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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Clazy2000 on Sunday 03 February 08 23:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for any info on above. I have an ancestor Nehemiah Gray who died whilst in St.John's Invalid Convict Establishment, Lewes(death cert. dated 5th September1859). There was an inquest held 2nd Sept.1859 by Francis Harding Gill, coroner for Sussex.
All I have been able to find is that in 1860 it apparently moved to a new prison at Woking and prior to that convicted felons were sent to Lewes when they were considered unfit for hard labour and returned usually(but not in this case!) to Dartmoor when fit and healthy enough to resume hard labour again!
I obtained above info.from a report in the Times on the annual report of the Directors of Convict prisons 1860 but have been unable to find any other references to the establishment itself.It would be interesting to find where he was buried and if there are any other records.
Can anyone throw any light on any of this?
With thanks
Clazy2000
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Hi Clazy2000
Well, this is a new one on me - I thought I was pretty well genned up on Lewes.
Have looked through my database of Lewes burials (St John Sub Castro, All Saints, South Malling, Southover, etc) without success I am afraid - so if anywhere he must be in Lewes Cemetery, opened early 1850's
I have also checked the A2A website for the East Sussex Record Office because, according to their yearly report, they have 85% of their records on line - but again to no avail.
Not very helpful am I, but I bet there are other sussex researchers who can give you a bit more information
Chris in 1066
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Hi Chris
Thanks for the reply.
I have tried a2a and all the obvious on-line stuff. It's one of those queries where you know the 'truth is out there somewhere'. It is just finding it. I think perhaps a visit to Kew in the Spring might be necessary!
I have also looked for where the coroners report might be held. I think ESRO might have that.
Thanks again
Gill (Clazy 2000)
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Like others, I had never heard of the Lewes Invalid Prison so I Googled it.
I found there were several entries including the following that referred to a Parliamentry paper from 1856.
HOME OFFICE Reports of the Directors of Convict Prisons. . . including the Invalid Prison at Lewes, for Year 1858.
London, HMSO. 1859. 400pp. Folio.
Paper wrappers. British Parliamentary Paper.
Comprehensive report on the discipline and management of the prison establishments covering sanitary conditions, diet, employment of the convicts, their moral and religious condition and extracts of letters from discharged prisoners.
If you can find a copy of this paper from elsewhere rather than purchasing it, it may give you some of the answers you are seeking
Roy G
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Thanks Roy
The Times article I found was a report on a later Report of the Directors of Convict prisons. I think that legally they had to produce these reports as in 1850 the convict service was set up as a replacement for transportation and the use of prison hulks. There were about 5 different convict prisons which were different from the local gaols and prisoners appear to have been moved between them. I don't think St.Johns Invalid convict establishment Lewes was used for long as it was transferred to Woking by 1860, so at the very longest 9 years but probably only for 5 or 6 years which is probably why there isn't too much about it.
My convict ancestor came from Wiltshire and had several convictions he stole 12 chickens, a sheep, and some wheat and seems to have been treated as public enemy number one! Still some lost their lives for similar crimes.
Thanks for your help I will see if I can access a copy.
Gill
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Don't know where in the world you are, but I recall Sussex University Library has a complete set (over 100 volumes) of British Parliamentry Papers (they were republished in Ireland about 1970). Hopefully some other university libraries also have sets to facilitate research.
Roy G
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Thanks again Roy.
This may not be an impossibility as although I live in Hertfordshire my daughter is a student at Sussex Uni at Falmer and although studying English I am sure when time allows, that she could check for me.
I was born in Hastings so much of my research has been in Sussex. The convict who went to Lewes was actually on my Dad's side and came from Wiltshire. I am always amazed in Family History how sometimes fate plays a hand in finding out what happened and threads come together in the most improbable ways and places!
I know she has a couple of important pieces of work to complete in the next two weeks but after that I will get her to search for the Parliamentary papers.
Many thanks for all your help. It is a good lead.
Gill
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was it actually a prison?
burials of prisoners were different to those of .... err .... not prisoners.
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Hi,
His occupation given on his death cert. was 'convicted felon' so I am guessing he was considered a prisoner and thus would have been buried as one.
Did it mean that even in death he would not have been entitled to the same burial as non-prisoners?
Gill Clazy2000
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re Parish Regsiters:~
some registers recorded the names of people who were, hurled, interred or tumbled into the ground. these areliekly to relate to the burials of dissenters without the benfit of Anglican funeral rites, or of an unbaptised or excommunicated parishoner or of a sucide. Burials of executed convicted felons abound in the registers of parishes where the county Assize Sessions sat.
