RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: cmclayton on Wednesday 16 January 08 19:03 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone,
I am trying to find a James Henry Clayton my great grandfather, have posted on the New Zealand board but 2008 are going to be brave and post here.
From New Zealand certificates for James Henry Clayton and his children, he was born approx 1851 Harrow on the Hill Middlesex (I have not been able to find him or his family on the English census and the IGI records are unsourced) from ITM's he arrived in New Zealand approx 1870, his parents names from his death certificate were James Clayton and Kate Thomas and he died 1929 Tauranga New Zealand.
Family stories (which I know can be unture) are that James was an apprentice sailmaker, and his mother (Kate) paid this out and sent him to New Zealand, reasoning being that their was a death and that she wanted James gone. Once in New Zealand James started and owned a lot of newspapers and from his death notice he was educated in Bristol.
It would be very much appreciated if anyone can help me, or point me in the right direction. I have a sad feeling that James Henry Clayton was hiding something and has changed his name.
Thanks heaps for your time - Christine M Clayton
-
Hello Christine
Do you have James's marriage cert and does it name his father and/or his job?
They are usually much more reliable than death certs,as the person themselves isn't the one giving the info for that one 8)
I too can't see a James Clayton on any census in Harrow that fits :(
All is not lost quite yet though !
Carol
-
Hi Carol
New Zealand was still a young country in the 1870's and the only information at that time required on a marriage certificate was:-
When Married and Were
Name and Surname
Age
Rank or Profession
Condition
Name of Officiating Minister
I have two marriage certificates for James Henry Clayton in New Zealand. Marriage 1# to Caroline Waymouth in 1874 (James is full age and a gentleman) and marriage #2 to Emma Amelia Hester in 1875, (James widowed and an accountant) No parents mentioned on either certificate.
The profession of an accountant still makes me think he has well educated, don't think he had time to be a sailamker, and I do wonder if his parents came from either Scotland or Ireland.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Hi
Are just wondering if any of James Henry Clayton's childrens names could have anything to do with his parents family names. Have listed them just in case.
1/ Caroline Waymouth Clayton
(named after her mother - Caroline Waymouth)
2/ Henry Hester Clayton called Harry
(named after his father James Henry Clayton??? and mother Emma Hester)
3/ Ivy Clayton - no middle name
4/ Eva Clayton - no middle name
5/ Frank Lockwood Clayton
6/ Phillip Hastie Thomas Clayton
(Phillip was bought up has James and Emma Clayton's son, obtaining his birth certificate his mother was a Ida Clayton, same age and born in the same area as Ivy Clayton. Named after Kate Thomas??? or his true father???)
Perhaps it might help - thanks heaps Christine
-
Hi, just a up date,
I have found a Katherine Elizabeth Clayton death 1915 Eastbourne aged 86
makes her birth c1829 - could she be my James Henry Clayton's mother.
In the 1881 English Census she is living with her sister Ann B Savory, both woman are born Surrey England. From freebmd there is a Adey Bellamy Savory who marries a Ann Bristow Thomas, so my Katheine Elizabeth Clayton is a nee Thomas.
If I order these two death certificates for Kate Clayton and Ann Savory will these tell me their parents and husbands names????
Thanks heaps Christine M Clayton
-
Christine,
Can you give the 1881 reference as I cannot see either Ann B Savory or her sister Katherine E Clayton on it anywhere!
Sadly the death certs will not tell you the info you need.
See http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm which will tell you what you are likely to find on a death cert.
You may find their husbands names,but only if the person giving the info knew them.For example it might say widow of Joe Bloggs dustman or something ;D
Otherwise it will just give the informant which may or may not be family.
Will keep looking for you ;)
Regards
Carol
-
Hi Carol,
1891 - RG12/774 Folio 53 Page 40
1881 - RG11/853 Folio 105 Page 11
1841 - hopefuly this is them at school together Ann Thomas and Kate Thomas
HO107/689/13 Folio 58 Page 33
Can not find Katherine/Catherine Thomas in 1851 or 1861 as yet, or a marriage....
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Catherine says she was born in Brixton Surrey and her sister Ann in Croydon.
Here they are in 1871 RG10; Piece: 874; Folio: 17; Page: 26
There is a Katherine E Thomas in 1861 unmarried and lodging in Paddington Middlesex,who might fit.
