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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: T.R. on Friday 04 January 08 07:48 GMT (UK)
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I am researching for a connection between Ratcliffe or Ratcliff family at Hampton Wick circa 1836. Kingston On Thames circa 1775 - 1836, and possibly Dorking 1600- 1775.
Is there anyone else searching this line or am I alone?
t.r.
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Hi T.R.
If you go to the Surname Interest page (link at the bottom of this page) there are a few people researching Ratcliff (e) but I can't see any Surrey research there :( it's mostly up north.
I've just looked at my copy of Dorking pr's & the name with many variations does appear there from early dates so let me know if I can help.
jane
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Jane
Thank you for the offer to help.
I just went to preview my reply and somehow lost the entire message so I Need to start again.
I really need to confirm a family between Kingston On Thames and Dorking. I am not confident about moving forward until I can do this and I have been stuck here for some years.
I have found the family at Kingston On Thames with baptisms 1791 - 1808. The father is William Ratcliffe and the mother is Mary (nee Marshall source marriage allegation.
The allegation does not give the brithplace of either. The IGI gives a William Ratcliffe Born about 1772. There is also William Ratcliff baptised at Dorking 1.4.1774 and a Mary Marshall baptised at Dorking on 2.2.1769. This would make Mary 5 years older than William, but it would fit.
There are a couple of circumstances which makes Dorking a possibility:
1. A Henry was born at Kingston on Thames on 17.11.1771 and his parents were Peter Ratcliff and Mary. He is the only child of this couple appearing there. However the age is right and in addition to a son William, Peter and Mary also had two deceased children at Dorking one named Peter and the other named Henry both died in 1773.
2. The father of William of Dorking was named Peter Ratcliff and a Peter Ratcliff married a Mary Rose at Saint Olave Southwark on 19.6.1768. Two generations later, William Ratcliffe of Kingston on Thames names a daughter Mary Rose. Perhaps she was named after her grandmother Mary Rose.
The wife of William of Kingston On Thames was buried at Hampton in 1811. The register does not give her birthplace and her husband is only described as a 'newcomer'. William does not appear in the BMD register after 1837 and the registers for Hampton and Teddington 1811- 1837 yielded nothing. Perhaps the Kingston On Thames contain a reference to his death?
I am awaiting the arrival of a copy of an administration for the estate of an earlier Peter Ratcliff of Dorking (died 1729) but I am not really hopeful that it will refer to a later a generational shift from Dorking to Kingston On Thames.
So this is where I have been stuck. :-\ I really need to confirm whether there is any connection to Dorking or otherwise.
If you can point me in the right direction it will be most helpful. If not, thank you for reading this far and thank you for the offer to help.
I am just going to post the message this time and and not going to risk a review of the.
My regards
t.r.
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Mmmm, I see your problem :(
From the Surrey Burial Index;
Peter Ratcliff 21/2/1754 Dorking
Peter Ratcliff 1/6/1773 Dorking
Did Peter Ratcliffe who died in 1729 die in Dorking? As I can't see the burial for him.
One marriage from the Surrey Marriage Index; Peter Ratcliff to Sarah Boxshal 5/11/1743 at Dorking & both of that parish.
I've checked for wills at Surrey Plus Wills & the TNA Documents Online with no success. Have you had a look for settlement certificates or removal orders? These would be at the Surrey History Centre at Woking but I had a look at their online catalogue with no success. The Dorking Local History Group might have some documentation. They have a data base so it's worth asking.
http://www.surreycommunity.info/dorkinglocalhistorygroup/
Not a great deal of help I know but maybe there's something there for you :-\
jane
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Jane
Thank you for looking and for replying. You certainly seem to know your way around.
As far as I know Peter Ratcliff died intestate at Dorking in 1729. His son Paul Radcliffe (brother of Peter Racliffe = Sara Boxshal applied for administration of the estate.
Those are the administration papers that I am waiting for from London Metropolitan Archives.
The LMA have advised that administration documents have not been put on- line in any form. However, I was given the document number from another source so I have been able to make the request.
I have previously queried the History Centre at Woking about relocation records but they weren't able to help. I am not sure whether I contacted Dorking or not but I will try there.
Mt thanks and my regards
t.r.
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Hi T.R.
