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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: DuncanFauvel on Friday 25 April 08 12:59 BST (UK)
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Hey all,
I've been doing some research into my family history, but I've hit a bit of a brick wall.
My GGG Grandfather, William Archer, has proved very difficult to place. I had a record of him as a 79 yr old living in Peckham in the 1901 census, which would place his birthdate c.1822. Unfortunately I lost the record, but I wrote down that he listed his birthplace as 'Cradleigh/Crudleigh, Herefordshire' which I believe is CRADLEY? I also believe he was a Greengrocer at some point, as I remember seeing this as his occupation later in life somewhere on the records.
He married a lady named 'Emma Foyle' from Wiltshire and they had 7 children (I believe) one of whom was my GG Grandfather, Charles Archer.
What I'd ideally like to know is who his parents/family were, and when/why he moved to London!
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Duncan.
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Just some more info:
I believe their first child was a boy who they named William (naturally) and his birth is listed as 1849, Peckham. The son's full name was William E Archer.
I'm not sure if this is of any help, but it illustrates they must have moved to London prior to this date.
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Here they are in 1871:
Camberwell, Surrey
William Archer, head, age 49, Greengrocer, born Crudley, herefordshire
Emma, wife, 46, Wilts, Westbury
George, son 14, born Camberwell
Thomas 12,
Elizabeth, 10
William, 3
All born Camberwell so you know that they moved before the mid 1850s.
Jen
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And 1861:
Camberwell, 11 East Surrey Grove
William Archer, 38, Greengrocer, Herts, Crudley
Emma, 35, Wilts, Westbury
William, 12, son, Peckham, Surrey
Charles, 10
John 7,
George,4
Thomas,2
Elizabeth 7months
Mary Foyle, visitor, unmarried, 39, Wilts, Westbury
So now you know that they were in Surrey before 1851!
Jen
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And 1861:
Camberwell, 11 East Surrey Grove
William Archer, 38, Greengrocer, Herts, Crudley
Emma, 35, Wilts, Westbury
William, 12, son, Peckham, Surrey
Charles, 10
John 7,
George,4
Thomas,2
Elizabeth 7months
Mary Foyle, visitor, unmarried, 39, Wilts, Westbury
So now you know that they were in Surrey before 1851!
Jen
Thank you! I believe that was the record I had lost. So in fact his birthplace was listed in 2 different counties?! It seems there are two villages by the name 'Cradley'? I remember now I had assumed that Emma's surname was Foyle, due the the visiting Mary Foyle who I had assumed was her sister.
So perhaps I have been searching in the wrong county altogether...
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Just found them in 1851, wrongly transcribed as Arcker.
5, Park Place, Lambeth
William Archer, 28, Grocer, Hereford, Crudley
Emma, 28, Wilts, Westbury
William, 2 Surrey, Lambeth
Charles, 1month, "
I will double check to see if I have given you the wrong county of birth on the 1861 - I thought it read Herts but that could just be me.
Jen
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Hi again,
1861 definitely says Herts but as '51 and '71 are clearly Herefordshire, I should take it that Herts is just a mistake.
Jen
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Just found them in 1851, wrongly transcribed as Arcker.
5, Park Place, Lambeth
William Archer, 28, Grocer, Hereford, Crudley
Emma, 28, Wilts, Westbury
William, 2 Surrey, Lambeth
Charles, 1month, "
I will double check to see if I have given you the wrong county of birth on the 1861 - I thought it read Herts but that could just be me.
Jen
Marvellous, thank you! You've been very helpful - I'm not very well versed in finding this type of information, so your help is very much appreciated.
As you say, I think Herts seems a mistake. This is the brick wall for me though, as I've never managed to get beyond their London census records. Even a further 10 years before would be very useful.
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I can find no record, so far, of William marrying Emma Foyle in any county. The only Emma Foyle of the right age in 1841, isn't in Westbury but that doesn't really matter, it could still be her. But I think your best bet would be to send for your GG grandfather Charles's birth certificate, which will give you a definite maiden name for his mother. If you are basing the Foyle surname on that one census return, you could be on the wrong track altogether. I think that if Mary Foyle had been related to the family, it would have said "sister-in-law" on the form. Maybe she was a friend or a cousin? Or do you know for certain that Emma was a Foyle?
Jen
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I have found a marriage in Surrey, 1846, for a William Archer with a possible wife, Emma Scott.
Dec 1846, Newington, vol4/page 417
In 1841, there is a Scott family, in Westbury, Wiltshire, with a daughter named Emma aged 16.
Are we getting closer do you think?
Jen
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I can find no record, so far, of William marrying Emma Foyle in any county. The only Emma Foyle of the right age in 1841, isn't in Westbury but that doesn't really matter, it could still be her. But I think your best bet would be to send for your GG grandfather Charles's birth certificate, which will give you a definite maiden name for his mother. If you are basing the Foyle surname on that one census return, you could be on the wrong track altogether. I think that if Mary Foyle had been related to the family, it would have said "sister-in-law" on the form. Maybe she was a friend or a cousin? Or do you know for certain that Emma was a Foyle?
Jen
No, I don't know for certain, it was probably just a foolish assumption :-\ I wouldn't have associated the surname 'Foyle' with my family, so it's very possible she was just a visiting friend... until quite recently I had no knowledge of Emma, so her surname is a complete mystery to me.
