RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: hiraeth on Wednesday 16 April 08 09:45 BST (UK)
-
I have a marriage bond from 1810 - the bride and groom are both listed as being from Groeslon Llanllechid. when I searched Groeslon on Genuki it came up with two locations - one near Llanbeblig and one at Llandwrog. Since Llandwrog is very close to Llanllechid I'm guessing that this the right one. Can anyone familiar with the area help me with pinpointing where this Groeslon would have been and/or located today ?
thanks
Heather
-
The two Groeslon Genuki are pointing to are about 8 miles away from Llanllechid ... one on the Caernarvon to Porthmadog road (more like 10 miles)and the other on the Caernarvon to Beddgelert Road. I'm sure there is one between Llanllechid and Bethesda but it isn't showing on any map I have, recent or past. I'll have a hunt round.
Have you tried the 1841 census to find this couple and see where it says they were born?
-
Hi Welshgen
Thanks for looking - I thought it was me being half blind ;)
The man in question was a Robert Roberts, a sawyer age 60 on the 1841 census of Bangor. He died in January 1843 but his wife Ann Pierce Roberts survived for the 1851. She is listed then age 78, pob Llanllechid. I'm looking into Robert's history because I believe he was related to my 3xG grandfather John Roberts of Hirael. Coincidently they died within a fortnight of each other. John Roberts on Dec 28, 1842 and Robert Roberts Jan 10, 1843.
A Robert Roberts witnessed and signed my John Roberts will. The second witness was a Margaret Williams. Robert Roberts had a daughter Margaret who married a Richard Williams. I sent for the marriage licence and will of Robert Roberts - all three RR signatures match.
They were both involved in the wood trade in Bangor - sawyer and timber merchant respectively and both left houses to their children in their wills. In Robert Roberts case he left a total of fifteen houses plus ten more leaseholds on houses to his three children so he was better off than John! The marriage bond states that both were from Groeslon, Llanllechid and the marriage was to take place in Llanllechid. Robert & Anne's son, Zachariah, was a businessman in Bangor according to M. Elis-Williams book, Bangor Port of Beaumaris.
I guess what I need to do now is obtain Robert's death certificate and based off that look for baptisms in Llanllechid for both of them.
Heather
PS Have just remembered Zachariah states he was born in Llandwrog...
-
to add fuel to the fire you will find Pierce as a family name in all three locations - oooops sorry - shall I stay quiet!
Pierce is found in Nant Franccon for fact ( i descend from one of them) and on the search for Mary Pierce's ancestors I found Pierce's in the other two locations - that could have possibly moved into the area - but not sure no evidence just one of those possibly may be's.
if it is a help mary's family used patronymics so its her fathers first name - birth date for Mary is around the 1780 mark.
However, Welshgen - i too am certain of hearing in the mists of time of a Groes lon close by to Bethesda too - but hey how many times have we all heard "from the next village" and it was goodness knows how many miles away and over how many of our wonderful mountain passes!
Mair
-
Hi Mair
It is interesting that you mention Nant Ffrancon. My Dad was born in Tregarth and he told me many years ago that there had once been forests in that area but it had been cleared in the early 1800s for shipbuilding. These Roberts of mine were from the opposite side of my "tree" so the info would not have been handed down.
I've just read on wikipedia that Telford built the old A5 road through Nant Ffrancon between 1810-1826. I wonder whether that was where the trees for the timber trade/shipbuilding in Hirael during this same period came from?....
Heather
-
Hi Heather
Yes....my Dad said that he remembered being taken for "walks" when the family went back home up the valley and that he was told stories by "an old man" whom Nain and Taid let take the 3 boys off for a ramble or two, or three.......
The "old man" he once recalled to me lived at Pen y bryn and I think that this could have been my Dad's great uncle....I have no proof but it would be so nice to think that it was. If it was, his name was Robert Rowlands and he had been back and forth to the US a couple of times too. If it was Robert then his father was probably the sources for many of the stories before he left for the US - 90% of the family did.
