Sunday 18 November 07 12:00 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm just beginning to track my mother's family and have traced my GGgrandfather, John Gordon, to Penninghame, Wigtownshire. I have found him/his widowed mother, Margaret, in the various 1851 Census-related pages.
My question relates to the IGI entries for his birth (and his parents' marriage). There are two for each, one for Penninghame and one for Newton Stewart. I can see from the map that Newton Stewart is the larger town.
1851 Census gives place of birth as Penninghame and I presume this is the actual place of birth. Was it usual for registrations to be made at both locations?
Thanks, Peter
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Hi Peter
The Marriage/banns records are often recorded in two places - banns were read in the parishes where they each lived. I've not come across more than one baptism though.
Gadget
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Peter,
In this particular case - both in the marriage record(s) and in the birth/baptism(s) record(s) - there is one entry that has been extracted from church registers and one entry which has been submitted by a member of the LDS.
Go with the extracted records ;)
Submitted records can be very helpful but one does need to treat them with considerable caution - especially when (as in the case of the submitted birth record for John GORDON) they do not have a precise date and they have the place preceded by "Of". At their best, submitted entries can be absolutely correct - but at their worst, they can be nothing other than pure guesswork.
I note that the submitted entries include further details which might be useful pointers. They have the parents of Margaret (VERNON) GORDON as James VERNON & Margaret DICKSON, and her death year as 1873. They have John GORDON's death year as 1865.
Incidentally, I have (only twice) seen two extracted records for baptism of the same child. The only reason I could think of was that the happy parents had the child baptized soon after birth but a little while later they visited a set of grandparents who wanted to celebrate a christening - so the child was 'done' again in their local church ...
Regards,
JAP
PS: The marriage (1829) and the birth (1838) were both long before Statutory Registration commenced in Scotland (1855). So the records are not 'registrations'.
The marriage record is the entry in the church register referring to proclamation of Banns (usually, but not always, on two or three consecutive Sundays); the entry might also mention the date of the actual marriage - which, at that time, usually took place in a private home. The birth date sometimes, but not always, is recorded in the entry in the church register of the baptism of the child.
PPS: I notice that all the children of Wallace & Margaret have an extracted birth/baptism entry (all Penninghame) and a submitted birth/baptism entry (all Newton Stewart, or Of Newton Stewart) - extracted entries are Mary bap 1829, Margaret bap 1832, Jessie bap 1835, James bap 1837, John bap 1838, Isabella bap 1841, Wallace born 1843, Robert born 1845 and Samuel bap 1849.
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Hi again Peter,
I've just looked at the entry for Penninghame in Genuki at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/WIG/Penninghame/index.html
It says that the parish church for the parish of Penninghame was located in the town of Newton Stewart - so there's really no conflict between the extracted entries and the submitted entries.
In the 1841 census on FreeCEN, the family is in Newton Stewart in the Civil Parish of Penninghame (Wallace is not there):
GORDON household
Margaret 30 (remember ages of persons over 15 were rounded down to the nearest 5 in 1841)
Jessie 5
John 3
Isabella 7 months
All born in the county
JAP
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Hi yet again,
Where were Mary (1829), Margaret (1832) and James (1837) in the 1841 census?
I can't find James (perhaps he didn't survive) but here are possibilities for Mary and Margaret.
ED5/Fol 5/Page 1, Newtown, Penninghame
Mary GORDON 10
in the household of a James VERNON (perhaps her uncle or another relative?) 31 Shoemaker.
ED8/Fol 8/Page 6, Newton Stewart, Penninghame
Mary Margaret (apologies for typo) GORDON 5 (age a bit out)
in the household of a James VERNON 55, Shoemaker and Margaret VERNON 50 (perhaps her maternal grandparents?)
JAP
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And finally ...
From the Wigtownshire Free Press BDMs at:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/wfp/intro.html
GORDON, Male - B26/2/1843 - At Newton-Stewart, on the 26th ultimo, Mrs Wallace Gordon, of a son.
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Thank you JAP ... this is all very useful information. I was beginning to suspect that the "Of" was significant.
I was quite interested to see that there was a [year] date of death for John, particularly because he died (by drowning) in Sydney, Australia.
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Peter,
No doubt you have the following from the online NSW BDM records at:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
John GORDON, parents Wallace & Margaret, d 1865, Balmain NSW, #1450
Also a death record for:
Robert GORDON, parents Wallace & Margaret, d 1910, Macksville NSW, #5961
(year of death given in the submitted entry)
Also perhaps relevant the following death record?:
Isabella MILLS, parents Wallace & Margaret, d 1902, West Wallsend NSW, #16323
It seems that there is a member of the LDS who is interested in your family.
JAP
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JAP
Yes, I did see that NSW BDM record. I don't have that record but I am expecting to receive a copy of John's marriage record any day now.
I suppose that Isabella Mills could well be Isabella Gordon. I didn't see her in the 1851 census lists ... well, not at her mother's house, I didn't look further afield. These trails always lead to other trails ... Also looks as though other family members followed John to Australia.
Peter
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Well Peter,
Do let us know how you go and what you find out!
It is always interesting to learn the outcome of a query by a RootsChatter, and of one's efforts to assist ... :)
Cheers,
JAP
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I have a Helen Gordon b. abt 1833 who married Andrew Ferguson b. abt 1833. They lived in Newton-Stewart and died there in 1887 (he) and 1893 (she). Anyone know her parents?
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I have a Helen Gordon b. abt 1833 who married Andrew Ferguson b. abt 1833. They lived in Newton-Stewart and died there in 1887 (he) and 1893 (she). Anyone know her parents?
