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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Aberdeenshire => Scotland => Aberdeenshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: roycymru on Sunday 25 November 07 12:40 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to confirm the parentage of Alexander GRAY and Margaret MORTIMER married 17 Dec 1853 (O.P.R. Marriages 203/ 0020 0144 Insch (Aberdeen)). Information passed down from one of my aunts states Alexander GRAY's parents as James GRAY and Mary SHERIFFS, and Margaret MORTIMER's parents as George MORTIMER and Jean DAWSON. Is anyone able to confirm this and if so also provide any more information on their parent (date place of birth)?
I have Alexander GRAY b.abt 1835 in Insch and Margaret MORTIMER b. abt 1837 in Oyne (gleaned from later Census records).
Thank you
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Alexander Gray, the son of James Gray and Mary Sherrifs was born at Insch on 24 Oct 1830. Margaret Mortimer who was the daughter of George Mortimer and Jean Dawson was born at Oyne on 14 Oct 1833.
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After a little more searching:-
1851 Census of Insch
Upper Boddam
James Gray 44 Ag Lab b. Auchterless
Mary " 42 b. Insch
John " 16 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Insch
Ann " 13 Indoor Servant b. Insch
George " 10 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Forgue
William " 6 Pauper Insane b. Insch
Mary Gray (nee Sherrifs was born on 12 Jul 1809 at Insch, her parents being Alexander Gray and Jean Robb).
George Mortimer was born 2 Apr 1794, Oyne - father, George Mortimer.
Jean Mortimer (nee Dawson) was born 9 Aug 1798 Oyne - father Andrew Dawson. Hope this helps.
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Excellent work. Thank you very much
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I have looked on the census for Alexander Gray and Margaret and family and I think I have found them. My only concern is that their DOB seem to get progressively later and then finally down again! In all the census Alexander is listed as born in Insch and Margaret as born in Oyne. From your research they were born in 1830 and 1833 respectively. However in 1861 (Parish: Keig, ED:1, Line 25) their birth years are abt. 1833 and 1835 respectively. In 1871 (where George the next in my lines of descedants is mentioned), (Parish: Tullynestle and Forbes, ED:3, Line 18) their birth years are abt 1835 and 1837 respectively. In 1881 (Parish: Tullynessle anf Forbes, ED:2, Line 7) their birth years are both abt 1836) and in 1891 (Parish Tullynessle and Forbes, ED:2, Line 9) they go back down to 1831 and 1833 respectively!
Do you think they were not truthfull in the middle or have I somehow come across another Alexander Gray and Margret from Insch and Oyne respectively?
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After a little more searching:-
1851 Census of Insch
Upper Boddam
James Gray 44 Ag Lab b. Auchterless
Mary " 42 b. Insch
John " 16 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Insch
Ann " 13 Indoor Servant b. Insch
George " 10 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Forgue
William " 6 Pauper Insane b. Insch
Mary Gray (nee Sherrifs was born on 12 Jul 1809 at Insch, her parents being Alexander Gray and Jean Robb).
George Mortimer was born 2 Apr 1794, Oyne - father, George Mortimer.
Jean Mortimer (nee Dawson) was born 9 Aug 1798 Oyne - father Andrew Dawson. Hope this helps.
As a general question James ans Mary had 3, Pauper Insanes living with them which seems unusual. Can anyome please give me a further insight into why this might be.
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I too am puzzled at there being two children described as Pauper, Insane, and Dumb with a third being Pauper, Insane. One maybe, but three ? Can anyone comment ?
As regards the ages given in the Census I wouldn't worry too much. It's not unusual to find them varying by several years.
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After a little more searching:-
1851 Census of Insch
Upper Boddam
James Gray 44 Ag Lab b. Auchterless
Mary " 42 b. Insch
John " 16 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Insch
Ann " 13 Indoor Servant b. Insch
George " 10 Pauper Insane(Dumb) b. Forgue
William " 6 Pauper Insane b. Insch
Mary Gray (nee Sherrifs was born on 12 Jul 1809 at Insch, her parents being Alexander Gray (corrected s/be SHERRIFFS) and Jean Robb).
George Mortimer was born 2 Apr 1794, Oyne - father, George Mortimer.
Jean Mortimer (nee Dawson) was born 9 Aug 1798 Oyne - father Andrew Dawson. Hope this helps.
As a general question James ans Mary had 3, Pauper Insanes living with them which seems unusual. Can anyome please give me a further insight into why this might be.
Hi. Are you able to find a record of the marriage of Alexander Sheriffs/Sheriff/Sherrifs/Sherrif/Sherifs/Sherif to Jean Robb a I can't. Thanks
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The IGI has a submitted entry for the marriage of Alexander Sherrifs and Jean Robb at Insch on 21 Feb 1799 but I could find no record of it on ScotlandsPeople. I suppose it's just possible that SP overlooked it when indexing in which case the only way to settle the matter would be to examine the Insch Parish Register of Marriages for 1799.
Given that the submission has an exact date he/she may have found it in a family bible. Perhaps someone could advise how to contact the Church of Latter-Day Saints.
