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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: Xenoid on Saturday 15 March 08 08:33 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have traced my great grandfather Frederick Palmer (Brandsby, Yorkshire) back to George Palmer b.~1828 in Harwell.
George married Ann Dixon in 1849, Ann died in 1852. George remarried in 1858 to Caroline Castle.
Frederick's birth date is 1852 so it is possible Ann died giving birth to Frederick. I am interested if there was a child before Frederick. And also Ann's place and date of birth.
Are there any daughters in this family? I have found at least 6 sons.
Thankyou
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Hello,
we need a bit of clarification here:
1861 RG9; Piece: 738; Folio: 49; Page: 30
below Broadway, Harwell
George Palmer 34 yrs ag labourer b Harwell
Caroline 31 yrs b Hendred (?)
William 2 yrs b Harwell
George 1 yr b Harwell
Frederick Castle step son 9 yrs plough boy b Hendred
this indicates that Caroline is the mother of Frederick.
best wishes
heywood
just found Free BMD March quarter 1853
Frederick Castle Witney Vol 3a pg 577
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just in case you need this - I notice that Carolien consistently gives East Hendred as birthplace so hopefully this is her:
1841 HO107; Piece 30; Book: 6; Folio: 4; Page: 3
The Village East Hendred
William Castle 40 yrs ag lab
Hannah 40 yrs
Anne 15 yrs ag lab
Thurza 14 yrs ag lab
Caroline 9 yrs
William 6 yrs
Susan 3 yrs
all born in county
1841 and 1851 give another Caroline Castle b 1829 Ewelme - 1841 it's Oxfordshire and 1851 Berkshire.
I can't see Caroline above in 1851
However the family are there as this:
William Castle 53 yrs
Thirza C wife 53 yrs b Coombe Oxfordshire
Hannah C daur 24 yrs
Hannah Castle daur 20 yrs
Susan C 14 yrs
Charles C 5 yrs
George C 1 yr
Hannah 20 yrs has been added so I wonder if she is really Caroline - and of course mum has changed her name!
1861 Hannah (mum) is a widow and pauper b Oxfordshire living with Susan and Charles and a young grandchild William.
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Hi,
Heywood has got it right.
This is from East Hendred PRs
Caroline Castle bap Oct 2 1831 dau of William lab and Hannah
Also looked up her son
Frederick Castle bap Oct 24 1851 son of Caroline, singlewoman.
And from Harwell PRs her marriage
Feb 13 1858
George Palmer, b, full, lab, son of Anthony
Caroline Castle, b, full, servant, dau of William lab
Wits: Richard Palmer, Temperance Hatto
If you need any more info let me know.
Sue
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Hi Xenoid,
What relationship do you think your gr grandfather was to George Palmer?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
that's a good find for Xenoid to consider.
I am assuming that as Frederick was called Palmer in later censuses that perhaps George is shown as father on Frederick's marriage certificate or certainly within the family that it was accepted. He wasn't with the family in 1871 so there is only the information on 1861 which luckily (depends on your viewpoint) reveals this.
Let's hope that Xenoid comes back and lets us know their view.
have a good day - I have a busy day ahead.
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Ive searched East Hendred and Harwell for Frederick Castle marriage but no luck.
Found a burial in Harwell Aug 16 1876 for Hannah Castle though aged 82.
She is the only Castle burial there so wonder where William was buried. ??? ???
Sue
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Oh my God - what a nightmare..... :o :o
So I'm not a Palmer but a Castle!
It will take me some time to digest all this and sort it all out!
What about the 1871 census, can you tell me, is Frederick in Harwell or Brandsby (Yorkshire). He married Charity Douglass in Brandsby in 1874. The marriage certificate gives his name as Frederick Palmer, and father as George Palmer.
Hmmm.. looking back over my notes I have him calling himself Frederick Castle Palmer, I'm not sure where I got that from as it was a few years ago when I did the research. At the time I thought it was in deference to his "step mother" but obviously it is the other way around! It may have been on the death registration
Heywood, thankyou so much for the super detective work, this is all very interesting - I may have to change my name now.... ::)
Sorry folks, I had typed all this when the additional (3) replies came in! No one was aware of the Castle link, I vaguely recall my father mentioning Harwell (or Berkshire) as where the Palmers originated.
