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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Benzol on Sunday 30 March 08 02:24 BST (UK)
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I am trying to locate the siblings and Ancestors of Lillia(s)/Lilly Douglas my great grandmother. She married my great grandfather William Walker McNaughton in the City of Perth on 23 February 1855. On the wedding certificate she states that she was born in Falkirk in 1837 and that her father's name was John Douglas a cattle dealer; her mother's name was omitted. The 1861 census for Perth lists her age as 21 (?Birth 1840 not 1837) and her name as Lilly McNaughton. I've searched the 1841 &1851 Scotland censuses but there is no Lillias Douglas born Falkirk.
Lillia had three children before she died in December 1861. Isabella Robertson McNaughton; Jane/Jean Russell McNaughton; and Alexander McNaughton who emigrated to Vancouver Island Canada in the late 1800s. I have found a Lillias Robertson born in Renfrew in 1840 (1841 census) and wondered if this lady could be my long lost great grandmother. A shot in the dark really but based on the Scottish naming system, the first female child's name being based on the maternal grandmother's name.
Does this ring any bells? Any bright ideas which might help trace Lillia or her family before 1855? Does anybody have access to OPRs for Falkirk and/or Renfrew? Please help!
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Hi Benzol, I found a Tillas Douglas born abt 1838 Stirlingshire. (Falkirk is in Stirlingshire) Could be a misprint. She is in the St. Ninians District living at Lower Castle Hill. There are a lot of people on the same page and no obvious parents or grandparents. Although there is an Isabella Robertson aged 20 at the same place.
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Hi Evelina
Thanks for finding Tillas Douglas. A very imaginative piece of research. I would never have looked for Tillas as an alternative for Lillias. I did try about ten variations but not this one. I have a good feeling about Tillas being my great grandmother. It would appear that she may have been the illegitimate daughter of Isobella Robertson. The age is about right as well.
Of course this leaves a further puzzle or two. Can you confirm that the 1841 census was a record of Lower Castle Hill & St Ninians District in the town of Stirling? I found Upper Castle Street in Sterling which implies that there was probably a Lower Castle Street as well but this road no longer exists. I think Sterling is only about 10 miles from Falkirk.
Was the address in the 1841 census for an asylum or institution of some kind? It begs the question - where was Lillias in 1851? Her marriage lines said that she was a servant. At least I think I should concentrate on the name being Lillias Douglas rather than Lillias Robertson. Trouble is I am sceptical about the quality of the computerised census databases other than 1881 and 1901 which seem to be much more accurate.
Also was she baptized and if so where? I think she must have been if she was given her father's name.
Thanks once again for this information. It has been a great help. I know now to look for T as an alternative for L in future.
Good hunting
Benzol
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Hi Benzol, I cannot trace her in 1851. What I do after trying variations is to miss out the first name altogether and if you are lucky it works - as it did with Tillas.
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It does not mention an institute and some of the people have jobs, labourers and wool workers.
Does her death certificate not give her mothers name?
Cheers Evelyn
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Hi Evelyn, to be honest I've not delved into the murky waters of Scottish BMD certificates. The only information I have on Lillias McNaughton's death comes from the Perth Burgh burial records (PE1/20/4). Lilly McNaughton was Bur. 22.12.1861 @ 1 o,clock Greyfriars, Perth for 5/- I think!. Is it possible to translate this into some kind of meaningful reference for the Scottish Registrar, wherever they may be, so that I can purchase a copy of the death certificate. The marriage information came to me via a cousin in BC Canada. It was in the form of a photocopy of a page from a Registrar's record not a certificate. I'd like to purchase a copy of the marriage certificate as well.
good hunting
Benzol
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Hello Benzol
At www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (also referred to as SP), £6 (six pounds) will buy you 30 credits which in turn will allow you to download 5 BMD extracts. There is no need to buy certificates as they would be / £10 each, and are only worth getting for legal reasons. So, for the £6 you'd be able to download a copy of both her marriage and death entry and also the birth entries of her 3 children, for less than 1 certificate.
The extracts have the same info on them as certs, and Scottish ones have more info than English ones - described on this website and on the SP website.
Regards, Steve :O)
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Hi Steve, thanks for this useful information. I'll have a go and see what happens.
Good hunting
Benzol
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Hi Evelyn
I would like to say a big thank you for your efforts on my behalf and the advice given about the record of Lillias death having the mother's name. I also took Steve's advice and joined the "Scotlandspeople" site.
First I checked the information you gave me from the Ancestry 1841 census. The Scotlandspeople database gives the name Lillas age 3 not Tillas as shown on Ancestry. (This just reinforces my prejudices about the quality of the computerised databases). Second I found the Death record 1861 which had Lilly as 22 years of age mother's name Robertson. Third I searched for various versions of Lillias Douglas in the 1851 census, no joy. Finally I found a Lillias Robertson living in Dunfermline Fife living with her father and mother James and Isabella.
Unfortunately, and I think that I have the same problem that you had when using Scotlandspeople, I could not download any images. I tried the test as recommended using the Java script and it worked. When I tried to download images it didn't. I only tried once and that was enough for me. Did you ever solve the problem of the missing images. If so could you share your secret with me. Also, and I feel very cheeky here, would you search the Ancestry 1851 Dunfermline census for Lillias Robertson age 13 born 1838. If you find her perhaps you would furnish me with details of the family, surnames, places of birth ages and the like.
The scotlandspeople thing is very irritating but until I have a solution I'm unable to proceed with my family research.
All the best
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Thanks for your PM Benzol, glad you sorted out the problem. I still cannot view the 2 images I had trouble with but I have no problems with any others, so just a glitch for me.
As to the Tillas or Lillias, ancestry do have a lot ot transcription errors. I found a lot on my own so if its the same for everyone that's prtetty bad. I still would not be without the service though so it would cost too much via Scotlandspeople they are great if you know who and where but not for a wide search.
Evelina
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Morning Evelyn. Think you've passed your Scottish weather to us in London. Six inches of snow this morning.
I'm a newcomer to Rootschat it's a great site, everybody seems very friendly and helpful. Also very active and provides lots of useful information. I'm still learning how to get the best out of the site.
I spent £6 on Scotlandspeople and found it a very worthwhile investment. What I like is being able to see and printed images of records for a £1. My last English certificate cost £7. I do use Ancestry but not as a paid up member. Because I'm a member of the Society of Genealogists in London I'm able to use it from their office but I don't visit too often. Maybe I'll join Ancestry just to find my Scottish folks.
Having obtained details of Lillias' death I've established that John Douglas her father was deceased by 1861 also her mother was an Isabella Douglas nee Robertson who still seems to be living at this stage. Must say it surprised me that her mother was a Douglas given what your Stirling information showed. I'm still unable to pin the family down. John has twice been described as a "cattle dealer" does this mean he was an itinerant drover or cattle rustler in Scottish speak? I can't believe he was rich and cattle dealer strikes me as rich! If he was on the road during the nights of the censuses it could explain the no shows, for him at least.
Cheers benzol