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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Berlin-Bob on Wednesday 12 January 05 14:00 GMT (UK)
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Ag Labs. Salt of the Earth!
Found in Liverpool Family Historian June 02
Food For Thought- He must have been an Ag Lab
"Ask yourselves whether you know the gestation period for a sheep or a cow, and you can't read or write to make a note of it. The ag lab knew when the animal would calve by observing the position of the stars and work it out from that, or from the particular religious festivals being celebrated in church at the appropriate times. Reading and writing is one thing, but it wasn't necessary, numeracy however or a limited knowledge of it was essential so as to count his or his masters livestock and his own money and to tell the time. It was no good thinking that 7 o'clock came immediately after three bells had just struck on the church clock!
There was no electricity, the lanes were bad and there was no health service. The Ag lab knew how to make his own rush lights to light his home, the shortest and driest route between 2 places and which herbs to pick as remedies for his families ailments. He knew his neighbours far better than we know ours. We isolate ourselves in our cars and in front of our television sets. He relied on neighbours with different skills from his, to help him out when the need arose. He was thrifty where we borrow on bits of plastic he and his family had to make ends meet regardless or with great shame go on the parish.
Yes he could even forecast his local weatherby watching the reactions of wildlife and plants to changing conditions. He was far better at it than any of us from our centrally heated homes and offices. He knew how to thatch and how to get straight straw for thatching whereas we send for experts to fix a cracked slate.
He was tough. He could walk for days behind a plough, pulled by a team of horses, and still walkmiles to church each sunday. A 20 mile walk laden with produce or purchases to and from market each week was also the norm for some. No fancily equipped gymnasium for him, yet he was fitter than today's health freaks who maybe should take a lesson or two from his ancestors.
Can you use a sickle or scythe from dawn to dusk, in all weathers? Can you snare a rabbit for dinner or cut beanpoles from a hedge in a manner that will promote further growth? Can you mix your own whitewash, or train a dog to hunt or round up sheep for you? Come to that can you milk a cow or slaughter and butcher a sheep or pig?
So-called ag labs were no fools. they survived and very few of us would be here to read this if they hadn't !
Leave your car at home and walk to work tomorrow, even if it is five miles, your ancestor did!"
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An aglab was travelling by train and someone in the carriage said they wondered how many sheep there were in the field they were passing. after a minute or so he said "849". Astonished, his companion asked how he did that and he replied "I counted the legs and divided by four". ;D
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Well Bob that certainly gives food for thought. When we talk with people about our ancestors we often glibly say "Oh they were just ag labs" but I don't think that we really consider what a tough life it was and the skills that were involved.
I live in a cottage that once was home to ag labs and I have researched some of their family histories. I often wonder what they would make of this abode with its mod cons were they able to return from the past for a visit.
Regards Sue
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The old skills haven't been lost, there are just less of us around to practise them.
I don't need to know the position of the stars to tell how far a cow is off calving. I just look at her a**e.
kmo
nnnnth generation ag lab
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One thing to note is that "Ag Lab" as a category hid a number of very skilled jobs.
One of my ancestors Thomas Cork of Clayhidon was an Ag Lab on a number of census but he was actually a wheelwright.
P
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This post just endorses my plea to people to look into their family HISTORY, not just their family TREE.
Find out how your ancestors lived, how much they were paid, how many they slept to a room (often no bed), how they travelled, what they ate, what furniture they had, what their most prized posession was, how they wiped their bottom (before newspapers), how their toilets worked, what did women use, ............................the list is endless
Teddybear
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Bob, thanks for posting that, puts things in perspective a bit.
teddybear I agree, the people and history are important. When I first started 'doing' my family, my goal was to find as many as possible but now it's more to do with trying to understand who they were a bit, as difficult as that is. I'm curious if other people experienced the same process.
Cheers
Jonathan
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Yes I agree it's nice to be able to work out your family's lives as well as their dates.
Seeing some of your websites - I thought I would start by putting something down about my Great Grandfather.
From census, occupations and children's birth dates and places lived.
Even tho no one else will probably read it I wrote 4 pages and when I read it back to myself I felt I really knew about him, far more than just dates.
But he was never an Ag Lab !! ;D ;D
Cheers
Keith
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Have you ever read "Lark Rise to Candleford" by Flora Thompson .I t gives a vivid insight into the 19th C and the rural poverty and richness of the lives of the 'humble poor' to quote'
'on whose backs the whole of society rested and without whom the whole edifice would have come tumbling down.'
They were the back bone of the English Empire.
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I apologise if this topic has already been discussed but I was unable to find it.
What is the difference, if any, between an Ag Labourer and a Farmer's Man.? I have found an Ag Lab whose description I've read in a previous posting but have been unable to find anything about a Farmer's Man.
