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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: megalina on Saturday 08 March 08 03:03 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I am researching my husband's family of Gethin's from Caersws and surrounds. I only know about Matthew Henry Gethin (1909-1975) and his parents John Tudor Gethin (b.? d.1949) from Llanwnog and Margaret Elizabeth Ingram (b.? d. 1949). Does anyone have more information? Many thanks, Meg
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Hi Meg
Have you found John Tudor GETHIN or Margaret Elizabeth INGRAM on any Census prior to their marriage? I would be happy to look for you if not.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Marriage
March 1898 Newtown 11b/195
John Gethin to Elizabeth Ingram or Elizabeth Evans
Will have a look on the 1901 now for their ages etc.
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Birth
March 1877 Newtown 11b/194
John Tudor Gethin
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1901 census RG13/5194/65/5
John T Gethin 24 b Llawnog ag lab
Margaret E 23 do
Richard Edward 3 do
John William 6 mths do
Next door is an Ingram family, maybe the family of Margaret E. The head is a farmer, will transcribe and post if you cannot see the page.
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1881 census RG11/5483/81/2
Cefncoch, Weeg, Montgomeryshire
Richard Gethin 50 farmer of 60 acres b llanwnog
Margaret 42 b Trefeglws
Mary 21
Richard 16
Mary 9
Sarah 7
William 5
John 4
Evan 2
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1881 census RG11/5483/64/6
Newhouse, Surnant, Llanwnog
Edward Ingram 33 farmer of 35 acres b Penstrwd (?) Montgom.
Mary 27
Mary 6
Annie 5
Margaret Elizabeth 3
Edward Cleaton 1
all b Llanwog
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Birth
Dec 1877 Newtown 11b/197
Margaret Elizabeth Ingram
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Thankyou everyone for your help! I have added another 2 levels to my tree with your valuable help :-) Does anyone have any further information about the Ingram family (Edward and Mary) ie. what was Mary's maiden name? Also does anyone have further info on Margaret Evans? Kind regards, Meg
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Marriage
June 1872 1874 Newtown 11b/249
Edward Ingram to Mary Evans
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Birth
Edward Ingram Dec 1847 Newtown 27/103
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This looks like Edward Ingram 1851 - only one born Montgomery, need father's name I should think to confirm. Welsh names a bit difficult to make out.
1851 HO107/2497/16/3
Llediarde (name of farm ?) Erskirgilog Montgomry
Edward Ingram 39 b Llandinians farmer of 60 acres empl two men
Elizabeth 31 b Llandinians
Elizabeth 5
Edward 3
David 10 mths
Margaret Williams 20 serv
Richard Francis 14 farm lab
all others b Houghtrey/Moughtrey
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Who is Margaret Evans? :)
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Just looking where places are in relation,
Edward Ingram b 1847 says born Moughtrey in 1851 and in 1881 when he is married says born Penstrowed/Penystrywaid. These are about two miles apart.
and see this link (scroll down on it a little)
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/places?MGY,SO070880,5,Mochdre
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Going back further
Marriage of Edward Ingram (b 1811/1912) to Elizabeth Clayton (1819/1820)
March 1845 Newton & c 27/177
Newton & c is probably Newtown.
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quick male tree
Edward Ingram b 1812 m Elizabeth Clayton
son Edward b 1847
Edward b 1847 m Mary Evans 1872
son Edward Cleaton (or Clayton) b 1879/80
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1841 HO107/1439/3/22/7
Eskirgirlog, Moughtrey, name of farm possibly College
David Clayton 64 farmer (b 1777)
Ann 59 (b 1782)
Elizabeth 21 (b 1820)
Jane 17 (b 1824)
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1851 HO107/2497/19/8
David Clayton 72 cottage farmer of 5 acres b Landinam, Montgomershire
Ann 69 b St Harmon, Radnorshire
cant find Elizabeth just yet.
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aahaa ;) found Margaret Evans
Marriage
June 1868 Newtown 11b/336
Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans
However there seem to be children born earlier than this.
Need the name of Margaret's father to go back I think.j
Richard 1871 RG10/5612/37/2
Richard 1861 RG9/4248/4/2
Richard 1851 HO107/2496/447/3
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Margaret Evans 1861 (very interesting) The only one coming up as born Trefeglwys.