How the valley was cleared, if the stories are to be believed and I am one that does trust what is handed down, is amazing..... as the history was Anglicised I dont think we will find out recorded truths here but will have to rely on what we have been told with the salt cellar nearby!
mair
PS Groeslon = cross road - so there's quite a few to go for in the locale let alone the official village!
-
Quote from the Vegetation History of Snowdonia since the Late Glacial Period by Peter Rhind and Barbara Jones, Countryside Council for Wales 2003
"Between 1754-60 large numbers of oaks continued to be extracted to the extent that much of the Gwydyr Estate near Betws-y-Coed appears to have been denuded of oak by that time (Davies, 1813). By the 18th and early 19th centuries a growth in demand for timber by the local boat-building industry of North Wales further exacerbated the situation, and by the end of the 18th century there appears to have been very little natural woodland remaining in Snowdonia."
Read the full report at:
http://www.field-studies-council.org/fieldstudies/documents/vol10.4_276.pdf
Fascinating stuff!!
-
Thanks for that link Hiraeth, and you are right about it being fascinating.
Is it possible "Groeslon" is a house name and the family at some time or another had links with Groeslon. I've had no luck with finding it near Llanllechid but have not given up on this.
-
Is it possible "Groeslon" is a house name and the family at some time or another had links with Groeslon.
Hi Welshgen
I wondered that but then both of them are described separately as being from there. One reason why I turned to Rootschatters for advice. After pouring over the oldmaps and current OS ones the parish of Llanllechid doesn't seem to have many crossroads either. Im afraid it is another mystery to add to the pile.
Heather
-
Hiraeth
There is a Croeslon Farm listed on the 1851 census in the Llanllechid parish. Judging by where it was in the census list I had a look at an old map and there it was. Croeslon. It was between Talybont and Gatehouse to the north of the parish near Llandygai/Llanegai ironically.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llanllechid/LlanllechidAE_604.html
I cant see on the current maps if it is still there - but worth a look at I think - what's a corruption in this part of North Wales if not confusing!
Mair
PS my Taid lived some of his childhood years at Gatehouse! (DOB 1884)
-
Interesting thought Mair. Thank you :) Unfortunately the "G" is pretty clear
-
I wouldn't discount Croeslon as mutation may be at work. The word for cross is croes. Depending on usage the first letter can mutate and is often done so to give a G. Croeslon and Groeslon mean the same. Obviously in this case the Welsh word is used in an English sentence.
Also it is in my experience that some placenames are not actual two roads crossing but junctions such as T junctions although I must say that the ones that spring to mind do have a fourth smaller lane/track leading to farmouses etc.
Have a look around this site and search the two different spellings.
http://www.e-gymraeg.co.uk/enwaulleoedd/amr/cronfa_en.aspx
It seems that there is one in Llanllechid which gives a map reference. Possibly the same one as Mair has provided?
gwil
-
........I also plead that the Croeslon i found on a later map is cited as Groeslon ( after my eager posting above) and also that it's right next to what is/was St Cross Church!
With it being SO close to Taid's family homes at Gatehouse and Tyn y Fawd i refer to an earlier message above
However, Welshgen - i too am certain of hearing in the mists of time of a Groes lon close by to Bethesda too - but hey how many times have we all heard "from the next village" and it was goodness knows how many miles away and over how many of our wonderful mountain passes!
It may take a leap of faith to look into but if you do you are no worse off than you are now really.
I can't decide if I can place the farm on a modern map yet or not - I am off to see if I can!
Mair
-
Hello Gwil & Mair
Thank you both very much for your help.
I looked up the site reference SH6070 for Groeslon Llanllechid from the Melville Richards archive site. Very interesting. It is right next to Lon Isa Llandegai where a paternal 4th Great grandfather Griffith Humphreys was farming in early 1800s - a very small world as it is likely he and Robert Roberts knew each other.
The mystery remaining though is why Croeslon/Groeslon was parish of Llanllechid vs Llandegai parish - perhaps it was just on the boundary of the two. I will write to Caernarfon RO to ask them to search both parish registers to see if they can find my John Roberts circa 1788, hopefully with a brother Robert which might help to prove I have found the right one :)
I really appreciate all your efforts.