An explanation would be welcomed. :) :)
Juddee
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Being from U.S. I would just like to know what an Ag Lab is? Never heard that till here. Oh, a little aside here too, from this site I picked up the word Relly meaning Relative and I recently used it at a site consentrating mainly on New England and no one there knew what Relly ment, so it is obviously a U.K. thing. But I appreciate All the shorthand I can get. Leagen
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Hi Léagen,
there are some good descriptions of Ag Labs here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=29238.0 merged
but -- sorry, Juddee, I don't know the difference between Ag Lab and Farmer's man
I did find this through Google: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/colin.higgins/forester/plough-t.htm
It's a forester's plough play,
Plough Plays are the type of Mummers' play found in the East Midlands region of the UK. They are distinguished from Mummers' plays both by the fact that they are performed on Plough Monday (the first Monday after Twelfth Night), and by the names of the characters in them.
and contains this verse spoken by the "Farmer's man"
In comes I the farmer's man
Don't you see my whip in hand
As I go forth to plough the land and turn it upside down
How straight I go from end to end
And never make a baulk or bend
And all my horses I attend
As they go marching round the end
Whoa, back Bob.
Me ?? A Horse ?? Nay !!
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Well, I guess I must be something of an Ag Lab myself. I have been a pig-midwife and a goat-midwife MANY times. Lived on a farm in Fla. and at the top had 99 pigs and 16 goats and 7 calves and 8 horses. Never had cows but have helped one give birth w/a neighbor. And I am female and less than 5 feet tall and only 90 lbs.! There always seemed to be 3 sows giving birth at once, my husband would handle helping one and I would help one and we both helped the third. We had litters w/as many as 18 piglets. Good feed does that and they were Range pigs, meaning they had over 3 acres land to roam on and ate roots etc.. Pigs should Never live only in pens. I just love pigs and had to get out of the business due to feeling sorry they had to go to market, they were too smart and I felt bad for them. Now I just have cats and dogs. But I never have been good in a garden, I only buy plants to watch them die. No green thumb here. All my ancestors right to my mother were farmers so guess it is in my blood at least as far as the animals go. Leagen
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Hi Juddee,
This may be a bit confusing, but I am going to take a shot at this farm worker question.
There are three common terms for farm workers in the 19th century , "ag.lab.", "farm servant" and "farmer's man", as well as individual skilled jobs such as "cowman", "carter", etc. On census returns the generic term "ag. lab"tended to be used for all of them and this term seems to have been adopted by family historians.
Properly speaking, "ag.labs." were lower down on the totem pole, did unskilled jobs and moved around quite a bit and were usually unmarried. They were paid by the week or by the job. Whereas,
. permanent farm workers, often called "farm servants" or more often, by their job title, "shepherd" or whatever.. These men, usually married, lived in a cottage on the farm or in a nearby hamlet, were skilled workers and were paid a quarterly or yearly wage. The terms "farm servant" and "farmer's man" were often used interchangeably, therefore sometimes a "farmer's man" may have been a shepherd, carter, or cowman.
Sometimes the term, "farmer's man" was used to describe a young man learning a skilled farm job such as that of shepherd or even general farm management (a sort of farm apprentice) or it could be applied to a boy or an old man doing odd jobs around the house and farmyard. The term could even be applied to someone with great responsibilities, for example a bailiff or steward.
I have seen the term in wills and guessing that farmers, even fairly big ones, did not employ valets or man servants, I did a little research to find out just what they meant by "my man".
I am afraid that there is no way of knowing what a particular "farmer's man" actually did for a living without knowing a lot more about him, his background, education and other jobs, etc. and the social hierarchy
on the farm where he worked.
Hope my explanation was not too confusing.
Cheers,
Carmela
P.S. Leagan, ag.lab.= agricultural labourer
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sounds as life was pretty hectic! Anyone who thinks that city life was busier than in the country obviously never lived on a farm! What a lovely way of life to lead though! Although I have never personally made the acquaintance of one, I rather like pigs too. They seem great characters. Much maligned beasts. I used to be nurse in a nursing home so I know that you get used to the smell!
Dont know if you are interested in English history but the book I mentioned gives a wonderful insight into rural England in 19th C and if you have time to read you should see if you can get a copy. I know you'd enjoy it.
I am now an illustrator and I dip into the book for inspiration as it has wonderful word pictures of the English countryside before the industrial revolution changed it for ever.
all the best
Annie
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Keith
I agree, I started just trying to get back as far as I could, but now I want to know more about my family members, what were their lives like etc. I came to this decision because my favourite gran died when I was 25, and I thought I knew her pretty well, she lived locally and I spent a lot of my childhood with my grandparents. My brother bought the house on my grandfather's death and in the attic we found a bundle of loveletters written from my gran to my grandad in the 30's. I decided I did not know her at all. :) She sounded a fascinating girl as a youngster and led an interesting life and so different from the little old lady I knew. How did she become that way?
kerryb
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its called the passing of time or
life! :~D
you wait! You'll find out!!!
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Tahnks anigran
I look forward to it!!!!! ;D
kerryb
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well dont miss the bit in the middle the 40 or so years which is where you have fun and then turn into your grandmother!!!