RG9; Piece: 2; Folio: 150; Page: 2
I wonder if she never actually DID marry Mr Clayton,and her son was born with her maiden name? But where was he in 1861? With grandma perhaps.
It's late here now but will look again tomorrow.
Carol x
-
Hi!!
how about this as a possible for Katherine in 1851?
HO107 1699 707 7
Greenford Middx
William Dennis Harris 33
Ann wife 39
Katherine Allcock 60 unmarr visitor
Katherine Clayton 23 married visitor bn Surrey Brixton
Charles? Baxter or Barter 5 no relationship given, bn America
Sarah Cook servant
If this is her, she is already married to James, but no sign of baby James yet.
who on earth little 5 yr old Charles (or whatever, it is very faint) is, is anybody's guess!
-
Well done Liz,the search is certainly moving nearer to Harrow isn't it?
Carol
-
But I cant find a birth for young James
Only possible is a plain James Clayton in Croydon in Oc/Nov/Dec 1852 - maybe she went back to family for actual birth even though they lived around Harrow on the Hill.
Pure specualtion.
Cant find her "hubby" James in 1851, or marriage - yet!
-
Thank you Carol and Liz,
I nearly cried when I read this, finding Kate in 1851 married is great.
I have tried for nearly eight years to find James Henry Clayton back in England,
and his parents. Things have certainly moved forward, the most important thing
to me is that I could be a "Clayton" James didn't change his surname when he
arrived in New Zealand.
Thanks heaps Christine M Clayton
-
Hi
Have found on FamilySearch.org the following:
Do not know if these could be her has from the census she is Katherine with a "K" not a "C"
Catherine Elizabeth Thomas
birth 29/4/1829 England
chr. 9/8/1829 Southwark Surrey
parents Thos Thomas and Mary Ann
(Note - Have just found a family member for the above Catherine, and she is in the 1841 census with parents and two sisters Martha and Louise. I have a Catherine also in the 1841 census as a pupil
at school with her sister Ann, which I hope is her.)
Catherine Thomas
chr. 8/2/1829 Saint Saviour Southwark Surrey
parents James Beaumont Thomas and Elizabeth
Thanks Christine
-
Chris,
I have to say I'm wary of these two at school in Fulham in 1841.
They both say they were born in the county of Middlesex.
Whereas the Kate and Ann we have found were born in Brixton Surrey(South of the river Thames)
Liz has found a POSSIBLE Katherine in 1851,as I found a POSSIBLE one in 1861.
Neither have any other people living with them to confirm without a doubt that they are the right people.
Don't worry at all about the name not being spelt correctly. My own name often isn't even today- I am Carol,but often get it spelt Carole.So you can imagine the problem our ancestors faced if they couldn't read or write.They would just accept the spelling was correct,as they didn't know if it was or not ;)
My best pal is Kathleen (Kathy) but she is often spelt Cathy.
Carol
-
Hi Carol and Liz,
Just to let you know that I have sent for the death certificate of Katherine Elizabeth Clayton, there was a Louisa Lowe (housekeeper) living with Kate and Ann for years, so hoping she was still alive with a sound mind and his been an informat with this certificate. Also have sent for Ann Bristow Thomas and Adey Bellamy Savory, hoping this will help with parents.
I do wonder if Kate Thomas and James Clayton ever did marry, baby James may be a Thomas at birth and knowing his father was a Clayton has called himself this when he arrived in New Zealand.
I also have another family that when the husband is listed has married on the census with another wife and family, the first wife is listed as widowed. Perhaps Kate has listed her self as widowed when James really did marry.
Just some ideas that I had.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Christine,
I think you're very brave sending for so many certs ;D I will keep my fingers crossed(and I know Liz will too) that you actually get some useful info from them.
Let us know what the certs tell you,and we'll take up the challenge again.
If James was illegitimate though, I fear you may never be able to trace his roots all the way back.His mothers surname Thomas,may well have Welsh connections.....there's hundreds and hundreds of Thomas's in Wales ::)
All the best
Carol
-
Good morning Carol and Liz
Have received the death certificate for "Katherine Elizabeth Clayton"
14th February 1915 4 Hurst Road
Katherine Elizabeth Clayton
female 86 years
Of independant means widow of James Clayton of independant means
Death - Influenza, bronchitis
Informant - G.E Murly - nephew
On one of the census there was a Hilda Hurly niece - correct spelling could be Murly.