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Hello Gill,
Take a look at this link (scroll down to the section on the Inkerman Estate):
http://www.housesinwoking.com/pages/stjohns.htm
It gives a bit of background if nothing else.
I'm wondering if there may have been a hospital wing or similar at the main Lewes Prison.
The old House of Correction in North Street had become the Naval Prison by then (1853/54 I think).
Regards,
Phil
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Hi Phil
I went on this website but missed the part relating to the Invalid prison.It is very useful.
It is interesting that they took prisoners suffering from mental illness as Nehemiah who was my 3xGreat Grandfather had been in prison for a great part of his life and there are numerous references that years of solitary confinement and the silent system for first class prisoners caused mental illness. No proof but a possibility.
300 prisoners were transferred from Lewes and although it would not have included Nehemiah it gives an indication that Lewes was more than cramped and makes you wonder about the conditions for those convicts. I need to check that report on conditions.
I knew it had become a naval prison but I didn't know the date.
Thank you for all your help and although there are no conclusions there are alot more possibilities.
Gill
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Thanks to all for your help in this.
Have found a little bit more information on when the invalid prisoners were sent to Lewes.
It seems that they were housed on a prison hulk at Woolwich called the Unite(that e should have an accent, it was an old French vessel).Various inquiry and reports had found this hulk to be virmin infested and the conditions of the patients appalling, viz. the patients were filthy dirty and had no clean clothes for 5 weeks.They had no combs or towels for washing. There were no records of washing of blankets etc and bed linen was never changed. Thus its days were already numbered, when 'Defence'another hulk along side it caught fire. The Unite couldn't cope with the influx of semi-invalid prisoners from the Defence and they were all moved to the Invalid Prison at Lewes.
This is taken from W.Branch Johnson's The English Prison Hulks Phillimore 1970 and he quotes a report from the Times that the fire happened on 14th July 1857.So unless Lewes was already taking sick prisoners, it looks likely that it was only in existence for 3 years, 1857-1860 when it moved to Knapp Hill,Woking to a purpose built prison.
Another source is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blaker/reminiscences/commence.html
This has a brief description by the Assistant Surgeon of the Invalid Convict Prison in Lewes, of the number of convicts and their types of ailment. Plus it confirms that it was indeed housed in the Old Jail,now the Naval Prison at Lewes.
Thanks once again
Clazy2000 Gill
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Hello again Gill,
That was a very interesting article.
The Naval Prison has come up before on Rootschat, I'm sure and has an air of mystery about it. I can just about remember it before it was demolished, going for walks past it when visiting my grandparents. My father was born in nearby Sun Street and apparently went to Scouts there.
I had always assumed it was a Naval Prison right from the opening of the new Lewes Prison, but that does not appear to be the case. It is well documented that it housed about 350 Finnish prisoners of war from 1854 to 1856. Now you have discovered it's use from 1857 to 1860. Tonight I found a link I had not seen before that implies that the Navy did not take it over until 1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/02o9/
I've also had a look at the NA catalogue and found these references:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/02oa/
Phil
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Hi Phil
Those National Archives references are very useful indeed. A visit to Kew is a must. I would have ordered them but not too sure how many pages they will turn out to be - 300 prisoners can take up an awful lot of paper!!Thank you so much for those. I will be surprised if my 3xGt.Grandfather isn't there somewhere depending on when he was designated as an 'invalid convict'.
The other ref.does indeed imply that it was not used as a Naval prison until 1862. However it was definitely purchased for £5000 by the Lords Commission of the Admiralty on the 3rd April 1854,the conveyance being completed 21 June 1854. A2A ESRO
Perhaps although owned by the Admiralty their needs were not as urgent as other Govt.departments ie. for the Russian and Finnish occupants and then the Invalids from the hulks.
I think that the convict prisons were at breaking point with the end of transportation as an option and the final end to the hulks.By 1853 when penal servitude was introduced to replace transportation,convict prisons had to send some of their prisoners to local gaols many of which were underused-Higgs,M Prison Life in Victorian England
It therefore seems logical that although the Admiralty owned the prison that it may have been 'commandeered ' or rented temporarily by other departments to ease their problems.
My initial enquiry concerning my 'black sheep' has certainly opened a lot of questions and answers about the old gaol! Thanks for your help.
Will add a postscript when I find him!
Gill
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i wonder if
Lewes East Sussex RO has any details for the Invalid Prison?
archives@eastsussex.gov.uk
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Toni
That was one of the first places that we checked and the answer was NO
But, if you put in 'House of Correction' or 'Naval Prison' then the answer was YES through the A2A catalogue.