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They were the back bone of the English Empire.
:o
As I try to remember that New years Resolution .......
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Thanks Carmela for that explanation. :D I'm presently delving into what their work conditions etc were like on farms so this has given me a better understanding of the terms used.
Berlin - Bob
Thank you for posting Ag Labs. :D Really bought home how tough and hard working my ancestors were. Quite a few of my family were and are farmers so the tradition has carried on to the present.
But it doesn't seem to matter what job description they had one thing is for sure they all worked ...... hard!!!!
Kind regards
Juddee :) :)
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One thing I did notice about most of my ancestors who lived and worked on the land, was that they lived far longer than those who moved to the cities for work. Although it was often a case of work or starve as there was no such thing as retirement.
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Heres a link that has some intersting info...
www.ruralhistory.org/nof/victorianfarming
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This post just endorses my plea to people to look into their family HISTORY, not just their family TREE.
Find out how your ancestors lived, how much they were paid, how many they slept to a room (often no bed), how they travelled, what they ate, what furniture they had, what their most prized posession was, how they wiped their bottom (before newspapers), how their toilets worked, what did women use, ............................the list is endless
Teddybear
I quite agree with this.
Someone once told me that looking into your ancesters is not just about the family tree, it is about putting the leaves and flowers onto the branches.
Kim
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Just replying to Leagen's plea early on in this thread...
Leagen, an Ag Lab is an Agricultural Labourer (but you've probably already worked that out by now!)
The term "rellie" for relative I didn't realise was used in the UK, but it's definitely used in Australia where we attempt to abbreviate everything possible - it's said that we do it so we don't have to open our mouths for as long, thus preventing flies from getting in!!! ;D Here's an example:
"I'm gunna make sm bikkies after I 'ave me brekky, coz the rellies 'r' comin' round 'n' the hubby's chuckin' a tanty coz there's no footy on the telly till Satdee"
:)
Prue
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Are men born free and equal? by Robert Buchanan 1890
"in past times, treated the farmer's man as half-labourer and half-pauper"
Wessex Tales by Thomas Hardy
"Some few years ago a certain farmer was riding through this lane in the gloom of a winter evening. The farmer's friend, a dairyman, was riding beside him. A few paces in the rear rode the farmer's man"
Another reference in Shakespeare in Love refers to the farmers man or churl beating his flail on the corn.
Conclusion:
The farmer's man was the lowest rank of farm labourer who road at the rear of hs master and lived in poverty.
A churl, in its earliest Anglo-Saxon meaning, was simply "a man", but the word soon came to mean "a non-servile peasant", still spelt ceorle, and denoting the lowest rank of freemen. According to the Oxford English Dictionary it later came to mean the opposite of the nobility and royalty, "a common person". This meaning held through the 15th century, but by then the word had taken on negative overtone, meaning "a country person" and then "a low fellow". By the 19th century, a new and pejorative meaning arose, "one inclined to uncivil or loutish behaviour".
Mike
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You wouldn't happen to have an ISBN on that book, would you?
dawghows
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Sorry no, just went hunting of the web for a quote.
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Are Men Born Free and Equal? Article by Robert Buchanan that appeared in the Daily Telegraph, Jan., 1890 See:
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/UnColl/PMG/PMGetal/THH-RB.html
Wessex Tales by Thomas Hardy. Available at any good book shop or library. Many copies for sale online. Try: http://abebooks.com/
hth,
Carmela
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Ta, saved me going searching again
Mike
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Are all you (UK) descendants of Ag Labs are watching "Tales from the Green Valley" (BBC2, Friday, 7.30pm)
A group of archeologists are running a farm as it would have been worked in the 1620s, putting into practice what they have learnt intellectually. It's very interesting seeing the theories put to the test and the archeologists learning from the practical experience.
Seeing how much our Ag Labs had to know and how many skills they had to master to do their work as it changed through the year should be enough to stop anyone thinking of them as "just Ag Labs"!
Monica
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Monica
I meant to watch, but have missed both episodes so far and forgot the video! :'( :'( :'(
It is a good series, shall I remember this Friday?
kerryb
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This is an old thread I just found (should be outside in the garden planting the broad beans !) ... but having lived for many years on the equator in rural Africa, it occurred to me that the lives of the people I lived amongst must be very like the lives of our Ag.Lab ancestors ... very hand to mouth living, in very basic living conditions. But extremely skilled at all sorts of things ... looking after cattle, making their own tools, growing things ... and the women's lives were hard also ... too many children, carrying water and wood, and capable of walking what to us seems like vast distances, because of lack of transport. We had a lad staying with us for a while who walked 20 miles, in the dark, to school every Monday morning; stayed there for the week, then walked home, in the dark, through the bush, on a Friday evening ...
Anyway, I must go back to being my 21st ag.lab self, and plant those beans !
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That is so interesting , particularly as Im researching how the 1820 British Settlers lived when they got to the Eastern Cape of South Africa and were shocked to find a wilderness.
