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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Lizw on Saturday 24 November 07 09:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I wonder if someone could help me to find the Thomson family in Edinburgh:
William Thomson married Isabella Newlands in 1819 and they had 9 children but only 3 living to adulthood:
William b. 1835, John b. 1837 and Thomas b. 1844.
I think he was either a farmer or Tobacco trader?
I would be very grateful for any help you might be able to provide.
John went on to become a well known photographer travelling through Asia and settling in London before retiring back to Edinburgh.
I would be very grateful for any help you might be able to provide.
many thanks
Liz
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You don't say which census you are interested in. Sorry I am unable to see the image, but I think this might be your family in 1851
6 Brighton Street, Edinburgh St Cuthberts,
William Thomson Head 55 Foreman Tobacconist Edinburgh, Midlothian
Isabella Wife 49 Edinburgh, Midlothian
Jessy daughter 25 Dressmaker Edinburgh, Midlothian
William son 15 Apprentice Watch Maker Aberdeen Aberdeenshire
John son 13 Apprentice Optician Edinburgh, Midlothian
Thomas Newlands Thomson Son 6 Scholar Edinburgh, Midlothian
Roll CSSCT1851_184 ED 85 Page 4
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1841
Middle Arthur Place 3, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
William Thomson 45 Tailor Midlothian Scotland
Isabella 45 Midlothian Scotland
James 19 Piano forte M of Midlothian Scotland
William 15 Painter Ap Midlothian Scotland
Isabella 13 Midlothian Scotland
Jessie 11 Midlothian Scotland
John 9 Midlothian Scotland
Peter 5 Midlothian Scotland
Agnes 3 Midlothian Scotland
Parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts; ED: 12
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1861
1 Brighton Street, Duddingston, Portobello, Midlothian
Janet Newland Head 61 Proprietor of Houses Preston Parish, East Lothian
William Newlands Son 34 Bank Agent Suddongs, Midlothian
Isabella Thomson 57 Sister In Law House Servant Edinburgh Midlothian
Margaret S Dobbie 27 Visitor Annuitant Edinburgh Midlothian
Roll: CSSCT1861_123 ED 8 Page 1
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This is just fantastic Mary! Very interesting!!
I've been trying to find these people in the IGIs without much success except for William Snrs marriage. I'm very keen to find out about William's parents & if he had any siblings do you have any hints about where I could go to now for any information about his extended family & parents?
Anyway these census results are just fabulous and I'm very grateful.
Many, many thanks!
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I'm afraid this was my first venture into the Scottish censuses so you were a bit of a guinea pig for me, which luckily turned out well, especially with the help of the name Newlands.
I've heard some excellent comments about the Scotlandspeople site although not having any Scottish ancestors myself I haven't used it, I believe it's a pay per view but very reasonably priced and also gives a lot of information, especially on marriage certificates. Have you looked at this site?
Anyway you are certainly on the right forum and board here in Rootschat to get help in the area, there will be a lot more people with more experience of Scottish research than I have.
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Many thanks Mary,
I will head off to Scotland's people - you have been so helpful thank you very much!
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Hello again Mary,
Just looking at the 1841 census & wondering if it really is them??
The age difference between William Snr and his wife doesn't look right & the son William is 15 when he is 15 still in 1851 census?
Am I just reading this wrong do you think or were the 1841 census' unlikely to be accurate?
Hmmmm!
I'd be very grateful for a more experienced opinion.
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Just a thought about the 1841 census - the son William was born in Aberdeenshire in abt 1836 - so maybe they were there for the 1841 census??
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hi pal,
1841 census- 6 brighton street,
william...age 45...tobacconist
isabella...age 35
janet...age 15
william...age 6
john...age 4
Joe
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I hoped you knew something about the dates of death that you mentioned in your first post, you seemed to know that not all of them survived.
The 1841 census had ages all rounded down to the nearest 4 for anybody aged over 15, so this sometimes accounts for a certain amount of discrepancies, but the difficulty here with the ages is that not being able to see the original image the fault may be in either the writing or transcribing, it's not as easy as the English ones, although they aren't always easy either ;)
There's no easy answer to your question, unless anybody was able to check the original document, which I can only assume might be possible in a Record Office in Scotland as the English ones are available around the Counties.