Heather in Vancouver
-
If you go back to the 1850's or so census Llandegai parish was a very large area and covered parts of Bethesda up to Coed y Parc, also included was part of Llanfairfechan and also Y Felinheli (Port Dinorwic) so the farm would have been in Llanllechid village but in the Llandegai parish.
-
answer to the parish query - north side of the river - if north of river one parish ie LLanllechid if south - it was in Llandegai - the river was/is the boundary on the ecclesiastical parishes
that's it apparently :D
North of the river, Llanllechid - south - llandegai hence Tregarth treated as part of Bethesda in real world, was in Llandegai as south of river. Bethesda its self is found in Llanllechid parish as on north side of the river ..........
Mair
-
Thanks to Welshgen & Mair for the further input and info re parish boundaries. that will help a lot with puzling out more of mine on the censuses ;)
Heather
-
For anyone else researching Groeslon Llanllechid. My cousin in Montreal recalls she was once very familiar with Groeslon. She says it was very close to Bethesda Grammar School - at least in the late 40s/early 50s when she was a teenager ;)
Thanks to all for their input.
Heather
-
Might i suggest getting in touch with a local councillor who was educated there then
http://www.gwynedd.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=664;lID=1
will give the link to who to contact.
one never knows - from no Groeslon to two Groeslon - has to be worth a contact i would suggest - just in case!
M
-
New to this site but fascinated by this thread.
My interest lies in Zachariah (or Zechs or Zacharias) Roberts because he seems to have had a business relationship and perhaps also a friendship with my great great grandfather Samuel Griffiths - also known as Samuel Hughes Griffith(s).
In February 1850 Zachariah was co - owner of the brig Emily and transferred some of his interest to Samuel Griffith on his taking over as master of Emily at that date. The shares were transferred back in Jan 1852 when Samuel moved on to become master of Caradoc. (See M Elis-Williams Bangor Port of Beaumaris at p200)
Zachariah was also a witness at Samuel Griffith's marriage to Margaret Parry at the Cathedral in Bangor on 6 May 1853.
I have therefore tried to find out what I can about Zachariah and found what I think is his baptismal record in batch C103331 of the IGI records - parents Robert Roberts and Anne Pierce - baptism at Capel-Y-Gate House Calvinistic Methodist, Llanllechid on 26 June 1814. I have also traced him in the census records and he variously describes his birthplace as Groeslon (1851), Llanllechid (1861), Groeslon nr Bangor (1871) and Bangor (1881).
Not sure how helpful this is - but there is clearly a link between Groeslon and Llanllechid - and there is also a Calvinistic Methodist link by the looks of things.
Cherrian
-
Hi Cherrian
Welcome to rootschat :) Sorry it's been a while since your post. For some reason I did not get a notification email for this thread.
Anyway thank you for the additional info on Zachariah. I'm interested in your ancestor Samuel Hughes Griffith/s. Was he by any chance from Beaumaris? I have a Margaret Davies from Hirael who married a George Griffiths c1827 with Beaumaris /shipping connections in 1859 - also at the Cathedral. Margaret's stepfather Captain James Jones is also mentioned as a shipowner in the Elis-Williams book. Have you had any success researching Samuel Hughes vessel ownership/crew lists etc.?
Heather
-
Heather
I may be grabbing at straws here - but hey one connection through the Pierce's may prove there could be another one. ;D - ever hopeful.
Your shipping connections - any connections???
The grandson of Thomas Rowlands and Mary Pierce had shares in a ship. My family and I have always wondered what on earth a quarryman such as my great grandfather, John Rowlands (1840 - 1908) would be doing with shares in a Liverpool ship with the nearest connections to Wales being where the shipyard owner was born!
We have copies of the share certs that were deposited at the Archives - so it is not a family tale!
M
-
Hi Mair
From what I've read it was not uncommon for quarrymen to own shares in ships at that time. There were (are to this day) 64 shares in a ship and many were syndicated at the time. Not all the quarrymen were as poor and downtrodden as we tend to think of them now!
If you can, try to get a hold of the M. Elis-Williams book, Bangor Port of Beaumaris. It was a fascinating time in the history of the area and the book is an excellent read.
Heather
-
Hi Heather
Thanks for the welcome to rootschat.