I was puzzling as to how they got water since the rivers are in deep gullies in the Albany region. I'd guess buckets from a stream.
I think that having come from the England where there were some advances on 17th Century by the time of the industrial revolution, which was in full swing by 1820. By 1820 they would probabaly have struggled to do things the way their forebears did! Although I suspect they might have had a better idea of how than we would today if we were plunged into a similar situation.
You're right about walking. I was reading about William Blake and a period in his life, living in a remote village and he walked 7 miles to take his sister to catch a coach, and back again. These days most of us go pale at thought of walking more than half a mile!
Green Valley was a brilliant series, I was glued to it. Wish Id taped it!
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The Africans I knew best were in rural Kenya; they sometimes used wells for water, or more likely, Lake Victoria's dubious water (bilharzia, malaria, dysentery ... hope no-one reading this at tea-time !) ... or local rivers and water-holes. It wasn't the tea that made the water brown, it was the water ! I think Africans out in the arid areas fared better for cleaner water ... it came from deep wells, and a group of men would climb on foot-holds down the wells, and pass the water up in skins, hand to hand ... singing as they did it !
I think it was the same for settlers in Canada ... my Gr. aunt went to Canada in1898 ... and then spent some time (years ?) travelling in a covered wagon looking for suitable land with her husband ! Imagine that, going from a relatively comfortable life 'in service' in Hampshire, and then a few years later, having to have babies in a wagon, live in a 'soddy', and brave the temperatures of 50 below on the prairies in the winter. Only 100 years ago ...
We dont know we are born ...
(And I see you are also interested in Pomeroy's ? Me too ...)
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I'm glad this thread has been brought up again - it started before I joined Rootschat! Made me feel rather guilty as I had thought of my lot "Oh, they're just ag labs", now I realise that they were skilled and contributed hugely to society.
Interesting that the thread lead to S Africa, where the other half comes from.
meles
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Co-incidentally I have just been looking at this online book - "Handy Farm Devices and How to Make Them" by Rolfe Cobleigh. It's an American book, published in 1910, when self-sufficiency really was self-sufficiency!
Looking through it, you have to admire the skills required not just to do the jobs on the farm but being able to make the tools required to do them.
Monica
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I'm still using almost every time I do gardening, a 'jembe' (an African hoe) made for me 10 years ago by an African friend ... from a curved piece of hardwood cut from a tree, and a lump of beaten out car spring ! Recycling ? Nothing new ! Its done every day in many parts of Africa, and was I'm sure by our Ag. lab's !!
My own daughter is a great recycler ... she married last year, and they asked for 'hand-made', 'home-made' or 'recycled' gifts only ... and they had fantastic presents !
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Well, at least the Ag Labs were one up from the paupers and I've got both in about equal quantities.
But there's something about being an Ag Lab. Once you get dirt under your finger nails it's hard to get rid of it.
If they weren't busy being clerics, or butchers, or paupers( to be pitied in those days not looked down on) my Ag Labs of North Marston did a hard day's work.
They handed their dirty finger nails down to my dear little Dad, who helped feed his Mother and the family, by growing veg in the back garden after WW1. Later he supplemented our rations by 'Digging for Victory' with our own garden, along with keeping hens. ducks and rabbits.
Married, I started a pocket sized veggie patch in my new little home, but we had some cracking good food.
Son and heir? He earned his crust as a Gardener when we were in Scotland...........
The dirty finger nails live on.
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Yep, the dirty finger nails live on !
My Ag.lab's gardened; my grandmother had her Hampshire garden in London thru the war ... there's many a saucepan she let boil dry while day-dreaming in her garden in Fulham ! ... my father gardened, grew us carrots like base-ball bats; I garden, grow more modest sized veg; my three daughters all garden.
As you say, when the dirt is under the finger-nails and in the blood, it stays there !
And isn't it GREAT that it does !
Lydart
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Dirt under the fingernails - that is an interesting point actually!
My mum's paternal line have been Yeoman, farmers and Ag Labs since the 1500s and guess what my brother, my sister and I have all got vegetable gardens and both my brother and sister have chickens.
As you say the dirt lives on!
Kerry
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Have you ever read "Lark Rise to Candleford" by Flora Thompson .I t gives a vivid insight into the 19th C and the rural poverty and richness of the lives of the 'humble poor' to quote'
'on whose backs the whole of society rested and without whom the whole edifice would have come tumbling down.'
They were the back bone of the English Empire.
Click here (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/united_kingdom_history/90874) to read a three page "Lark Rise to Candleford" - book review © Lynda Langford
It's actually a two page review and some comments about the review.
Christopher
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Thanks for that Christopher
The TV programme starts on BBC1 in the next week. I hope it bears some passing resemblence to the book! It's got some high profile names starring.
Kerry
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Is that the Lark Rise books ? I do hope so !
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Hi Lydart
It is, it's called Lark Rise to Candleford so her childhood and then off to the post office.
Dawn French and Julia Sawalha are in it amongst others.
Kerry
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Looking forward to that !!