One way is to try to find the alternate family in later years which I tried to do unsuccessfully. I must admit I jumped on Jessy/ie with the correct named parents and some siblings. I think your best bet is to find the birth for either Agnes or Peter, since they don't appear in the 1851 census and see what their mother's maiden name is, that should confirm it one way or the other I hope.
Just to hopefully give you a laugh, I checked for an Agnes Thomson in the 1851 census and found one, possibly with a father John, who was a prisoner in Aberdeen, occupation "Vagrant Selling Wack".
Nice one Joe, that seems to have solved it.
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This all sounds very sensible! Thank you both so much for your help!
I'll keep the "vagrant selling wack" in mind!! What a laugh!!
You are wonderful & I do appreciate all you have done.
Liz
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hi pal,
william & isabella married 3/9/1819
children...
janet...born 5/7/1821
marion...born 3/5/1823
isabella...born 16/2/1825
john...born 14/6/1837
huge gap betweeen isabella and john....
Joe
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hi pal,
1861 census- 6 brighton street
william...age 64...tobaconist
isabella...age 57
janet...age 35
john..age 23..optician
thomas n...age 16...apprentice civil engineer
good news they made it past 1855 as you can now get death certs and go back a further step.
Joe
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hi pal,
think i found him...the john one...
1901 census- 113 barrow road, wandsworth, london
john...age 63....artist/photographer...born edingburgh
isabella...age 62...born liverpool
william...age 31...member of stock exchange...born china
john n...age 30...picture dealer...born isle of man
isabel b...age 27...born london
marion...age 26...born london
margaret...age 24...born london
agnes thomson...visitor...age 69...born liverpool
louisa petric...sick nurse...age 30
Joe
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hi pal,
1881 census- 60 acre lane, lambeth, london
john...age 43..photographer
isabella...age 42
william...age 11
john...age 10
isabel...age 7
marion...age 6
margaret...age 4
arthur...age 2
Joe
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Fabulous!!
I'm so pleased to see Agnes Thomson (nee Petrie) with them.
My hunt is for the Thomson's specifically Agnes Petrie's husband John Thomson my gt gt grandfather. I'm trying a bit of lateral thinking to track him down.
It seemed a coincidence that the 2 Petrie sisters (Isabella & Agnes Waugh) married John Thomson's so I'm hoping that the John Thomson's will be linked somehow.
The John Thomson who married Agnes Petrie was b abt 1812 in Scotland son of another John Thomson (a farmer) from his marriage certificate - he died on 19 May 1889.
Agnes Waugh Petrie's husband John Thomson travelled overseas to the West Indies and India then eventually settled in Lancashire setting up the Sankey Sugar Refinery. Agnes was his second wife his first was Jamima Thomson from Bo'ness, West Lothian. The Petrie's also have links with Bo'ness,
I wonder if the Louisa Petric, sick nurse was actually a Petrie?? Hmmm!!
How nice to find Agnes alive in 1901 - I have a possible death for her on March Qtr 1914 Wandsworth District aged 83 so that would work nicely. She is living with her stepson Harry in 1891 and in the 1881 census with her husband and stepchildren.
This is all so helpful, thank you!!
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I wonder if the Louisa Petric, sick nurse was actually a Petrie?? Hmmm!!
The last letter of the name has certainly not been written very clearly and I would expect it will be Petrie. It might help you to know that she states that she was born in Australia. Occupation is Hospital Nurse with "sick" being an addition, so I would suspect that she was working as a nurse, rather than nursing a sick person in the household.
Agnes is stated to be widowed.
The reference for the 1901 census for your files is RG13; Piece: 479; Folio: 62; Page: 26
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I'm a little confused here by the mothers, but maybe you can make sense of it. At least you will know by the names that these are connected.
I'm going to repeat the 1881 census that Joe gave above, including birthplaces because this is what helped me find the 1871 census.
60 Acre Lane, Brixton, Lambeth, London
JOhn Thomson Head M 43 Photographer Scotland
Babel Wife M 42 Lancashire Liverpool (yes it really does say Babel!)