You asked about Samuel Hughes Griffith. I have uncovered bits and pieces of his story by tracing the paper trail left by his having been a master mariner. From this I know that he was from Llaneilian, not Beamaris, (although Llaneilian is but a hop and a skip by boat from Beaumaris of course). He was born in February 1822, the second son of John Griffith and Catherine Hughes. John Griffith was a cooper by trade and a tenant farmer of a smallholding in Llaneilian known as Pen Slates. John Griffith seems to have taken over the tenancy on the death of his wife's mother - one Catherine Hughes (nee Roberts) who lived to the amazing age of 94 - and who had farmed the holding with her husband William Hughes for many years. Pen Slates continued to be farmed by the Griffith family well into the 20th century.
The only family story about Samuel Griffith that has survived is that he lost a ship in a terrible storm and died of discouragement shortly afterwards. He died in 1872 at the relatively young age of 50. I have spent some time trying to find out if there is any basis for the family story but have yet to come to any conclusion. As far as I know, he owned only one boat from around 1855 - the schooner Margaret and Ann, and she was not lost in a storm in 1872. Myrvin Elis-Williams tells her story at some length in his book Bangor Port of Beaumaris. He may however have held shares in other boats which may have been lost. He may also have been a member of the Bangor Mutual Shipping and Insurance Society which, I understand from the same book, had to make a huge call on its members as a result of losses in 1872. I have yet to do the research which might enable me to make better guesses as to what was the nature of his discouragement.
I have managed to trace some of the crew lists and half yearly returns of voyages for the Margaret and Ann for the period when Samuel Griffith was her owner. Only one of them lists his cargoes and I would guess it is fairly typical - slate from home, coals on one return journey and in ballast for several others.
Cherrian
-
Hi Cherrian
Have you read Ships and Seamen of Anglesey by Aled Eames for clues on your Samuel? I can look through my copy if not. I'm trying to locate my copy of Ventures In Sail by the same author but it has gone AWOL ::)
My great grandfather David Davies' family were blockmakers in Hirael. His father Hugh Davies 1803-1839 married Elizabeth Roberts, cousin of Zachariah. Hugh Davies was the son of David Davies blockmaker in Llanbeblig so my David was third generation. Elizabeth took over the blockmaking business and ran it after Hugh died until she married Capt James Jones in 1847. Presumably she had help from her family because she was left a widow with five children under age 10. James Jones and possibly his son were involved until my David completed his apprenticeship in Birkenhead and then took it up. As stated on an earlier post the Roberts family appeared to have owned quite a few properties in Hirael & Bangor. I tried contacting the Caernarfon Record Office for more information but the researcher was unable to assist with any records or deeds from that time. Research is awkward & expensive as I live so far away. Were you able to research the crew lists from the Anglesey record office or did you find them in London?
Heather
-
Hi Heather
I have not yet read Ships and Seamen of Anglesey in detail but a copy is waiting for me at the Caird Library which I am planning to visit at the end of next week when I will also be looking at some crew lists for the Margaret and Ann which they have managed to retrieve for me. (But thanks for the offer to look him up in your copy).
I went to the Anglesey Records Office to look at the crew lists for the Margaret and Ann held there.
Like you, I live quite a distance from North Wales but I am beginning to realise that I will not be able to find out much more about this side of the family unless I visit the Caernarfon Records Office and the Bangor University archives. One day!
I know that Roberts is a very common surname, like all the Welsh surnames alas, but I have found myself wondering about Samuel's grandmother, Catherine Roberts, and the fact that Zacharias Roberts was a witness at Samuel's marriage. Do you know whether your branch of the Roberts family had any Anglesey links?
Cherrian
-
Hi Cherrian
Re: possible Anglesey connections for the Roberts. Not that I know of at the moment. Elizabeth had several brothers & sisters all mentioned in the 1842 will of her father. I've been trying to find them all in the 1851 census but it is an uphill battle! ADDED Not helped by the fact he left them each a house with no address just numbered and he does not mention their husbands - only their children's names ::)
What age was your Catherine and what was her father's name and occupation? do you have her on previous censuses?