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Oh, I love that book but hate tlevision adaptations. They often destroy one's mental imagery :-\
I've recently found another gamekeeper among my ancestors. He was from Norfolk originally and his final residence was two miles from where Pels is now :)
Gadget
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Now with all my ag labs I've not found a Gamekeeper. Why do I think Norfolk would be the place for them? Big Estates I suppose, not many of them in East Sussex. Somehow I think more of mine would be the poachers. ::) ::)
Kerry
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It was that James Burgess's son in law - no ag labs in that line! Mind you, they met in Cranbrook (Hemsted) on Gathorne Gathorne-Hardy's estate - Agnes was a domestic servant.
Gadget :)
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How romantic ;D Presumably he could catch the dinner and she could cook it.
Kerry
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One of my ag. lab's was also a poacher, but when he was caught, it turned out OK ... they gave him a very long holiday in Oz, all expenses paid !! :D :D :D :D
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This discussion re. Ag. Labs is simply the old one. Do we or do we not respect the "working class" In these snobby days of "middle England", or "how much is my house is worth" or "which private school should we send our grandchildren to?", we forget at our peril the skill of the "artisan". Imagine the greatest surgeon operating without a scalpel! Every person is entitled to due respect. Rant over!!
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This discussion re. Ag. Labs is simply the old one. Do we or do we not respect the "working class" In these snobby days of "middle England", or "how much is my house is worth" or "which private school should we send our grandchildren to?", we forget at our peril the skill of the "artisan". Imagine the greatest surgeon operating without a scalpel! Every person is entitled to due respect. Rant over!!
Artisans and craftsmen are practically a dying breed. Future craftsmen at schools which teach technical subjects are worth as much respect at those at private schools who are studying the Classics.
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Call me a snob if yer like, I prefer to call my ag labs my 'Sons of the Soil' :D
Now with all my ag labs I've not found a Gamekeeper. Why do I think Norfolk would be the place for them? Big Estates I suppose, not many of them in East Sussex. Somehow I think more of mine would be the poachers. ::) ::)
Kerry
I've got a Gamekeeper living in Lewes c1861.
My dad was a 'vermin trapper' after the 2nd WW and worked his way up to Gamekeeper...Mum reckons he was the biggest poacher in the neighbourhood at one time...well he did have six children to feed ::)
Suey
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Interested in the fact that Lark Rise is going to be on tv...does anyone else remember the production at the Cottesloe Theatre, London, in the '70s with folk music by the Albion Band?
It was a promenade play so the actors wandered among the standing audience. It was fantastic and moving. . At the end the play looks into the future, to Remembrance Day.The names on the war memorial are read out, and the little boy in the play says "........That's my name".
We loved the production and went twice, and when we moved to the country we named our cottage after it.
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A quick thank you for posting the Ag Lab item! Most of my family, back to 1749, were Farmers, Ag Labs and Husbandman (Groom). I wondered how important the role was and now I know. Kudos to those who worked and loved the land!
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Oh I enjoyed that article on ag lab's and the posts that followed.
My ancestors on my father's side were all ag lab's so I really found it interesting thinking about what their lives were really like. ;)
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If you enjoyed this topic, you might also like these two topics on Agricultural Labourers in the
RootsChat Reference Library (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/index.php) => Lexicon (click here) (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=A)
:)
Bob
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Ag Labs. Salt of the Earth!
Found in Liverpool Family Historian June 02
Food For Thought- He must have been an Ag Lab
"Ask yourselves whether you know the gestation period for a sheep or a cow, and you can't read or write to make a note of it. The ag lab knew when the animal would calve by observing the position of the stars and work it out from that, or from the particular religious festivals being celebrated in church at the appropriate times. Reading and writing is one thing, but it wasn't necessary, numeracy however or a limited knowledge of it was essential so as to count his or his masters livestock and his own money and to tell the time. It was no good thinking that 7 o'clock came immediately after three bells had just struck on the church clock!
There was no electricity, the lanes were bad and there was no health service. The Ag lab knew how to make his own rush lights to light his home, the shortest and driest route between 2 places and which herbs to pick as remedies for his families ailments. He knew his neighbours far better than we know ours. We isolate ourselves in our cars and in front of our television sets. He relied on neighbours with different skills from his, to help him out when the need arose. He was thrifty where we borrow on bits of plastic he and his family had to make ends meet regardless or with great shame go on the parish.
Yes he could even forecast his local weatherby watching the reactions of wildlife and plants to changing conditions. He was far better at it than any of us from our centrally heated homes and offices. He knew how to thatch and how to get straight straw for thatching whereas we send for experts to fix a cracked slate.
He was tough. He could walk for days behind a plough, pulled by a team of horses, and still walkmiles to church each sunday. A 20 mile walk laden with produce or purchases to and from market each week was also the norm for some. No fancily equipped gymnasium for him, yet he was fitter than today's health freaks who maybe should take a lesson or two from his ancestors.