Can someone possibly find out what he was calling himself on the 1871 census, he was probably in Brandsby by then!
Thankyou all so much! I'll get back, it's 1.30 am here in NZ....
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yes he's here:
1871 RG10; Piece: 4827; Folio: 98; Page: 19
The Castle Farm (how coincidental) Sherriff Hutton Yorks
Frederick Palmer unmarried 19 yrs farm servant b Berkshire
Harwell
The farmer is Joseph Suggitt of Yorkshire
this is a link to Sherriff Hutton Castle - nothing to do with the family I know as he was there for a short time but nice ot think he was there once!
http://www.castleuk.net/castle_lists_north/100/sheriff.html
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Great work Heywood, im sure that will please Xenoid to get that sorted.
Sue
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Heres George and Carolines children from Harwell PRs
Mar 6 1859 William
Aug 5 1860 George
Mar 2 1862 Edwin
Mar 7 1865 Elizabeth
Jun 6 1869 Richard
Jun 6 1869 John Edward
Jun 2 1872 Hannah
May 3 1874 Harry
Hope this helps
Sue
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you can view the 1881 census for free- no girls there though nor in 1871.
There is a possible death for Hannah 1873 and Elizabeth 1865 - really sad that.
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Thanks again for the fantastic work, heywood and jamajo... ;D
I have a few questions.
The fact that Frederick's birth is registered in Witney, suggests Caroline moved north to, say, her ?maternal grandparents to give birth to Frederick. I assume if I order Frederick's birth certificate it will have "Father Unknown" on it.
The 1841 census results appear perfectly OK except Thurza should be Thirza (female name) - do they give the birthplaces of William and Hannah?
I am confused by the 1851 census results:
William Castle 53 yrs
Thirza C wife 53 yrs b Coombe Oxfordshire
Hannah C daur 24 yrs
Hannah Castle daur 20 yrs
Susan C 14 yrs
Charles C 5 yrs
George C 1 yr
Hannah 20 yrs has been added so I wonder if she is really Caroline - and of course mum has changed her name!
The wife Hannah and daughter Thirza and ?Caroline appear to have been switched in a transcription error, is it possible to view the original records?
At what time of the year was the 1851 census held?
Where is Coombe, Oxfordshire, I can't seem to find it?
What a pity we don't know where Caroline was in, say, 1850 - probably working as a servant girl for the local squire.... ;) ;) .. say no more!
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1851 - looking at copy of original on ancestry is as I said.
my transcription
1851 HO107; Piece: 1689; Folio: 525; Page: 35
East Hendred
William Castle 53 yrs born East Hendred
Thirza C wife 53 yrs b Coobe in Oxfordshire
Hannah C daur 24 yrs b East Hendred
**
Susan C do 14 yrs do
Charles C son 5 yrs do
George C son 1 yr do
at ** above Susan has been inserted Hannah Castle daur u 20 yrs
Coobe is written but perhaps means Combe Oxfordshire (Witney) according to
google is 24 miles away.
as I said comparing it with 1841 Anne aged 15 yrs in 1841 is perhaps Hannah
aged 24 yrs in 1851 or as you say more likely Thirza and Hannah have been switched. This means that either Ann or Thirza is missing from 1851 census but can't find a reason yet.
Caroline aged 9 in 1841 should be 20 yrs or so in 1851 and therefore is possibly the 2nd Hannah.
Thurza is definitely written in 1841 but as you say- the correct spelling is probably Thirza (as seems in 1851).
1841- Hannah is given as born in county (Berkshire).
If you do send for Frederick's birth certificate- as you say perhaps father unknown - there may be a relevant address.
Also if you sent for a younger child's birth certificate you would get Hannah's maiden name.
The 1851 census was taken the night of 31st March.
cheers
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Thanks for that heywood!
Yes, I had finally found COMBE near Witney, probably where Caroline gave birth!
Ann Castle married Thomas White - 1847 Wantage 1st.Q 6/331
That's why she isn't on the 1851 census!
Any chance Caroline Castle is listed in 1851 census results for Combe, Oxfordshire... ;D
Again, many thanks for clearing this up ... :)
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a pleasure ;D
good you have Anne out of the picture by 1851- narrows it down a bit