1861 RG9/4250/67/3 Newtown, Astley's Yard
Thomas Owen 61 woollen weaver b Newtown
Ann Owen 57 charwoman b Newtown
Ann Ingram step daughter, 11 splice in woolen factory b Llangeurig
David Ingram stepson 9 do
Jane Ingram 5 stepdau do
Sarah Own 1 dau do
Mary Evans 60 visitor charwoman b Trefeglwys
Margaret Evans 25 visitor dairymaid b do
Mary Evans dau 1 b do
Catherins Evans dau 1mth b do
Mary aged one is in the 1881 census with Richard and Margaret Gethin.
and in 1898 John Gethin their son married an Elizabeth Ingram.
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1841 HO107/1440/18/18/25
David Evans 35 woolen weaver
Margaret 40
Ann 15
James 10
Margaret 8
Elizabeth 6
Need marriage cert to id father's name for certain.
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Thankyou silvery :D
The Margaret Evans in 1861 looks like the right one but the one in 1841 doesn't quite add up (especially if you surmise that in 1861 25yr old margaret was visiting with perhaps her 60 year old mother Mary??).
Are you able to please follow Mary Evans who married Edward Ingram (1847-?) in 1872 or David (1777-?) and Ann Clayton (1782-?) any further back?
kind regards,
Meg
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As it's a while ago, the details escape me. I will have to go through it again to recap, but it will be later on today.
I recall that I did have some more notes, but wasn't sure if you wanted me to carry on putting them down.
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June 1868 Newtown 11b/336
Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans
You need this marriage cert to trace the fathers' names.
1841 census was just a possible for Margaret Evans.
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Marriage
June 1872 1874 Newtown 11b/249
Edward Ingram to Mary Evans
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You need this one to trace the father of Mary Evans.
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This is a possible for Mary Evans, because they are living in the civil parish/township of Weeg, which is where Richard and Margaret (Evans) Gethin are in the 1871 and 1881 censuses.
1861 Rg0/4248/4/1 Weeg
Daniel Evans 50 ag lab
Margaret 44 (wrong mother name again)
David 15 ag lab
Mary 7
Thomas 2
all b Llawnog.
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1841 Ho107/1439/3/22/7
Civil parish: Moughtrey/ Reg dist: Newtown/ sub Reg dist: Kerry
David Clayton 64 farmer
Ann 59
Elizabeth 21
Jane 17
all b in county. IGI batch no CO90591 girls christened Llandinam, Montgomeryshire.
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IGI Batch no CO90591 christenings
Edward Ingram 16 Sept 1816 Lladinam
Mary Ingram 7 June 1814
parents: John Ingram and Shushanna
**********************************************************
IGI Batch no CO82721 christenings
Richard Gethin 28 Aug 1830 Llawnog
Mary Gethin 05 Nov 1831 Llawnog
Margaret Gethin 29 Dec 1832 Llawnog
Parents: Richard Gethin and Mary
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Hi Silvery
Sorry to butt in !
I have a distant interest in this family, which was why I followed your messages to Meg.
I noticed that you have the marriage of Edward Ingram to Mary Evans as
Qtr ended Jun 1872 Newtown 11b/249. I have the date as Qtr ended Mar 1874 and have checked this now on FreeBmd. Also North Wales BMD shows the marriage as 1874 at St. Gwynnog church, Llanwnog.
If Meg needs any further details, I have the Richard Gethin/Mary Tudor family with 12 children in all from Richard (1830) through to Sarah Ann (1852). Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans had 8 children from Mary (1860) to Evan (1879), with John Tudor Gethin (1877) being the second youngest.
I don't, however, have anything on Margaret Evans' parents or siblings or Mary Evans, who married Edward Ingram.
I can go back on Mary Tudor to her parents & grandparents, if you would like this detail.
Hope you didn't mind my intervention.
Stan
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Od dear me :-[ Stan you are quite correct, I cut and pasted from my original post which had a typo - check everything, as the saying goes. I stand corrected and would have made an elementary error. I will go back and change it.
Just out of interest, I traced Richard Gethin from 1851 with the Tudor grandfather to 1881 when Eva was 2. He seems to marry in 1868 Newtown to Margaret Evans, which was after the birth of Mary c1860 and Richard 1864 or 1865. So you have gone back further with them.
I'm sure Meg will be highly pleased to make contact with you.
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Hi
I think I may have the Evans family !