Can you use a sickle or scythe from dawn to dusk, in all weathers? Can you snare a rabbit for dinner or cut beanpoles from a hedge in a manner that will promote further growth? Can you mix your own whitewash, or train a dog to hunt or round up sheep for you? Come to that can you milk a cow or slaughter and butcher a sheep or pig?
So-called ag labs were no fools. they survived and very few of us would be here to read this if they hadn't !
Leave your car at home and walk to work tomorrow, even if it is five miles, your ancestor did!"
Hi Bob,
It's hard enough finding ancestors never mind snaring rabbits 8)
Here's a useful link for RootsChatters interested in learning how to snare rabbits.
http://tinyurl.com/6no3a2
Having caught your rabbit do what your ancestors did and make rabbit pie .... I seem to recall people having rabbit to eat during the war years ... Nettle soup was also quite popular so have that before the pie ...
www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Recipe+for+Nettle+Soup&meta=
www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Recipe+for+Rabbit+Pie&meta=
Christopher
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Ooooooooooooh yes, Christopher, you asked no questions in the war years. I can remember my Mum patiently picking out the little black pellets. It was grub, and that was what mattered.
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As long as she didn't use the little black pellets in a cake and call them chocolate drops ! ;D
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;D no, those little black pellets were for the bread and butter pudding ;D
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I'm pleased this thread has been brought back up. I find it so interesting learn how people lived, and I just love that description of an ag lab life, I have it saved already and have sent it to one or two people by pm, as I didn't know I could paste it.
I also have another article about the wages paid to them, and how they were hired. I think it's alright to post...........it's quite long
Farm Servants - Wages
Malton Messenger 1874
Girls 12 – 18 yrs £6 - £8
Upper servants & housekeepers £13 - £15
Boys 13 –15 yrs £10 - £12
Boys 16 – 18 yrs £18 - £20
Good shepherds, experienced foremen £20 - £30
(Some asked for and were engaged for more)
Driffield Times 14 Nov 1874
Young foreman £25
Experienced foreman £30
Young waggoner £18
Experienced waggoner £20
Strong ploughboy £13 - £15
Young maid-of-all-work £9 - £12
Housemaid £12 - £14
Experienced cook £20
Farm servants were paid annually, on the completion of their year, minus any subsidies they had been given.
The wage of an agricultural servant was divided equally between a cash payment and his keep
e.g. 1900, an average waggoner’s wage was £25 cash & 5s fest
£25 board and lodging
Total – £50-5s
Farm servants - The Hirings
Male and female servants would gather at the hiring venue to bargain with prospective employers and so secure a position for the coming year.
“Driffield Times” 15th November 1873
“Early in the morning, the great stream of humanity rolled into the town, conveyed thither in every conceivable appliance that could be obtained for the occasion; but conspicuous amongst the rest were the heavy waggons with their living freight, which were deposited amid the greetings of those who had chanced to outstrip them in the drive to town. Other vehicles, from heavy waggons to the humble donkey and cart were to be seen threading their way through the streets, to their several destinations. The Railway Company, too, brought hundreds into the town by special and regular
trains, which were literally packed. At about nine o’clock, the bustle was commenced in earnest, for by that time most of the servants had congregated”
If a bargain was struck, the farmer gave the Lad a “fest”, or fastening money – a small sum in recognition of the hiring. The amount of the fest varied; usually 5s for a waggoner and 2/6d for other workers.
The whole range of working conditions was subject to an implicit informal agreement, which both the farmer and the worker assumed to automatically be part of the agreement – hours of work, holidays, sick pay.
Once the fest money had changed hands, a legally binding agreement had been entered into. If either party withdrew before the year was up, magistrates and judges had special powers to enforce the contract.
Contracts were usually oral. What few written contracts there were rarely specified more than the agreed wage and the termination date, e.g
“I Samuel Ellwood engage to Mr Francis Johnson as waggoner from Martinmas 1897 to Martinmas 1898 for £19 – nineteen pounds. Signed ……”
Here's a bit of background info on ag labs:
During the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, those working on the land could be categorised as:
1. farmers and their male relatives working on the land
a) owner occupiers
b) tenant farmers
2. farm servants
3. agricultural labourers
4. casual workers
Agricultural labourers were, generally, those who were married or had dependents. They were paid daily or on a weekly basis, or at busy times (such as harvest) by piece work rates. They lived in their own homes and made up 43% of the farming workforce.
Casual workers, (including women and children) were hired as additional, supplementary help at busy times in the farming calendar, such as shearing, haymaking and the corn and potato harvest.
In the East Riding, lots of the casual labour force were itinerants from the Dales or Ireland.
Farm servants were unmarried, or occasionally widowers with no dependent family members, who were hired and paid on an annual basis and who received their board and lodging as a part of their annual wage. In the 1850’s, this group provided 33% of the East Riding farming population.
They were subject to legally enforceable contracts of employment, and in East Yorkshire, these contracts ran from Martinmas (23rd November) to Martinmas.
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Thank you for putting that up Silvery ... its most informative !