Hi
Accroding to their marriage cert - 1 Dec 1881, Kirkcowan, Wigtownshire -she 47 and he 48 - her parents were Peter Gordon (farmer) and Helen Gordon, maiden surname, Gordon (deceased).
gnu
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thanks for that quick response. Wow. cm
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I realise this is a way old thread, but I only discovered it a few days ago when doing a search for my 2Xgreat-Grandfather, Samuel Gordon, born Newton Stewart, Wigtownshire, 1849. He and his brother, Wallace Gordon, married in New South Wales, then moved to Queensland (where they died; Samuel in 1925 and Wallace in 1903). "MY" Wallace Gordon was born 1842-ish (death registration information) to Wallace and Margaret Gordon. This would make him the son mentioned here:
And finally ...
From the Wigtownshire Free Press BDMs at:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/wfp/intro.html
GORDON, Male - B26/2/1843 - At Newton-Stewart, on the 26th ultimo, Mrs Wallace Gordon, of a son.
I have found that, not only did Samuel and Wallace emigrate, the brothers and sister mentioned in this thread also emigrated and so did their MOTHER. (She died in the Concord district of NSW in 1873.)
This family was pretty much a brickwall for me until the other day, because I was working from my mother's notes which had Wallace marrying the sister of Samuel's wife. But I have cleared that up and Samuel's sister-in-law married a Peattie, not a Gordon. It was a totally different Catherine McCrea who married Wallace. (I'm fairly sure that Wallace and Catherine were childless, but I have to admit my research on that line has been sketchy as Samuel and Minnie had 10 kids and tracking them down has been my focus.)
What I am hoping for by making this humongous (first) post is (a) that user JAP is still around nd still interested in the outcome of this particular search by indigobloke and (b) that indigobloke is still around because it looks as though we are cousins.
Please let there be somebody "out there" still. :)
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I tried to send a private message because, according to https://www.rootschat.com/forum/aboutus.php, "you can contact others by private message".
However, when I attempted to do just that, I got "An Error Has Occurred!
You are not allowed to send personal messages."
I guess I'll just abandon my attempt to link up with this branch of my family.
I was hoping I had information that the OP (indigobloke) did not have, seeing he seemed to have limited information of only a couple of the brothers, but nobody seems interested at all.
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MelP - you have to have 3 posts before you can Personal Message. Post away then send your PM.
cheers
Jack Gee
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Mel - Welcome :)
I've just sent a PM to indigobloke to draw attention to your post. He was on the site recently so hope he replies :)
Gadget
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I am sure I answered this a while ago but I can't see my reply on the thread ...
Mel P, my original post is over 10 years old and I was quite the novice back then. I was wrong and, as you can see from my footer, I have since found that my Gordon roots are in Midlothian. So, I'm sorry that we will not be able to assist each other's research.
Peter (indigobloke)
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I am sure I answered this a while ago but I can't see my reply on the thread ...
Mel P, my original post is over 10 years old and I was quite the novice back then. I was wrong and, as you can see from my footer, I have since found that my Gordon roots are in Midlothian. So, I'm sorry that we will not be able to assist each other's research.
Peter (indigobloke)
Thanks for the welcome, folks. :)
@ Peter: I knew it was really old, but I hoped you'd still see it as you were showing as active when I checked your profile, unlike JAP who seems to have dropped out a few years after this thread .. although that matters less now, as I have certificates to back up my research.
So the John Gordon who died in 1865 (from a boiler explosion, not drowning) is not your however-many-greats grandfather? :( (I was quite excited at finding a new cousin.)
Oh, well, back to looking for the rest of the family.
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Mel P
"my" John Gordon died in 1863, of something liver related, at the age of 51. Good luck with your researches!
Peter
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Mel P
"my" John Gordon died in 1863, of something liver related, at the age of 51. Good luck with your researches!
Peter
Thanks for the good wishes. :)
I already have the John Gordon (from your OP) with birth, marriage, death and children. His brother, my 2Xgreat-grandfather (Samuel) identified his brother's body after the boiler explosion. He was 16 (Samuel, that is; John was aged 27 and an engineer).
I have their mother, Margaret née Vernon, baptism, marriage, death, burial; and HER parents James Vernon and Margaret Dixson/Dickson (and at least one brother, James and some of his family).
I have Robert, brother to John and Samuel, birth, marriage, death, burial.
I have the "missing" Margaret from the census JAP posted. She, too, emigrated (pretty much anyone living (that I have so far found) did). She was married and had kids. I have the death and burial information, but not marriage except last name.
Isabella, as posted as a "maybe" in this thread, WAS their sister. I have her death and burial as well. (Still looking for the marriage.)
I already had Wallace, long before I found your post, so I have his marriage and death etc, as well.
(I know you're probably not interested in this anymore, as they aren't yours, but some day, someone will come along as I did, so this information is for THAT person.)
I cannot find Mary, James, or Jessie, but haven't expended a lot of time on them yet, as I have so many in my direct line still to correctly source.
Wallace senior, the father, has to have been a pod person (my daughter's explanation for another un-findable relative who married, had kids, died, but has NO birth registration despite it, by then, being mandatory), because all I have ever found for him was his marriage. No birth or baptism (except a possible who would have been 50-ish at marriage, which would make him abt 70 by the time Samuel was conceived). No death or burial; yet he has to have died prior to the 1851 census, unless Margaret lied about being a widow. (Maybe she was a "grass widow".) He had to have still been living in 1848 to have fathered Samuel, unless that, too, was a lie. (He IS listed on the certificate as the "lawful son of Wallace and Margaret".) So, really, there is a small window, but a HUGE world (especially if Margaret lied about being a widow)!
Of course, I also have the generations down from Samuel to me.
Cheers .. and good luck with your own tree building!