RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: dennford on Thursday 20 December 07 13:32 GMT (UK)
-
I'm not too sure where to post this story so I shall start here, hoping it may generate some discussion.
There have been many arguments as to who were the first Europeans to visit Australia. However a not well known story is that of what were possibly the first Europeans to actually live here. Long before Cook the Dutch had been using Australia as a navigational aid en-route to Batavia. Now in 1712 the vessel Zuytdorp was wrecked off the coast of W.A. Although little is known of the fate of those on board, over the years it has been noted that a handfull of the mid west Aborigines do have some physical similarities to Europeans and that artifacts dating back several hundred years have used bindings tied using Dutch seamens knots. Allthough this would seem to give some remote suggestion that some of those Dutch could have survived and actually bred with Aborigines, it is not very convincing.
Genetics though gives us another avenue to follow. Porphyria variegata is a rare disease that would seem to have been prevalant in Holland in the 1600s/1700s and most cases were traceable to only two families. It spread from Holland to the Amish community in America and to the Dutch communities in South Africa. Now interestingly at the time that the Zuytdorp made it's fatefull voyage It stopped in South Africa. One of Capetowns residents, a young man called Hendrick Bibault was descended from one of those two families, Bibault was in ome sort of trouble with the Capetown authorities and was deported aboard the Zuytdorp, therefore sharing the same fate as everyone else aboard.
This now brings us to the most convincing evidence that he probably survived and the posibility that his ancestors are this day living inn the mid west of W.A. It has been found that there is an incidence among mid west aborigines of porphyria variegata that exists nowhere ele in Australia.
This is just but a brief outline of the whole story, but it makes one wonder what other proof lies out there.
Denn
-
hi dennford
next step would seem to be DNA
although would any one be willing to give a sample
there must be some kind of record with health authorities in australia
and worth a feather in the cap of a professional researcher
(or us plebs for that matter)
ev
-
Here is some info on our Hendrick B. but it needs someone who dpeaks Dutch to translate.
HENDRIK BIEBOUW OPGESPOOR
Volgens http://voc.websilon.nl/
Persoonsgegevens van - Hendrick Bibou
Herkomst:- De caab.
Rang: - Matroos
Datum einde verbintenis: - 20/03/1719
Einde verbintenis: - Overleden
Plaats einde verbintenis: Azie
Gegevens van de vaart
Schip: Zandenburg Inventarisnr.: 12771
Kamer: Zeeland Folio: 84
Uitreis: 005-004-1716 Bestemming: Batavia
DAS- en reisnr 2266.4 Aankomst: 26-10-1716
Hierdie data bevestig nou die feite dat Hendrik Biebouw wel soos vermoed was in die diens van die VOC getree het. Maar die teorie dat hy op die skip Zuytdorp was of dat hy dalk genetiese afstammelinge onder die Aborigines nagelaat het is buite die kwessie.
From this site
http://www.stamouers.com/biebouw.htm
-
And another one that would seem to verify the story (using google translation).
http://www.geocities.com/sa_stamouers/biebouw.htm
Denn
-
Hi Denn, very interesting theory, i have relations in Albany, WA, and visited there in 2004, whilst there i read quite a lot about the European population growth, one of the books referred to a group of seamen put ashore for mutiny, no one knows whether they survived, but a theory was that they reached a Aborigine community and created a tribe of light skinned natives somewhere in the outback between Perth and Darwen, but i think your suggestion is more plausible.
Merry Christmas, Bodger
-
Hi Denn
I have asked someone who lives in Netherlands to come and take a look - she is already a member of Roots.
Jenny
-
Interesting.
I googled for that disease, but the answer is too medically technical for understanding ... am I right in thinking its a skin disease ? Causing discolouration ? Any medical person who can clarify please ?
-
Here is some info on our Hendrick B. but it needs someone who dpeaks Dutch to translate.
HENDRIK BIEBOUW OPGESPOOR
Volgens http://voc.websilon.nl/
Persoonsgegevens van - Hendrick Bibou
personal info on HB
Herkomst:- De caab.
came from - place De Caab
Rang: - Matroos
rank - sailor
Datum einde verbintenis: - 20/03/1719
date he ended service...