I think it ought to have said that the wages stated were for a year, rather than weekly !!
When I think what people earn (did I say EARN nowadays for jobs demanding very little skills, it makes you wonder about the ways of the world. All the annual pay demands, wage reviews ...
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I've coloured it in about the yearly pay. It makes you wonder how they managed in the first year, waiting for payday. There must surely have been some transactions that you needed money to pay for.
And of course if you were sick or injured, you wouldn't get paid at all. A hard life, even with growing your own veg etc, and keeping chickens, or a pig.
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Sorry ... read it in a hurry !
A hard life, even with growing your own veg etc, and keeping chickens, or a pig.
... and producing too many children :-\
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Thanks, Silvery. Many of those occupations occur again and again in my tree. It is good to put what they actually did in context.
meles
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I'm sure that women didn't actually want that many children. What woman would (apart from some). But there was no contraception.
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I'm sure that women didn't actually want that many children. What woman would (apart from some). But there was no contraception.
Hmmm ... read this !
http://www.craigsweb.com/condom2.htm
RootsChat:- Education for Everyone !!
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Now that's interesting reading....
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Lydart + Google = encyclopaedia universica !!
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I'm sure that women didn't actually want that many children. What woman would (apart from some). But there was no contraception.
Hmmm ... read this !
http://www.craigsweb.com/condom2.htm
RootsChat:- Education for Everyone !!
Well I have known about these condoms, but that is a good link.
Perhaps I should have qualified, 'easily available and affordable'.
But thanks for the link anyway. :)
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Thanks for that Silvery
Very interesting, especially the difference between occupations at the bottom, I never really understood that there were differences. Some of my rural ancestors seemed to chop and change between Ag Lab, tenant farmer and back again throughout the census records. Now I know the differences perhaps I can formulate some theories as to why
Kerry
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There are other sources here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,161015.0.html
Gadget :)
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Wonderful. Thank you, Gadget.
Paulene :)
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HI All
Most of my ancestors were as you say Aglabs .On all the information i have both my Grandads [who were brothers] !! and my great grandad were down as Ag Labs . Trouble is they were Smiths
and they moved around a lot was this due to finding work .Would work in 1915 on the farms been scarce as according to a war pension record for one of my grandads brothers it gives his father John Smith as a coal miner living in Polesworth.Will post a topic there to see what i can find out but its interesting to read about Ag Labs .
Tarnya
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Finally got round to reading the additional 3 pages of postings since I last looked. I found the link and watched the 9 minute clip for "tales from the green valley" and am interested in the BBC 1 "Lark rise to Candleford" series I wonder? :
http://www.petersommer.com/about-peter-sommer-travels/tales-from-the-green-valley/
It's a shame NZ T.V isn't playing these (or I've missed them here) May just have to buy them hey.
Yes I think Ag Labs did live longer lives (some of my ancestors did) 1740 - 1835 (85), a farmer and one of his sons Saint Andrew (yes weird name but born on St. Andrews day) 1820 - 1900 (80). They seemed to be good strong healthy men to have lived to that good old age.
I have said it previously and I'll say it again thank you to everyone for all your tid-bits of information - I never thought when I started this that I would learn so much about history as well as my family. Loving IT! ;D
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You're not alone in that, galaxy.
I started looking for the name Denchfield, (as a chirstian name, but it turned out to be one of those surnames carried over) because my father always said it was a funny name, and it was special to the family...
How could I have guessed, when I was first interested, about 11 years old, that now, 50+ years on, I would find that back in the 1500s I had an ancestor leaving 'a mucke cart with 2 payre lugge wheles,' in his will....
I'm rather proud of that muck cart, anyone can have rings and things, but I don't know anyone else being left one of those.
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Hi Paula
My Great grandmothers maiden name was Edden and 1 of the sons had Edden as a first name and 2 of them as a second name so i thought they would be easy to trace but with a name like Smith and being Ag Labs no hope .
P.S i have a Selina Denchfield in my family Tree .
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Tarnya
That's interesting about the name Edden because I have that in my family tree in one line but for girls names. They weren't particularly easy to trace either.
Kerry
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How strange is that .Do you know where your Edden name originated from
my lot were Eydon Northamptonshire and the Smiths were from Woodford Halse.
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As far as I know it was mid Sussex but that's not proved! I wondered whether they thought their little patch of Sussex was the garden of Eden ::) ::) ;D
Kerry
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kERRY
Think my greatgrandparents john Smith and ellen edden found their garden of eden on the moon as i sure cannot find them after 1901.
Tarnya
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So you have a Denchfield too, tarnya.
Where did she come from. Mine are Bucks.
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Kerry
As far as i know Selina Denchfield was born in Leighton Buzzard in 1851.She married George
Smith .
Tarnya
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Hi I have been reading the posts on ag.labs and Silvery has it
more or less right.
The position in Scotland was slightly different.