Well, I've just discovered something interesting. There is a gap in the Dorking burial registers. The last entry is 16/6/1726 & picks up again 24/1/1732, that's why Peter doesn't appear on the Surrey Burial Index, 1729 falls within that 6 year gap :(
I'm very curious as to your source for the LMA document number for the letters of Admon, as it might help solve a puzzle in my own research...do tell ;)
jane
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Jane
I received the administration document number form a contact who was searching in Surrey. She thought we were searching the same line but we weren't. I asked where she obtained the document number but she didn't reply. However, I still have her email address so I will contact her again.
Aren't these gaps frustrating. I seem to fall into a gap whichever way I go. records not filmed, documents missing ....
Following your advice, I am waiting on a reply from Dorking re the whereabouts of relocation records.
The burial records for Dorking that you checked are these Parish registers or cemetery records? Thank you for checking for me.
Regards
t.r.
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t.r.
Are there any tangible links between the Ratcliffes of Hampton and Kingston (which are very close to each other) and of those and the Ratcillfes of Dorking (which is some way away)? And those of Southwark, also a fair way away?
The name is not uncommon, and I fear there is you might be assuming a link where there is not one.
Sorry about that.
meles
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Meles
Thanks for the warning.
I need to confirm whether or not there is a before it is accepted as fact.
However, the best available evidence to date suggests that there is a connection between Kingston and Dorking.
Whether it extends to Southwark is an assumption that needs to be verified on the evidence available. However a Kingston/Dorking connection or a connection to somewhere else needs to be established.
Regards
t.r.
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It's worth holding on the the info.
I collected data from people with the same surname in villages 1 mile apart, but could not connect the families. 2 years later, I have finally made the link!
Good luck!
meles
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Hi T.R,
Where there are gaps in parish records, one normally seeks out Bishops Transcripts if they still exist. I can't find any evidence on the Surrey Burial Index that this has been done so could be worth looking in to.
Just been casting an eye over the Surrey Burial Index to see if I can spot anything. Worth noting are;
1. There are NO burials in Kingston for Ratcliffe or any of the spelling variations which leads me to believe if they were there it was only briefly.
2. The most burials for the Ratcliff (e) name seems to be in Epsom with 15, closely followed by Richmond, 8.
These parishes are not too far apart.
Looking for some of the older Ratcliffe's in the 1841 census, I found,
HO107/1075/bk5/11/6 Kingston Union Workhouse
Henry Ratcliffe 70 Miller Born in Surrey.
jane
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Jane
You have been busy on my behalf.
Sorry, I'm afraid that I don't understand the first three sentences and what needs to be done.
Are you saying that there are gaps or that there are no gaps in the Surrey register? Or have you already answered this question by looking at the registers?
Would you put much weight in the 1841 census reference to Henry at the Workhouse? It suggests a birth year of 1771 whereas the birth of my possible Henry is 1775.
I have not followed the Epsom possibility. The IGI gives a William Ratcliffe baptised a with few years difference between him and the William of Dorking. I also recall that is that there was a problem with his probable at Epsom marriage date but I need to have another look to see why that connection did not seem feasible.
Regards
t.r.
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T.R, Yes, there are gaps in the actual burial records for Dorking. I checked on my fiche copy of the transcript. This is also reflected in the burials for Dorking on the Surrey Burial Index on CD. Obviously somewhere, somehow either the records for burials between 1726-1732 in Dorking were never recorded, or if they were, the register has been destroyed or lost. The incumbent of each parish was obliged to send copies of baptisms, marriages & burials to the Bishop of the diocese. If this was done & if they survive they might show the burial you're after. They are called Bishops Transcripts or B.T's for short & they would be at the Surrey History Centre at Woking.
As far as the 1841 census information is concerned, don't forget that ages were rounded down so Henry could have been anywhere between 70 & 74 or a birth date between 1767-1771, that's if his given age was correct ::) His presence there is just evidence that Ratcliffe's were in the Kingston area.
I think it's safe to say that William from Dorking wasn't buried there so he obviously moved away.
Apart from Henry buried 1773 & the two Peters there is only one other Ratcliffe buried in Dorking & that's Ann 6/12/1718 so I'm definately getting the impression this family didn't stay long in one place.
jane
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Jane
Thank you. Perhaps wanderlust is genetic and that it how we ended up in Australia.