In 1851, living at Oerle, Trefeglwys
William Evans (46?) Head, Farmer, b. Trefeglwys
Margaret Evans (38), Wife, b. Llanwnog
Thomas (15), John (14), Margaret (12), Elizabeth (10), Jane (9), Mary (4) & Sarah (1) - all children born in Trefeglwys
In 1861, still at Oerle, Trefeglwys
Margaret Evans (48), Head, Widow, Farmer, b. Trefeglwys ?
Thomas Evans (25), Elizabeth (20), Jane (19), Sarah (11) AND
**Mary Gethin Evans (1), granddaughter, b. Trefeglwys.
Birth: Mary Gethin Evans Qtr Sep 1859 Newtown 11b/202
So, it appears that Richard Gethin (or some other Gethin?) and Margaret Evans had started their family some time before they got married in 1868.
And in 1871, still at Oerle
Margaret Evans (58) Widow, b. Llanwnog
Sarah Hamer (21) Daughter
David Hamer (23) Son-in-law, Farm Servant, b. Trefeglwys
**Mary G. Evans (11) Granddaughter
William H. Evans (1) Grandson - Not sure who are parents of this boy
**Richard Gethin (6) Grandson
As previously mentioned, the birth/marriage certs. need to be ordered to clarify and verify.
Stan
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Gday Stan & Silvery,
Thanks so much for your interest in helping me out :)
I actually have the Gethin & Tudor info as far back as Richard Gethin (1803-1880) and John Tudor (1725-?) courtesy of a lady called Trish Brooks. We discovered that my husband's relatives still occupy the original Gethin farmhouse! I have that Hannah Reynolds married John Tudor and a Bridget (no surname) married the elder John Tudor. MY husband's family are from the John Tudor Gethin line.
you've prompted me to check out the freebmd website. I have only been using the freereg site and was unable to source a lot of welsh info!
Many thanks again,
Meg, Western Australia
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Hi Stan,
have just had a think about the Evans info you found for me.
the young Richard gethin (grandson in the 1871 census) sounds like the right one from the Gethin info I have (born 1865)....but with the Mary Gethin Evans- were female children given both parents surnames? If Mary was a daughter of Richard Gethin and Margaret Evans, would not her surname be Gethin rather than Evans? She may be a different grandchild although I do have a Mary Gethin born in 1860 which is the right age for the 1861 census.
kind regards
meg
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Hi Meg
It appears that Mary Gethin Evans & Richard Gethin were both illegitimate, since Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans marriage did not take place until 1868.
However, Mary's father may just have been another Gethin or of some other name - though it looks highly likely that they are the parents.
I will obtain a birth cert. for Mary Gethin Evans - I am away for a week and I will do this on my return.
I do have the same information as you regarding the Tudors and may well have got this from the same source as you (Brooks).
My interest is through a brother of Richard Gethin(1830), Thomas (b.1839) whose second wife was a Mary Hutson, which is my main line of research.
A rather tenuous link, but I do tend to go off at a tangent sometimes !
Best wishes
Stan
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Hi Meg
Further to my last post, I have now received the Birth Cert. of Mary Gethin Evans. As predicted, illegitimate, with no father's name recorded.
Details: Mary Gethin Evans born 26th July 1859 at Oerle, Trefeglwys. Mother's name - Margaret Evans, who is also given as the informant. Registered 3rd Aug 1859.
So, we do not have proof that Richard Gethin was the father of Mary Gethin Evans or Richard Gethin (b. ca 1865), both seen with their widowed grandmother at Oerle in 1871 census. But it is highly likely ! Their marriage certs may be more enlightening.
Regards
Stan
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Gday Stan,
thankyou so much for helping with my Gethin enquiry.
I'm grateful that you have spent the time to confirm data for me.
it's all very interesting :-)
kind regards, Meg
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g'day meg,
We are also researching the Gethin family Caersws Wales.In our family we also have a Mathew Henry Gethin-born 1909-married Alice Winifred Neville.his parents are John Tudor Gethin & Eizabeth Margeret Ingram they also had 8 more sons & 1 daughter.One of those sons is called John William Gethin im a descent from him.I received your email & answered it.(did you receive it) Also Mathew & 6 off his brothers came to Australia & had farms a few hours from Perth W.A. Is this the same Mathew as your's........
regards Yvonne.
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Hi Yvonne,
this does indeed sound like the same Matthew Gethin.
my husband is his grandson and we are still farming the farm Matthew received for WWII service in 1947.
maybe we can chat off site- i didn't get the email you speak of...could you try sending it again?
kind regards, Meg
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g'day meg,
Yes we are the same family-we will be in touch really soon.
regards yvonne.........