An ag.lab was very often free lance being employed on a casual
basis. A farm servant was bound to the farmer for a period of six months there were two hiring fairs in the year conditions being much as Silvery describes this practice continued in Scotland untill the end of world war 2.
My fathers first hiring was in 1937 aged 13 school leaving age was 14 but orphens or children with no father or no relitive to support them left at 13 his wage being £11 for six months
when war broke out the rules changed and you had to stay on
farm that you were employed for the duration of the war
in my fathers case the farmer went bankrupt and he worked the last year of the war for no wages.
Renard
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Welcome Renard !
Can anyone say anything about family status of ag. lab's pre 1800 ... i.e. were ag labs sons of ag labs who were sons of ag labs back ad infinitum, or could families have 'come down' in the world, just as these days, factory workers children are now going up in the world, going to uni to become doctors, etc., whereas their gr. grand-parents were from ag lab stock.
Some ideas/facts/opinions would be useful ...
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Hi
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Sorry about that don't know what happened there message sent while I was still typing.
Yes fairly common when there were several sons as the eldest would inherit everything also farmers sons often worked as
ag.labs until they acquired a farm of their own
Renard
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Hi Everyone,
I have just found this thread and I am fascinated at the concept that some people have of Ag Labs.
I think that Bob has it about right in his lovely description, and as one who got up at 5.30am and milked the cows, [by hand] fed the pigs and cycled a mile to do it before I went to the office, and again after I got home. I have great respect for the relis who did this job day in day out all weathers all their lives! They had no transport at all.
I am proud to have Ag labs on both sides in my F Tree. One of my G.G.Grandfathers worked his way up to being a Farm Bailiff, according to the census returns he started out as an Ag Lab and by 1861 had been promoted. There were a lot of men employed on that farm and he would have been in charge.
So it is hardly surprising that I have farming in my blood, have kept livestock all my life and like PaulaToo’s dad have bred, rabbits for meat and had a ‘pig in the house’! That means a pig that was kept for the family when the rest went to the bacon factory. We made our own bacon and smoked it in the chimney with oak chippings, it was delicious.
But we had to give up our ration books for that even in the 50’s
I used to work for a Country Vet, and loved the dairy side of the business. Sadly, most of those farms have gone now, but we used to vaccinate and TB test the cattle, do the regular blood tests and other jobs that Vets do on farms! It was a magical time for me. The modern Ag labs were clever people, most of them had been to College and got a proper degree in animal husbandry, but like their forefathers, learned from their own experiences all the time.
My Son is now a farmer in his own right. He owns his farm, and keeps beef cattle and sheep. Lucky man, it is a very hard life but very rewarding. But ‘not a way to get rich quick’. It is always forgotten by the general public that most farmers have all their money tied up in land, machinery and livestock.
I had better get off my soap box fast! I could tell you a few stories and no mistake!
I am so very glad that I found this thread, it is most interesting!
Rabbit B ;)
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Hi Renard and welcome.
Good to have you on the Board.
Things didn't always work out right for the expected 'son and heir,' either.
I have one who married the wrong girl, upset his widowed mother by committing such a dreadful outrage and was cut out of the will entirely. He and his wife 'died paupers.'
I hope they were happy, they deserved some compensation.
Wattcher Rabbit, should have known it was you...
Just pressed the button to post and it said there was another message....
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Hiya, Paula,
I should have welcomed Renard too! So Sorry, I did not mean to be rude and ignore you! Welcome to Rootschat!
I have yet to find my Irish Grandad who was a groom, and came from a long line of horsemen so I am told! I have yet to prove that!
Re your relis it is amazing what comes to light when you 'dig and delve' a little!
Rabbit B ;D
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Dig? Dig?
Not in the stuff one of my rellies was concerned with.
I don't seem to be able to 'dig up' any decent ag labs, mine seem to be all Preacher men woodworkers and tailors.
No ag labs...
Swap anyone a Preacher for an ag lab....any offers?
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fairly common when there were several sons as the eldest would inherit everything
One part of my ancestry has been traced back to 1360 (that is 16 generations) and until 1554 we were doing well, owning manor houses etc. Then the one born in 1554 was robbed of his inheritance by his uncle after his parents died. Nevertheless he married into money and had sons of his own. Unfortunately, at this point, my ancester was only the 6th son and it was the eldest who inherited the manor house and became Lord of the Manor and was granted arms by the College of Arms London, whilst my ancestor and his descendants became ag.labs.
It is because the family was rich and influential that is has been possible to trace it so far back. I wonder what the very rich ones would have thought if they'd known that by the middle of the 1700s, their ancestors would be ag labs and by the middle of the 1800s, were living in very poor conditions in Hull and similar places working as labourers, blacksmiths and trawlermen.
Lizzie
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A most interesting thread.
Have just checked on the one Ag Lab I have in my tree - my 4 x Gt.Grandpa.
He died in 1887 - age 87 - all that fresh-air and hard work did him no harm........
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Several, if not all, of my ag. labs lived to a ripe old age too ...
as you say, its a good advert for fresh air, hard work and simple food ...