Gill has been looking at and digesting this information - but isnt it strange that 'Invalid Prison' on its own brought up virtually nothing
Chris in 1066
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Hi Toni/Chris
All of the records held by ESRO under the heading House of Correction relate to it from its initial coception and building 1792 ,the extensions,alterations,plans etc. to its sale and conveyance to the Commission for the Admiralty in 1854.
It seems after this we have to look to the National Archives which is logical as none of the local agencies were responsible for it after 1854. The convict gaols were funded by and run by central government and thus details of its running costs etc were made to central govt. in the form of quarterly returns etc. and it was included in reports along side the other national prisons such as Dartmoor,Millbank,Wakefield,Leicester etc. All of which are held by the National Archives.
TNA references found by Phil are qtrly returns of prisoners from Lewes Convict Prison. I have asked for an estimate for photocopying references to Nehemiah Gray but for people interested in what they say about the establishment they may be worth consulting. I was trying to keep the cost down as they are all over 150 pages in length.Well worth a look when visiting Kew though.
Gill
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Hi Gill !
I don't know if this is any good but I think you said your relative had been at Woking ( I've lost the plot !! ::) ) .... didn't you ?? You might try the Black Sheep site also ... you never know !
Annie :)
This is a free database online for the Woking Invalid Prison in Surrey .... its an index of prisoners there for the year 1881.
Surnames A-K
http://blacksheepancestors.com/uk/woking.shtml
Surnames L-Z
http://blacksheepancestors.com/uk/woking2.shtml
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Hi Annie
No, sorry mine was dead by then he never actually got to Woking. He died at Lewes 1859 before the rest of his co-prisoners were sent to Woking but it is handy to know just in case I find anymore black sheep!
I did try Black Sheep some time ago to check their petitions cd (as he was sentenced to death there must have been a successful petition) but there was nothing.
Thanks all the same
Gill
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Hi there
Just across the road from the the House of Corretion/Naval Prison/Goal is St Johns Sub Castro Church and churchyard, and it is here where many of the buildings inmates were finally buried.
As I spent about 3 years transcribing the burial registers, surveying the graveyard and then transcribing all of the 800 stones (all except 11 that were unreadable) it is interesting to note that it does show the changing face of the buildings inhabitants:-
In July 1802 we get the first reference to the 'House of Correction'
then in the following 45 years we get lots of references to men, women and children of all ages from the 'House of Correction' including 'Turnkeys' and 'The Master' till November 1849 when we have the last reference to 'House of Correction'
January 1852 sees the first reference to 'The Goal' or 'Lewes Goal' and then in December 1854 we have the first entry 'A Russian POW, The War Prison' - these entries go up to June 1856 after which the deceased are just labelled 'Convict Prison' or 'RN Prison' or even 'Naval Prison' right up to 1881
As mentioned previously a memorial was erected by the Emperor of Russia to 21 of those prisoners who died whilst in the Naval Prisoners - picture below.
Absolutely no reference to Invalid Prison - surely, someone must have died during that period? - yes they did; there are some 20 burials between 1857 and 1860 during the time when we belive it was an Invalid Prison - but they are all just labelled 'Convict Prison'
Chris in 1066
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Hi Chris
Yes, my Nehemiah Gray on 1st Sept.1859 but if he is not listed under Convict Prison I don't know where he is buried.I will attach death cert.
It seems as though they used the term 'Invalid Convict Prison 'only to distinguish between it and the normal 'convict prison' where differentiation was needed.
Although the fact that it was called 'Invalid Convict Establishment St.John's' on his death cert. would indicate that it was likely he was buried in St.John's Sub Castro'.
I wonder whether the National Archives records give details of deaths although I suspect they may just give numbers for statistical purposes.
That is really interesting though that the entries of the dead point so accurately to the uses of the prison.
Gill
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Hi Gill
Yes, I have got to agree with you - the Death certificate would suggest that he should be buried in St John Sub Castro - but he aint there. There are NO convict burials in that yard during 1959??
The only person with the Surname Gray in that yard was a female named Jemima from the 'Cliffe' back in February 1804 - she has a memorial No 599
I notice that there was a coroners inquest - do you have a copy of the papers for the inquest? They should be on file at the ESRO.
Chris in 1066
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Toni
That was one of the first places that we checked and the answer was NO
But, if you put in 'House of Correction' or 'Naval Prison' then the answer was YES through the A2A catalogue.
i thought it would have been ;D
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Hi Gill
Just a note to say thanks for your all your hard work looking at Nehemiah Gray he was also my 3x Great Grandfather on my Fathers side
Jenny