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Can I butt in here too?!!!!
I have just discovered that one of my GGG Grandmothers was a Catherine Gethin born approx 1813, not sure where yet. She married a Joseph Richards from Tregynon, and I am descended from one of their daughters, Elizabeth Richards.
Stan.....If Meg needs any further details, I have the Richard Gethin/Mary Tudor family with 12 children in all from Richard (1830) through to Sarah Ann (1852). Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans had 8 children from Mary (1860) to Evan (1879), with John Tudor Gethin (1877) being the second youngest.
....Can you check and see if there is a Catherine in the family details that you have please?
Also the Joseph Richards that I mentioned above, was the son of John Richard and Martha Tudor. Do you have any record of Martha?
Many thanks, and my apologies for jumping into this thread!!!!
Jan
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I'm just bumping this thread back to the top ;D
Just wondered if anyone had any info re: my previous post ;)
Many thanks
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Hi Jan,
My apologies for missing your earlier post - I've been distracted by other matters of late !
I do not have your Catherine Gethin (b.1813) in my tree. Edward & Catherine Gethin did have a daughter Catherine, born 1799, but she died in 1810. They then went on to have Jane (b.ca. 1802) and Richard (b.ca.1803), who married Mary Tudor, all born in Tregynon. Now the probability is that there were more than 3 children, quite a small family in those days, and there may well have been another Catherine born after No.1 died in 1810. Speculative, I know, but worth a proper look in the parish records of Tregynon, if you have the opportunity.
Re: Martha Tudor. Yes, there is a Martha, b. 1768 Tregynon, a sister to John Tudor (b.1765), the father of Mary Tudor (b. 1806, Llanwnog), who married Richard Gethin. i.e. Aunty Martha ! It appears that Martha married John Richards,a widower, on 31 Dec 1801. She would have been about 33 years old. Probably, the right one.
Martha & John are 2 of the 9 children (at least!) of John Tudor & Bridget (no surname). If you need any more details, please let me know (most of the information has come from a website, therefore not guaranteed).
Regards
Stan
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Hi Stan
Thank you for the information.
I think I'm going to have to venture to the NLW again and have a good search through the parish records - another job to add to my "to do" list!!!
Jan :)
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Jan,
I gather that you have an interest in the Jerman/Jarman family. I have been researching my own Jarman family in Wales for a while and traced back to a John and Sarah Jarman/Jerman. On the records he identifies his birthplace firstly as MacHynlleth, Montgomeryshire and later as Mochra, Montgomeryshire. Sarah came from Llandinam.
Does this match any of your own research?
Please reply driectly to (*)
Kind regards,
Chris Jarman
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Chris,
As your request is slightly off this topic :) I have sent your a Private Message about the Jarmans.
Regards
Jan
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This is part of our family also but our link is Evan
Alex and Jan
1881 census RG11/5483/81/2
Cefncoch, Weeg, Montgomeryshire
Richard Gethin 50 farmer of 60 acres b llanwnog
Margaret 42 b Trefeglws
Mary 21
Richard 16
Mary 9
Sarah 7
William 5
John 4
Evan 2
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Are John and Hannah Tudor the parents of Mary - who married Richard Gethin ?
Alex and Jan
Hi Silvery
Sorry to butt in !
I have a distant interest in this family, which was why I followed your messages to Meg.
I noticed that you have the marriage of Edward Ingram to Mary Evans as
Qtr ended Jun 1872 Newtown 11b/249. I have the date as Qtr ended Mar 1874 and have checked this now on FreeBmd. Also North Wales BMD shows the marriage as 1874 at St. Gwynnog church, Llanwnog.
If Meg needs any further details, I have the Richard Gethin/Mary Tudor family with 12 children in all from Richard (1830) through to Sarah Ann (1852). Richard Gethin/Margaret Evans had 8 children from Mary (1860) to Evan (1879), with John Tudor Gethin (1877) being the second youngest.
I don't, however, have anything on Margaret Evans' parents or siblings or Mary Evans, who married Edward Ingram.
I can go back on Mary Tudor to her parents & grandparents, if you would like this detail.
Hope you didn't mind my intervention.
Stan
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been following this thread, only found it tonight, My Grand mother was Evan Evans's daughter. The line goes back to the ones discussed.making them my great, great etc fathers.
After Oerle the family i believe moved to Moelygigyedd, From there thence to New House adfa, and eventually Evan Evans finished up at Middletown.