William P son 11 Scholar China
John R son 10 Scholar Isle of Man, Port St Mary
Isabel B daur 7 Scholar Surrey Lambeth
Marion daur 6 " " "
Margaret daur 4 " "
Arthur son 2 " "
Annie Tulliman Servant Unm 28 Servant Nurse Isle of Man, Peel
Jane Fargher Servant Unm 27 Servant Domestic " "
RG11; Piece: 613; Folio: 61; Page: 8
1871 - You'll see why I picked out the two sons,
5 Flitter Street, Port St Mary House, Rushden, Isle of Man
Elizabeth Petrie Head Wid 70 Annuitant Scotland
Isabel Thomson daur Mar 32 England
William P Grandson 1 Hong Kong
John N Grandson 4 months Isle of Man, Rushden
Annie A H Sutherland Grandniece Unm 20 England
Margaret Kegg Servant Unm 37 General Servant Isle of Man, Rushden
Catharine Karran Servant Unm 20 Nurse " "
RG10; Piece: 5778; Folio: 121; Page: 29
Of course Isabel may not be their mother ........ Do you know when John married Mabel?
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1891
St John's Road, (No. 2 W. Cliff. Man.), Eastbourne, Sussex
Sydney Boljohn? (lodging housekeeper) and his wife Ellen and family seem to be running a lodging house
John Thomson Visitor S 20 Artist Sculpt. I. of Man
RG12; Piece: 772; Folio 9; Page 11
I've just looked carefully at the 1901 census image and find that Mabel is in fact Isabel, the M has been crossed through and written above is "IS"abel. This seems to explain a lot.
Sorry lost the rest of the family in 1891. Any more luck Joe?
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Hi Mary,
There is a lot in the detail here THANK YOU!!
According to John Thomson photographers biography on the internet:
John Thomson the photographer left the UK for Asia in 1862 he returned to the UK for a short time in in 1866 & 67 he met Isabel Petrie (a devout Methodist) then. Isabella travelled out to Hong Kong & they were married there in Nov 1868.
On 23 June 1870 Isabel Thomson, pregnant with her second son, left for England, picking up Thomson's brother William from Singapore en route.
Agnes Waugh Thomson lived for a time with her stepson Harry & his wife Edith but Harry died in October 1900 & I'm not sure what happened to his wife and if he had any children. The other 2 step children; James Stephens went out to New Zealand and Nora married Arthur John Lucy in New Zealand but they then returned to the UK.
Many thanks again Mary you have been so helpful.
Liz
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hi pal,
igig's say....
john newlands thomson christened 7/12/1870, isle of man
william petrie thomson christened 9/1/1870, isle of man
Joe
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hi pal,
peter lieutenant petrie married elizabeth grindley on the 25/1/1819 in boness, it just so happens he was a lieutenant in the royal navy...
1841 cenus- patrick, isle of man
elizabeth...age 40
margaret..age 15
david...age 14
agnes...age 10
elizabeth...age 4
isabella...age 3
christina...age 1...born 20/5/1840
1851 census- braddan, isle of man
peter...age 61...lieut to royal navy
elizabeth...age 50
elizabeth...age 14...born liverpool
christina...age 10
david...age 8
1861 census- braddan, isle of man
peter...age 72...lieut to royal navy on 1/2 pay
elizabeth...age 60
isabella...age 22
christina...age 20
1871 census- sankey mill
john...age 59...sugar refiner
agnes...age 39
henry...age 8
nora...age 6
james...age 4
elizabeth blyth...visitor...age 34...born liverpool
elizabeth blyth...visitor...age 6 months...born isle of man
Joe
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hi pal,
see that peter petrie was the son of peter and agnes waugh born 3/10/1789 in kinghorn fife, the family moved to boness as their daughter agnes was born there in 1807.
Joe
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hi pal,
se that elizabeth grindley was christened 4/6/1800 boness and was the daughter of walter and margaret scott.
1841 census- toxteth park, lancashire
walter...age 70...merchant
margaret...age 60
isabella...age 25
richard...age 20
helen...age 20
1851 census- toxteth park
walter...age 82...ship owner
margaret...age 73
isabella...age 40
richard...age 32...ship broker
agnes petrie...grand-daughter..age 20
isabella petrie...grand-daughter...age 12
1861 census- toxteth park
margaret..age 83...widow
isabella..age 52
william...age 30
Joe
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hi pal,
another piece of the jigsaw...
1861 census- ronaldsway house, isle of man
john blyth...age 39...farmer
margaret blyth...wife...age 33
agnes w petrie...sister-in-law...age 26...officer's daughter
david petrie...brother-in-law...ag app
Joe
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Hello again !