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Thanks. Alternatively does anyone have access to these Parish records to confirm?
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You could contact the Aberdeen & N.E. Scotland FHS who hold the Old Parish Registers of Baptisms & Marriages for every parish in Aberdeenshire including Insch.
Their E-mail address: enquiries@anesfhs.org.uk
Their website: www.anesfhs.org.uk
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Hi There,
The best way to confirm that you have the right parents.....is to buy the Death certificates of Margaret Gray nee Mortimer and then the death of her husband....from Scotlandspeople..
..why don't you just do that?.....
also you could find the deaths of the unfortunate children to learn a bit more about them..
..if you need any instruction as to how to go about this...just ask and help will happily arrive..
regards,
JO
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Hi There,
The best way to confirm that you have the right parents.....is to buy the Death certificates of Margaret Gray nee Mortimer and then the death of her husband....from Scotlandspeople..
..why don't you just do that?.....
also you could find the deaths of the unfortunate children to learn a bit more about them..
..if you need any instruction as to how to go about this...just ask and help will happily arrive..
regards,
JO
Hi
Good idea. Can you please advise on the best way to search on ScotlandsPeople to narrow down the death dates Margaret Gray (nee Mortimer) and Alexander Gray as if I do a general search I am bound to pick up other Margaret Mortimers and Alexander Grays? (Same query for the deaths of the children). Also if before a certain date will the death certificates contain the names of both parents? Thanks
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Hi Roy
In terns of searching for Margaret make sure you put in both her married and maiden name and an approximate year of birth. This will narrow results down.
Death certs are only available from 1855 onwards and will all have both parents names including mother's maiden name, the parents occupations and if they are alive or not. If not will have (deceased) under their names
Alexander's will yield more results so the more info you put in e.g. approx date of birth and place will narrow it down. You may end up opening duds so the more you narrow the search the better.
Best wishes
Ann
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Hello roycymru,
There is a useful thread - "Optimise Scotlandspeople searches" - 'stickied' near the top of the Scotland General board. The link to it is:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
Information on what you can expect to see on images is in the 'What's in the Database' section of ScotlandsPeople. For Statutory Register certificates, the link is:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&628
Incidentally, the marriage on 24 Feb 1799 is on SP (a free search refining the parameters found it). Jean ROBB & Alexr SHERIFFS. I first tried looking for a Jean Robb marriage in 1799 - there was only one. I added Alex*r Sh*r*f* as spouse and there was still one. Then tried changing to Alexander - no matches! Tried Alexr, still the one match. And so on ...
JAP
PS: An SP search for a Margaret GRAY, other name MORTIMER, birth 1833 +/- 5 years gets only 2 hits. Adding mother's ms DAWSON gets no hits - the informant may well not have known it, or it might not have been indexed. Refining the parameters shows that one died in 1912 age 80, and the other in 1899 age 71. Of course, it might be that neither of these is yours ... But if one is, then the certificate should indicate whether or not Alexander was alive - which would help narrow the search for him.
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This was an answer given to a query on TalkingScot recently
Apparently, when the records were indexed the maiden name of the mother wasn't included in the index...even though it does appear on the record (when the informant knew what it was). I believe I read (probably on SP) that they are beginning to index maiden names.
which would explain why adding the mother's maiden name gives no results in the search. A check in 1901 census may indicate which of the two may be the one required?
Trish
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This may be them in 1901
Alford Aberdeenshire Zanzibar Cottage
Alexander Gray 68 general labourer born Insch
Margaret Gray 66 labourer's wife born Oyne
James Gray 27 lailor (Sailor?) born Tullynessle
Lizzie Mortimer Gray 19 born Alford
If this is the family, the death in 1912 seems more likely, although age has changed again :)
Trish
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Hi Trish,
With the benefit of your census information, I just went back to SP and selected the district 'Alford' for the 1912 death of Margaret GRAY/MORTIMER - bingo, still a match!
That's correct about the mother's maiden name not being in the original deaths index - which is why I said that the informant might not have known it or it might not have been indexed. As I recall, there was a somewhat 'spirited' discussion on the old SP Discussion Group between those (like me) who thought that adding the m.s. to the index should be a high priority task and those who emphatically disagreed ;)
The 'What's in the Database' section of SP currently states the following:
Note 1:The maiden surname of the deceased’s mother appears on most register entries (if known by the informant). However, it was not captured on the deaths index. The GROS are in the process of adding mothers maiden surname to the index, as and when they can, starting with the earlier entries. (Occasionally you may also find it recorded in later index entries, but this is due to individual record updates).
JAP
PS: An Alexander GRAY died in Alford in 1908, age 77.
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Every week a different small piece of research makes me realise how much I like RC. When 3 or 4 folks look at a query from a different angle - a question such as "how do I confirm the parents" seems to be resolved without having to spend 30 credits on SP looking at the wrong records 8) 8)
Trystan & Sarah have generated a little marvel
Trish
Then again - I hope these are the correct folks :-[ :-[
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roycymru,
Not sure whether you know that all of the Aberdeenshire 1841 census, and much/most of the 1851, are on FreeCEN.