Einde verbintenis: - Overleden
end of service : Death
Plaats einde verbintenis: Azie
place of end of service : Asia
Gegevens van de vaart
details of the voyage
Schip: Zandenburg Inventarisnr.: 12771
ship : Zandenburg inventary number 12771
Kamer: Zeeland Folio: 84
Place : Zealand Folio: 84
Uitreis: 005-004-1716 Bestemming: Batavia
departure 5/4/1716 destination Batavia
DAS- en reisnr 2266.4 Aankomst: 26-10-1716
DAS?? and Journey number 2266.4 arrival 26/10/1716
Hierdie data bevestig nou die feite dat Hendrik Biebouw wel soos vermoed was in die diens van die VOC getree het. Maar die teorie dat hy op die skip Zuytdorp was of dat hy dalk genetiese afstammelinge onder die Aborigines nagelaat het is buite die kwessie.
Here the information confirms the fact that HB as was suspected, had joined the service of the VOC . But the theory that he was on the ship Zuytdorp, and that he left descendants under the aborigines is out of the question.
From this site
http://www.stamouers.com/biebouw.htm
translation
mm
-
Here is some info on our Hendrick B. but it needs someone who dpeaks Dutch to translate.
HENDRIK BIEBOUW OPGESPOOR
Volgens http://voc.websilon.nl/
Persoonsgegevens van - Hendrick Bibou
personal info on HB
Herkomst:- De caab.
came from - place De Caab
Rang: - Matroos
rank - sailor
Datum einde verbintenis: - 20/03/1719
date he ended service...
Einde verbintenis: - Overleden
end of service : Death
Plaats einde verbintenis: Azie
place of end of service : Asia
Gegevens van de vaart
details of the voyage
Schip: Zandenburg Inventarisnr.: 12771
ship : Zandenburg inventary number 12771
Kamer: Zeeland Folio: 84
Place : Zealand Folio: 84
Uitreis: 005-004-1716 Bestemming: Batavia
departure 5/4/1716 destination Batavia
DAS- en reisnr 2266.4 Aankomst: 26-10-1716
DAS?? and Journey number 2266.4 arrival 26/10/1716
Hierdie data bevestig nou die feite dat Hendrik Biebouw wel soos vermoed was in die diens van die VOC getree het. Maar die teorie dat hy op die skip Zuytdorp was of dat hy dalk genetiese afstammelinge onder die Aborigines nagelaat het is buite die kwessie.
Here the information confirms the fact that HB as was suspected, had joined the service of the VOC . But the theory that he was on the ship Zuytdorp, and that he left descendants under the aborigines is out of the question.
From this site
http://www.stamouers.com/biebouw.htm
translation
mm
So that rules out our "Hendrik" as he died some time after the shipwreck.
-
Hi Denn, very interesting theory, i have relations in Albany, WA, and visited there in 2004, whilst there i read quite a lot about the European population growth, one of the books referred to a group of seamen put ashore for mutiny, no one knows whether they survived, but a theory was that they reached a Aborigine community and created a tribe of light skinned natives somewhere in the outback between Perth and Darwen, but i think your suggestion is more plausible.
Merry Christmas, Bodger
Bodger. they were two of the Batavia mutineers - Jan Pelgrom and Woeter Looes, the only ones not hanged on the Abrohlas or taken back to Batavia for trial.
Denn
-
Oh for gawd sake,
I though that was maybe old fashioned Dutch, but ive just cottoned on....its Afrikaans...hehehe ive just translated africaans :D
mm
-
and whats more De Caab is in South Africa...this fella was South African.
mm
-
Interesting.
I googled for that disease, but the answer is too medically technical for understanding ... am I right in thinking its a skin disease ? Causing discolouration ? Any medical person who can clarify please ?
Apparently, there is a theory that King George III had porphria and that is what contributed to his bouts of, so called, madness.
-
Wether or not it is a skin disease in itself, I am not sure. But from my limited understanding it apparantly causes skin sensitivity and allergies.
I may have been wrong in the statement that it spread from Holland. There are several references to it starting in South Africa (among the Dutch and white African population). In fact I have read that all 30,000 cases can be traced back to two ancestors -Gerrit Janz and Ariaantje Jacobs who married in Capetown in 1688. Whoever confirmed that must have been a busy boy.
Interesting from this site
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fsa_stamouers%2Fbiebouw.htm
Dr. Geoffrey Dean from Dublin an expert in this disease looked at this common connection. One of the theories is that both Hendrik Biebouw's mother and his mother's half sister Willemyntje Ariens de Witt (married to Gert Jansz van Deventer) were the carriers of this disease. One of the theories is that both Henry Biebouw's mother and his mother's half sister Willemyntje Ariens de Witt (married to Gert Jansz van Deventer) were the carriers of this disease. However more recent research indicate that they are two different strands of the disease .