The Bo'ness connection is one that really interests me as my Gt Gt Grandfather John Thomson's (the sugar refiner's) first wife Jamima Stephens was born in Bo'ness too.
Jamima was the daughter of a the local school master another "John" Stephens & Jane Clarke Brunton. She was their 4th child They had married on 25 Dec 1820 in Bo'ness. Their 7th child James Brunton Stephens went on to become a well known poet in Australia so there was a little about the family on a Bo'ness internet site.
Jamima was christened on 30 Nov 1828 and died at Sankey Hill in Lancashire the day after giving birth to my Gt Grandfather.
I can't help but feel there must be some link between the 2 Thomson branches & I'm still hoping that might help me find out where John Thomson the sugar refiner came from & who his parents were. There are recurring threads leading to Bo'ness then Liverpool & there seems to be a nautical thread too appearing.
In the IGIs I narrowed it down to about 12 John Thomson births/christenings's who were sons of John Thomson's but then of course he mightn't even be in the IGIs
John's obituary mentioned that he had died at Old Melarum, Aberdeen which was incorrect as his death certificate (which I have)said he died at his home in Chester. I know I'm clutching at straws but I wonder if the reporter got it wrong & he was born there or came from there??? I do realise my imagination is running away with me at this point but I thought I should mention the place as this is all the information I have.
Agnes Waugh Petrie married John Thomson on the Isle of Man 9 June 1869 Kirk Rushen, Isle Of Man, England. Her last name is transcribed in the IGIs as Petris. John's name is transcribed as Thornson for his marriage to Jamima in Free BMDs - perhaps it was the Scottish accent!
It is all so intriguing! thank you so much for all you have done.
Liz
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It's not just the transcription which is incorrect, but also the index itself. It could either be his accent or the handwriting misread at some stage of the process between marriage register through to GRO Index.
Have you tried checking for any wills? I can't imagine that such prominent men, particularly the one connected with the sugar refinery, which was a large firm, would have died intestate. They might be quite revealing if they mention children or other relatives.
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The National ARchives site has a few interesting looking documents about the career of some Petrie Thomsons. http://www.a2a.org.uk/
John Thomson Petrie 1918 Medal Card
George Petrie Thomson 1885, born Kirkmichael, Perthshire, Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Don't know if this is of interest but seems free to download a passenger list for the Caledonia, 1949, departure point Bombay, arrival Liverpool, mention of person with a middle name "Petrie" http://www.movinghere.org.uk/search/catalogue.asp?RecordID=45459
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Fabulous Mary- thank you!!
I had never heard of the "moving here" web site, bother I have to get to work now though!! How frustrating!!!
Yes I do have John (sugar refiners) will or at least the documents relating to it which were given to his children. It only mentions his children and Agnes. Agnes was given the use of the house he built in his retirement and it's contents for the duration of her life, Plymyard Towers in Chester so it was intriguing to see that she didn't stay there but moved in firstly with Harry then after Harry died with her family. A very helpful man from the Plymyard Allotment Society and someone from the local historical society helped me to pin down the house and even a photo of it. Which as you can imagine was wonderful to have.
Thank you so much (again) Mary.
Liz
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Hi, I am going off track a bit here but I was born in Plymyard Towers in 1965.It was knocked down when I was about 3 years old.It had it's own tree lined entrance from Plymyard Avenue.I have never known any of it's history until now.Would it be possible to post the picture please? thank you
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Hi Dean
Happy to send you a photo but the image I have is too large to post here perhaps if you send me your email address via a personal message I could send it on (it's over 3Mb & the site only takes up to 500Kb I think).
Great to find out when it was eventually demolished - thanks for that.
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Thanks Liz, I will.As new member I cannot yet use the PM facility.As soon as I can I will forward my email address to you, thanks again
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Hi Liz
I would love to have a picture of Plymyard Towers. I am researching my grandmother for my Dad. She worked at Plymyard Towers in 1911 and I got onto this werbsite by Googling it. So, like Dean, I am new to this. Please could you send me a picture and I can include it in my Dad's folder. Thank you vm.
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Hi vm
More than happy to send you a photo. I've sent you a PM with my email address.
I'll look forward to hearing from you.
regards
Liz