If the parents you had turn out to be the right ones (from the death certificates), then George MORTIMER (68, b Chapel of Garioch) and Jean (52, b Oyne) are still alive in Oyne in 1851 - Jean as Jane.
The IGI has a George MORTIMER b Chapel of Garioch 1783, parents William MORTIMER & Jean REID. A free search on SP, refining parameters, finds that a George MORTIMER, mother's maiden surname REID, age 75, died in 1858 in Oyne.
The IGI has a Jean DAWSON b Oyne 1798, father Andrew DAWSON, mother not named. There is an IGI marriage for an Andw DAWSON & a Mary TOUGH, 1782, Oyne. A free search on SP as before, finds that a Jane MORTIMER, other surname DAWSON, mother's maiden surname TOUGH, age 56, died in 1855 in Oyne.
Regards,
JAP
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roycymru,
Following the same track for Alexander's parents, James GRAY (44, b Auchterless) and Mary GRAY (42, b Insch) are in Insch in the 1851 census.
The IGI has a baptism of a James GRAY, parents Alexander GRAY & Elizabeth GREENLAW in 1804 in Auchterless - might be this James though age is a bit out. SP doesn't have a death of a James GRAY with mother's maiden name Green* - but perhaps it is not yet indexed. There is the death of a James GRAY, age 82, in 1889 in Insch - might be the right James.
The IGI has a birth of a Mary SHERRIFFS, parents Alexander SHERRIFFS & Jean ROBB in 1809 in Insch. SP has the death of a Mary GRAY, other surname SHERIFFS (mother's m.s. ROB* not showing), age 60, in 1871 in Insch.
Regards,
JAP
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As a general question James ans Mary had 3, Pauper Insanes living with them which seems unusual. Can anyome please give me a further insight into why this might be.
I don't know the answer, but I've been puzzling recently over a family in my tree in which most of the sons were deaf, but all the daughters were unaffected (or at least had no disability recorded in the censuses). I don't know whether it is coincidence that the affected children were males, but it does look as though the deafness is likely to have been an inherited trait.
The term "insane" was used rather widely and wildly in the 19th century to denote all sorts of conditions which now we would not associate with mental illness or incapacity at all. It may well be that there was some heritable condition in the Gray family which caused notable disability including, in some cases, muteness or in inability to utter intelligible language, but I wouldn't want to speculate on what that condition might have been (since it would be nothing but guesswork!).
Anna
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Anna,
Yours is a very thoughtful post.
If roycymru follows up on death certs which have been mentioned on this thread, and others which have not, he/she might well find further clues to the family's medical history.
It seems that Alexander b 1830 survived and went on to marry and have children. What happened to James b 1832 and Anne b 1837 I think we don't know (both were with the parents in 1841 but neither in 1851).
Regardless, one has to feel so terribly sad for poor James GRAY & (perhaps more particularly the mother) Mary SHERIFFS and the tragic situation of their young ones. What a difficult life the family must surely have had - though it seems that James & Mary must have done their very best by their afflicted sons given the ages to which they lived.
It's one thing to delve into people's pasts as an interesting puzzle but when one comes across something so sad it really does hit one that these were not just names on a page but real persons living and suffering and coping as best they could in very difficult circumstances ...
Regards,
JAP
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Wow! Thanks everyone. I have been following up other lines in the family tree in the interim and have just come back to this thread today and been pleasantly surprised by the work put in and the help given by everyone. It is very sad that they had so many handicapped children. My next brother up is mentally handicapped and therefore I have some appreciation of this. Though his seems to have been more as a result from complications during a home birth in the 50's rather than any genetic links, and there is no other recorded incidence of mental handicap within the genetic line that I am aware of.
I will read, digest, follow up links and get back to you
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roycymru,
Not sure whether you know that all of the Aberdeenshire 1841 census, and much/most of the 1851, are on FreeCEN.
If the parents you had turn out to be the right ones (from the death certificates), then George MORTIMER (68, b Chapel of Garioch) and Jean (52, b Oyne) are still alive in Oyne in 1851 - Jean as Jane.
The IGI has a George MORTIMER b Chapel of Garioch 1783, parents William MORTIMER & Jean REID. A free search on SP, refining parameters, finds that a George MORTIMER, mother's maiden surname REID, age 75, died in 1858 in Oyne.
The IGI has a Jean DAWSON b Oyne 1798, father Andrew DAWSON, mother not named. There is an IGI marriage for an Andw DAWSON & a Mary TOUGH, 1782, Oyne. A free search on SP as before, finds that a Jane MORTIMER, other surname DAWSON, mother's maiden surname TOUGH, age 56, died in 1855 in Oyne.
Regards,
JAP
Hi
Just to say I have now had a chance to download the death certificates for these and Mary Sherriffs and all are spot on. Thank you very much.
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Roy,
Margaret's parents, George Mortimer and Jean (Jane) Dawson were my 3 greats grandparents. I would be interested in comparing notes on our mutual research. Please contact me here or at my email address mortimer@montana.com. Thanks.
Randal Mortimer