To summarise:
1. I am waiting on the administration documents from London Metro Archives and hoping that it might refer to the whereabouts of later generations or some connection.
2. I have contacted Woking History service and been advised that settlement records are at the Dorking Museum. My query has been referred there. Perhaps they will reveal a relocation to Kingston on Thames.
3. That seems to be all that I can do at the Dorking end.
4.Perhaps I need to re-examine the death of William of Hampton and see if I can locate any record for his death. He married Mary Marshall at Hampton by licence on 17.1.1797. The Licence only states that both were of that Parish.
Mary died in 1811 and the Parish record indicates that her husband William was a newcomer. I had assumed that the wording suggested that William was still living at that time.
Hampton registers reveal no death of William in that Parish between 1811 and 1837 when civil records began. The BMD show nu death at Hampton either.
The BMD shows that a William died in 1838 but this is a son of Hampton Wick. That son was baptised at Kingston (I have a copy of the death certificate).
If I could find the death record relating to William senior, married at Hampton it might reveal his birthplace. However, as I have been unable to do thatand that is why I have tried to identify whether there is any link between the Dorking family (which seems to be the most plausible connection at this stage).
A phonetic search of the Free BMD gives two deaths in the name of William Ratcliffe at Kingston in September 1852. There are no other deaths in the area. This would mean that William senior would have been aged about aged 78 if he is the William who was baptised on 1.5.1774 at Dorking. Unfortunately the BMD index does not give the age.
At present this seems to be a strategy but perhaps there are other alternatives.
My regards
t.r.
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It seems that Hampton comes under the registration district of Kingston from 1837 & is in the county of Middlesex rather than Surrey! Strange, as I've always known Kingston as being in Surrey ??? Kingston certainly appears on the Surrey Burial Index so maybe there's an overlap here?
One William Ratcliffe buried 18/1/1835, age 77, Epsom; from the index.
Have a search for William Ratcliffe (with variants) on Familyhistoryonline for Middlesex. The index is free but it's pay per view to see the entry, a small fee but well worth it!
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
You've probably seen this site but explains to me why the Hampton records are at the LMA, it's in Middlesex!
http://www.hampton-online.co.uk/
jane
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Jane
Thank you.
The Epsom 1835 date and age of 77 really doesn't fit with the known dates of my line. Nor do other Epsom dates that I have found.
The Dorking settlement records haven't shown up anything. It seems that as the family owned property and would not have required a settlement certificate if, in fact, they moved from Dorking to Kingston On Thames circa 1774.
My remaining hope now seems to rest with the Dorking administration and probate and the possibility that it might shed some light on family movements. It might establish that the Dorking family stayed there or that they moved. But it is a faint hope as probate was granted in 1758 some 16 years earlier than any possible move to Kingston. I am waiting on the documents from LMA.
Otherwise I really need to locate the death of William Ratcliffe (married to Mary Marshall 17.1.1797).
William's children had their children at Kingston On Thames and his grandchildren were at Hampton Wick. Williams wife Mary was buried at Hampton in 1811, so it seems unlikely that William would have moved away.
I applied for the 1852 death certificate some time ago but at that time I was advised that as the person was not aged 80 years I received no further information. The reply wasn't very helpful as the age was only approximate (based in the IGI approximation), so I was left none the wiser about whether this William could be the one. Perhaps I need to apply again.
T.R.
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T.R. have you had a look at the familyhistoryonline site for William Ratcliffe's burial? As there's nothing showing on the Surrey index it's possible he died in an area not covered (metropolitan Surrey) or in nearby Middlesex.
Wills post 1858 are not covered on the TNA site so maybe explore that option?
All I can suggest is keep digging ;)
jane
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Jane
Attempting to trace the origins of William Ratcliffe born circa 1772 and married at Hampton 1797 has been a trial. :'(
Unless something comes out of the administration documents from LMA I will have run out of spades to dig with.
However, in relation to your query about the source of the reference to the estate administration documents for Dorking Here is the reply from my source.
“I found it during a visit to the Surrey History Centre. Having said that, I am almost positive that it was from a paper index of Wills that was on the shelf there. It was as small printed book. I'm sure they will know it if you ask them, the staff their directed me towards it at the time, but it was about four years ago now.”
I can’t add anything else but hope that this will be of use to you and others.
Jane thank you for your help. ;)
My regards
T.R.