Did you know that your Samuel is listed on Reg Davies' Welsh Mariner's database site? Apparently there are records at Kew and it gives his ticket number etc.
Basically I got the brush off from Caernarfon RO regarding anything to do with maritime connections. Haven't tried the Uni yet.
Heather
-
Hi Heather
Catherine Roberts was born around 1747 but I do not know where or who her parents were. She married William Hughes (as evidenced by a lawsuit against the pair of them in 1778 when they were living at Pen Slates, Llaneilian, Anglesey). I have not managed to trace a parish record of her birth or their marriage.
When Catherine Roberts died in 1841 (just after the 1841 census - on 9 June), she rather surprisingly (given the low value of her belongings) left a will leaving everything to her daughter Catherine. The inventory amounted to her purse and apparel, furniture, one cow, one heifer, one sheep and one lamb which together were valued at £14 8s 0s! As far as I know, she and William had other children but I don't know what happened to them.
It is probably no more than coincidence that Zachariah has the same surname as Samuel's grandmother. He did however give Samuel his first opportunity to be a master of a boat, signed his application for a master's certificate (which I traced to the National Maritime Museum thanks to Reg Davies Welsh Mariners Index) and was present at his wedding. Another Roberts, Samuel Roberts this time, signed the application for Samuel's father in law's application for a master's certificate.
How very frustrating for you that there are no addresses given in your will. I went to Bangor last year and found the house that Samuel Hughes Griffith and his family had lived in - at least I think so. It had the right name and was in the right place, and I have a vague memory of being walked up the hill from Bangor to Garth Point by my nan in order to see it when I was about 9 or 10. It has an amazing view of the Straits and Port Penrhyn. Chilly and damp though especially in the winter.
I recall that Zachariah Roberts was baptised in the Calvinistic Methodist chapel at Llanllechid. There is a Calvinistic Methodist streak in Samuel Griffith's family too. His youngest daughter, Lizzie Miriam, married David Thomas at the Tabernacle Chapel in Bangor in 1891 (though I don't know which one - I gather the main chapel at this time was in Dean Street but there were other smaller sister chapels dotted around Bangor) and their first child, my nan, was born in the Carneddi School House, Llanllechid - which I did not manage to seek out last year sadly.
I wish you luck with finding your houses. I would like to find out more about Samuel Hughes Griffith's house - how it got built, who paid for it, that sort of thing, but I'm not sure where to start. Any ideas?
Cherrian
-
Hi Cherrian
Have you tried this site about Bangor?
http://www.bangorcivicsociety.org.uk/index.htm
You could also try the Caernarfon Record Office, Uni of Bangor, Archives Network Wales?
You could try a search on the North Wales Marriage Index for Catherine Roberts & William Hughes - might get the year and parish for further research?
I've looked through Robert Roberts will again so see if your Samuel is mentioned. He wrote the will in 1829 but did not die until January 1843. He mentions three children Thomas, Zacariah and Margaret. Have no luck tracing Thomas but FROM REREADING the will have just discovered Margaret married a Richard Williams who was most likely the Mariner who owned 50% of the EMILY along with Zacariah, according to the Port of Beaumaris book! (Margaret was the executrix of her father's will and described as Margaret wife of Richard Williams!) Thank you for the inspiration :D I see from the records that Richard died in 1852 and Margaret in 1859 I will have to do more digging ;D
Heather
-
Hi Heather
Thanks for link to Bangor Civic Society. Great site.
Re Robert Roberts. I did another IGI search on parents R R and Ann Pierce and tried both Llanllechid and Bangor Calvinistic Methodist chapels. To my surprise, Zachariah and sister Margaret show up in both. And a third sister - Ann - shows up in Bangor only. Might Thomas be Ann's husband?
Cherrian
-
Might Thomas be Ann's husband?
Cherrian
I suppose anything is possible. Robert & Anne married in 1810. There is also a Maurice Roberts baptised April 8, 1816. So I think both he and Ann did not survive. Have checked Llandygai and Pentir burials but nothing shows up there. So they must be buried at Bangor or they were just not in the will. More likely dead though as RR appears to be trying to portion out everything equally.