Thanks Christine
-
Also have received marriage certificate for
"Adey Bellamy Savory and Ann Bristow Thomas"
25th June 1846 London
Fathers - Adey Bellamy Savory - Goldsmith
and Samuel Thomas - Merchant
Witness - Mary Savory, Samuel Thoams, ?(w).C Savory, ?(L) Savory and Emma L Thomas
On a marriage certificate, if the father was deceased would this be noted or not? just
was wondering if Samuel Thomas a witness is the father or brother to Ann.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Just a few findings.
From Familysearch.org Samuel Thomas wife Sarah with children
Katherine Elizabeth Thomas birth - 17 Aug 1827, chr - 18 Nov 1827 St Margeret Lothbury London
Clarissa Martha Thomas birth - 18 June 1823, chr- 17 July 1823 St Margeret Lothbury London
From freebmd there is a Clarissa Martha Thomas married Kensington March 1845 to either a Brenchly/Jemmerson/Morris or Pattison
On the 1861 census where Katherine E Thomas is a lodger there is also a Clarissa M Blanchlq (Brenchly) lodger born Croydon Surrey.
What do you think??? - Christine
-
On a marriage certificate, if the father was deceased would this be noted or not? just was wondering if Samuel Thomas a witness is the father or brother to Ann.
The short answer is not necessarily Christine :( it all depends on the vicar,if he actually asked " what's your dad's name,what job does he do and is he still alive"
Or only part of that :-\
I think the 1861 census is certainly a good one,whilst I can't see it exactly saying Brenchley,the last few letters are definitely 'ley'.......so it's probably a pretty good bet that you've hit the jackpot here too ;D
And yes I do think that Hilda Hurly should be Murly.
Now to see if I can find out who Emma L Thomas was....unless Liz beats me to it!
Carol
-
no - I wont! I'm off for a weekend away later today, (well, Thurs to Sat) so I just popped on here to get a quick fix before I go, but I am being very restrained and NOT getting stuck into long involved look ups! (she says).
It does look as if this is all beginnig to come together a bit now.
Getting certificates is so often the gateway to sorting probelms in genealogy. I know it is pricey (but what hobby is not?) but often the answers, or more often, carefully disguised clues in the form of addresses or witnesses, are there for the finding.
Off to finish packing now!!! Hope this one is all sorted when I get back on Sat!
-
Well Carol and Liz wait to you read this ...........
Don't know now I didn't find this before
From familysearchorg and has source information C013353
James Henry Clayton (Thomas)
christening - 25 June 1854 Mortlake Surrey England
mother - Catherine Elizabeth Thomas
But where is he on the census???
Party time in New Zealand - Christine M Clayton
-
Oh Christine that's fabulous !!!
Doesn't sound like dad is mentioned does it?
Maybe we can find his birth cert now then.
Regards
Carol
-
Now to see if I can find out who Emma L Thomas was....unless Liz beats me to it!
I'm back!! And you've not found Emma yet ???!!!
Here is a possible from the IGI:
Christening 3 nov 1816
St MAry's Lambeth
Emma Louisa Thomas
parents Samuel and Sarah
so - possible older unmarried sister for Katherine and Clarissa?
but very risky - Thomas is such a common name.
Great news finding James Clayton/Thomas's christening on IGI.
Mortlake doesnt fit in so well with the other places we have found - but they seem to travel around.
but I still cant locate his birth registration.
I would pop a specific request on the Surrey board to see if anyone has access to Mortlake PR's - to see if actual entry has any more detial - sometimes you find a nice vicar will record d-o-b esp if the child is older than a baby.
-
Well Christine,I have searched backwards and forwards and up and down,but still cannot find the birth reg of James......nor him on any census ???
Maybe as a single mum she didn't feel comfortable registering him?
Anyway now that you have found that Baptism you could email the London Metropolitan Archives to see how much they'd charge for a copy of the record.
ask.lma AT cityoflondon.gov.uk (replace AT with @)
As you know the exact date and church they usually do it for a 15 minute charge,they'll tell you the price.
Alternately if you are anywhere near a MormonLDS centre you could get the film of Mortlake Parish Church(Surrey) sent there for you to view.
Now you have a jolly good idea of who his mum was and where she came from.....all you need now is his dad 8)
All the best
Carol
PS I've just thought,seeing as he said he was born in Harrow,perhaps he was brought up there by someone other than his real mum?
-
I was only at the LMA last week!