Denn
-
This web site might give members more understandable information of a large variety of symptoms.
www.porphyriafoundation.com/
Beth
-
Thanks Elizabeth.
This site gives info about the sort that King George III must have had (basing my knowledge solely on the film 'The Madness of King George' !)
http://www.porphyriafoundation.com/about_por/types/types01.html
It even mentions the blue urine !
If this is what the aboringinals had, the blue pee must have been a bit of a shock ! Or maybe it became a status thing ?
-
If this is what the aboringinals had, the blue pee must have been a bit of a shock ! Or maybe it became a status thing ?
It would have shocked me too! :o :o
Denn
-
Porphyria is supposedly the basis for the vampire legends, too, as some of the disorders are similar to characteristics of vampires: sensitivity to sunlight, appetite for blood and personality changes. Supposedly.
Cheers,
China
-
Denn,
I lived in Northampton some years ago (the one just past Geraldton) and noticed that the Aboriginals there were stockier than I was used to, and amongst the kids there was a huge amount of fair hair, this doesn't prove anything but just an observation.
-
Hi All,
I think this is a fair (pardon the pun!) comment but we have to keep in mind that the northern coast of Western Australia is very much closer to the Dutch East Indies than South Africa.
This is a very interesting thread about a little known part of Australian history, thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Andcarred
-
Hi Andcarred,
The reason that the Dutch had contact with the west coast of Oz after Sth Africa was that it made navigation easy for them at a time when the accuracy of calculating longditude was a hit and miss affair. What they would do was sail with the weather on a latitude that they knew would bring them eventually to the coast of W.A. on sighting the coast, all that was then needed was to turn left and follow the coast and known islands untill reaching the D.E.I.
The main problems were many uncharted reefs or "abrolhos", aparantly the word abrolhos is derived from a portugese word meaning to keep your eyes open. This was compounded by the difficulty in calculating longcitude, they often reached these submerged abrolhos earlier than anticipated thereby coming to grief - the W.A. coast is littered with shipwrecks.
Your comment about the proximity of the D.E.I. to Oz is of coarse quite correct and the Indonesians have for ever (and still do) fished in Australian waters, and I think one would have to be silly not to expect some migration and interbreeding. However Sat here thinking I imagine that the Dutch would on leaving Indonesia use a different route back to Europe, thereby completely missing Oz on the return journey.
Denn
-
There is a similar suggestion of Dutch settlement in central Australia in a Les Hiddens (the Bush Tucker Man) Book.
It involves a story that was published in the Leeds Mercury in 1834 supposedly written by a man who had been to Australia and encountered a "lost white tribe" in Central Australia. See http://www.voc.iinet.net.au/palmv.html for a more detailed description of the story.
The book describes Les's attempts to verify the facts as stated in the old newspaper and he makes some discoveries and suggestions that left me believing it was an exagerated account, but plausible.
Sandra
-
Sandra,
That was an interesting read. However I rather think that the story is made up of a few facts with much embellishment.
I don't have a great deal of time to spare at the moment but I would make the following points,
"Their traditional history is, that their fathers were compelled by famine, after the loss of their great vessel, to travel towards the rising sun, carrying with them as much of the stores as they could...."
Wouldn't records of such a vessel be available from "VOC" - they have records of all ships that they operated.
For anyone to traverse the thousands of kilometers suggested and through such inhospitable country as the great sandy dessert would be a feat in itself without even considering the many tons of stores that they must have taken.
"I saw below me at the distance of about three or four miles, a low and level country, laid out as it were in plantations, with straight rows of trees, through which a broad sheet of smooth water extended in nearly a direct line from east to west, as far as the eye could reach to the westward,"
Such copious amounts of water aren't feasable in this area
"And what fixed me to the spot with indescribable sensations of rapture and admiration was the number of small boats or canoes with one or two persons in each gliding along the narrow channels [sic] between the islands in every direction, some of which appeared to be fishing or drawing nets."
"about three hundred; that they lived in houses enclosed all together within a great wall "
Yet with such a community there seems to be nothing remaining apart from this one mans account - either physically or verbally to show that they ever existed. It is also noted that this is an acount about a "secret" british mission of which there appears to be no record.
Now having said all that I do believe that there is compelling evidence that there have been some Dutch influence in the interior, but I personally doubt that there would be anything like this.
Denn
-
i havn't got a clue on that one