Something else has occurred to me. In 1841 Zachariah is a "shop man". In 1851 he is a "Linen Draper" . There is a Thomas Roberts who was a draper mentioned as a share owner and also listed in several of the Bangor trade directories. I'll have to find him on the censuses to check out his age. Perhaps he is the missing Thomas?
I found Richard Williams listed on Reg Davies siteborn 1816 - died at Bangor 1852 (only age 36). Also a listing for a First mate Robert Williams - 2mths old in 1841 - who was apparently the son of Margaret & Richard. He and mother Margaret are next door to Zachariah & his mother Anne at Roberts Square in 1841 and 1851. Reg states that he was the son of mariner Richard Williams of Hirael and the grandson of a Thomas Williams. Not sure where he found that out. He says he was listed at Garth Street Bangor in 1876 but I haven't found him on the 1881.
Such a shame the Gale free newspaper access is finished. Wish I had discovered more of this while I still had access!
Heather
-
Hi Heather
The Gale database is a new one to me but it looks really useful - glad you mentioned it. I have written to the publishers to find out whether and where it can be accessed by individuals.
I have a trip to Colindale on my research to do list, although it may not happen for a while. Is there anything in particular you want to know from local newspapers?
Eryl
Have now heard back from publishers and the database is available at the British Library and the Guildhall Library in the City of London.
-
Hi Cherrian/Eryl
I will have to ask the Gale press if there is access at a library here in Vancouver. Perhaps they will have another online free access period eventually. The decades of North Wales Chronicle newspapers alone were an absolute gem to read. They form part of the British Library collection.
Thank you very much for offering to look at local newspapers etc. but I can't think of anything specific at the moment - other than the death of Capt Richard Williams Mar 23, 1852. Since he died at only 36 it would be interesting to learn if the death was accidental or natural cause.
I was able to find the obits/notices for my 3x great grandparents John & Eleanor Roberts (uncle & aunt of Zachariah) and their daughter, my 2x great gm Elizabeth Roberts/Davies/Jones(!) as well as the marriage of their grandson, my great grandfather David Davies so consider myself very fortunate to get that far. I'm not sure but I think I did check for Zachariah at the time - in any event I didn't find anything. Always difficult to tell for sure when searching databases in case the spelling or dates are off which can end with a nil result even though the info is there somewhere!
I just thoroughly enjoyed being able to discover snippets like the fashion segment in the same edition as my great grandparents marriage was announced in 1859 - enabled one to visualize the event somehow.
Heather
-
Hi Heather
I'll be going to the Guildhall next Wednesday and will check out the Gale database.
As a matter of interest, was John Roberts the brother of Robert Roberts? Is that the link? Do you know who their parents were? On the Zachariah front, his name seems to appear in a slightly variant form just about every time it crops up, which makes searching for him tricky.
I'm looking forward to seeing the NWC now - you've whetted my appetite with your comments!
Cherrian (aka Eryl!)
-
Hi Cherrian/Eryl
I will send you a PM (personal message)
Heather
-
Hi Heather
I've just been browsing this evening and came upon your correspondence re Groeslon. Griffith Humphrey of Lon Isa is my 4 x grandfather. I am descended via his son Humphrey Griffith who married Grace Roberts in 1824. Their daughter, Ellin Griffith married Rees Williams. What is your connection? I look forward to hearing from you.
Rhiannon
-
Hi Heather
I've just been browsing this evening and came upon your correspondence re Groeslon. Griffith Humphrey of Lon Isa is my 4 x grandfather. I am descended via his son Humphrey Griffith who married Grace Roberts in 1824. Their daughter, Ellin Griffith married Rees Williams. What is your connection? I look forward to hearing from you.
Rhiannon
-
Hello Rhiannon :)
Sorry I missed your first post :-[
My grandmother was Catherine Thomas (1888-1968).
Her mother was Mary Jane Griffiths (1963-1928)
Mary Jane's parents were John Griffiths (1833-1909) & Elizabeth Williams.
John Griffiths' parents were Richard Griffiths (1797-1877) & Elizabeth Williams.
Richard was elder brother to your Humphrey :)
I guess this means we are ? cousins!
Heather