But I have just checked their website, and it looks like their records for St MAry's Mortlake dont go as late as 1854.
-
Hello Mate,welcome back ;D
I wish I could work out how to use the LMA's website to it's fullest ::)
I wonder where the baptisms are then?
Could they still be at the church,surely not?
I wondered if they had bastardy bonds which might mention dad's full name.
All Kate's siblings seem to have been baptised at Lothbury,maybe Emma L is a sister in law,but as you say Thomas is so common a surname, she could be anybody!
Carol
-
Hi Carol and Liz,
Thanks heaps for your help, ideas and time. I will keep you up to date.
I have also been trying to trace Katherine Elizabeth Thomas's, brothers and sisters hoping to find descendants, which I will place on the Surrey board.
Just out of interest the GE Murly - nephew on her death certificate is
Gilbert E Murly born approx 1849 Moldavian Galatz - quite a long away from home.
Once again thanks heaps - Christine M Clayton
PS Dad would have been happy to know that we had found a christening record
in the name of James Henry Clayton. Just makes you feel that yes, you do exist.
-
Hi
Just an update - no fathers name mentioned.
Page 18 of Baptisms solemnized in the Prish of Mortlake
in the Country of Surrey in the year 1854
When Baptised - #142 1854 June 25th
Child's Christian Name - James Henry Clayton
Parent's Name - Catherine Elizabeth Thomas
Abode - London
In margin looks like - b. Sep 26th 1851 - which could be date of birth
From this it looks like his full name is James Henry Clayton Thomas, arriving in New Zealand he has dropped the Thomas and is James Henry Clayton.
Interesting to note that James and his wife Emma bring up their daughters son (my grandfather) as their own child, this information was all known to family members. His name being Phillip Hastie Thomas Clayton. Another one of my brick walls. Just an idea - Hastie (father) Thomas (grandfather) Clayton (greatgrandfather)
Any ideas where to go from here would be very much appreciated.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Hi
Just had to tell someone,
Have found my James Henry Clayton on a passenger list. ;D
He is on the "La Hogue" aged 16 as a crew member O/S
from London arriving New South Wales Australia on the 7 Nov 1867
his origin location Harrow
So from his 1854 baptism to leaving for Australia 1867
he hopefully is on a 1861 census somewhere.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
Christine,
That's brilliant news- so we're back where we started- looking for him in Harrow. ;D
Hopefully Liz will find him tomorrow.
My mum has just been taken into hospital with suspected heart attack,so I won't be here for a while :'(
Carol
-
Carol
My mum has just been taken into hospital with suspected heart attack,so I won't be here for a while
Give her my best wishes for a speedy recovery and take care of yourself.
Sandy
-
Hi Carol,
Thank you and all the best,
now going and look after your Mum ........ you only have one.
Thanks heaps Christine
-
So sorry to hear about your Mum, Carol.
Have just spent ages again looking for James Henry on 1861 census.
We had his mum, using surname Thomas, with her sister now Brenchley, didnt we, with no sign of young JAmes.
The only possible contender I have come up with is as follows - not a very good try I know, as both age and place of birth are both out!:
York Place, St Martins in the Fields Westminster
Woolf Israel cigar dealer bn St Pancras
Rachel " 46 bn Prussia
Morris son 23 cigar maker bn Algate
James Thomas adopted son 8 bn Aldgate
Mary ann Herbert lodger.
This is a real mystery.
-
Hi Liz
Thank you for your help, I know what you mean with "spent ages again looking" hope you don't mind.
Will look into this Woolf family, on other census.
Once again thanks heaps Christine
-
It is set out as if it is the Israel family
the " are clearly under the Israel bit, as if the man is called Woolf Israel, his wife Rachel Israel, and child Morris Israel.
But it could be that it is MEANT to say Israel Woolf, Rachel Woolf and Morris Woolf!!!
-
Hi Liz,
Haven't been able to totally rule out this James Thomas has being my James Henry Clayton Thomas.
In the 1851 census Wooff Israel an orange merchant born 1809 Aldgate is widowed, with him are
children Michael aged 19 a cigar maker and Moses aged 13 a scholar.
Wooff is living/boarding with a brothel keeper from Germany. His new wife Rachel in the 1861 census is also from Germany, (are not even going to think how or where he met her). Can not find a marriage between Wooff and Rachel. It is possible that James Thomas could be her son and adopted by Wooff.
Thanks heaps Christine.