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I have found a marriage in Surrey, 1846, for a William Archer with a possible wife, Emma Scott.
Dec 1846, Newington, vol4/page 417
In 1841, there is a Scott family, in Westbury, Wiltshire, with a daughter named Emma aged 16.
Are we getting closer do you think?
Jen
That sounds very much more likely than my assumed 'Foyle'...
Could you post the details of the Scott family? I have Emma's birthdate listed as 1825, so it would certainly match in age AND location. It seems that this could be a great match! and an excellent piece of detective work by yourself, I must say. Thank you.
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You know that 1841 only says yes or no to county of birth and is not accurate on ages of anyone over the age of 15?
Well - 1841 has a William Archer, butcher's apprentice, aged 16, in Buckinghamshire but not born in county. This could be yours, on his way to being a grocer in Surrey. He seems to have had a much younger child, Alfred Archer, aged 2, living at the same address, which was the household of the master butcher. No other Archers at this address.
Just a thought - don't take it for gospel.
I will post the Scott information later as I have to go and do something far less fun - shopping!
Jen
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You know that 1841 only says yes or no to county of birth and is not accurate on ages of anyone over the age of 15?
Well - 1841 has a William Archer, butcher's apprentice, aged 16, in Buckinghamshire but not born in county. This could be yours, on his way to being a grocer in Surrey. He seems to have had a much younger child, Alfred Archer, aged 2, living at the same address, which was the household of the master butcher. No other Archers at this address.
Just a thought - don't take it for gospel.
I will post the Scott information later as I have to go and do something far less fun - shopping!
Jen
That sounds very possible. These are the children (of William Archer) that I'm aware of:
William E Archer b. 1849
Charles Archer b.1851 (My GG Grandfather)
John Archer b.1854
George Archer b.1857
Thomas Archer b.1859
Elizabeth Archer b.1861
William Archer b.1868
So that would put Alfred a good 30 years younger than the last-born William, which would be quite astonishing! Although I guess a difference in sibling ages that great was not highly unusual during that era.
I think that you may well have found him. The transition between Butcher's Apprentice and Greengrocer would've been a relatively obvious one, and Bucks is no great distance from Surrey...
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Sorry, I think I have misled you. There is no relationship given between William and Alfred on the 1841 census, just a shared surname. I have assumed that Alfred, born around 1839, is the younger brother of William, born 1822ish, so there would only be a fourteen year gap between them.
If these are your Archers, maybe their parents were dead and they are in the household of another family member - who knows. I will send you the full details so that you have all the information available.
Jen
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Sorry, I think I have misled you. There is no relationship given between William and Alfred on the 1841 census, just a shared surname. I have assumed that Alfred, born around 1839, is the younger brother of William, born 1822ish, so there would only be a fourteen year gap between them.
If these are your Archers, maybe their parents were dead and they are in the household of another family member - who knows. I will send you the full details so that you have all the information available.
Jen
No worries, I realised afterwards what you meant! I think all these names are starting to erode my brain! I'd quite like to find out further information about this 'Alfred' as there may be some further clues there.
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Found a baptism for a William Archer in the BVRI
7th January 1823, Cradley, Herefordshire
son of John Archer and Sarah
and this marriage in the index
John Archer and Sarah Taylor 11th November 1819, Cradley
Will look for siblings of William
Regards
Susan :)
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William Archer
Male
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Event(s):
Birth: 28 DEC 1822 Cradley, Hereford, England
WILLIAM ARCHER
Male
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Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 07 JAN 1823 Cradley, Hereford, England
I'm pretty sure this is him... his parents are also listed as John Archer & Sarah, although there is no surname listed for Sarah.
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Found a baptism for a William Archer in the BVRI
7th January 1823, Cradley, Herefordshire
son of John Archer and Sarah
and this marriage in the index
John Archer and Sarah Taylor 11th November 1819, Cradley
Will look for siblings of William
Regards
Susan :)
haha excellent, we posted the same info at almost exactly the same time! :) Great minds think alike and all that. Thank you!
and it appears Sarah DOES have a surname. Excellent.
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Ok, here goes with the 1841 census possiblities:
Westbury, Wiltshire: ( This entry is not very clear so I am putting what I believe it says)
Jos. Scott, 55, Clothing Maker/Worker, born in county
Sarah, 40, Weaver, " "
Emma, 15 " "
Ann, 14
Richd,10
F****, 1 week ( can't read this name at all, sorry)
So this just might be your Emma who married William Archer in 1846.
And could this be William with younger brother, Alfred, also in 1841, in Buckinghamshire
Richard Lidington, 35, butcher b.i.c.
Ann, 65 "
Harriet,35 not born in county
Ann, 12 " 2
Sarah, 10 b.i.c.
Elizabeth,9 "
William,7 "
Mary,5 "
Catharine,3 "
James Cave, 20 Butcher I (?) " (maybe it's a J, for journeyman)
William Archer, 16, Butcher App, not born in county
Alfred Archer, 2 " "
Ann Dixon, 16, Servant " "
Alice Shillington, 15 " b.i.c.
What isn't quite clear on this is whether there is a change of household after Catharine (aged 3) and before James Cave. But I can't imagine that a twenty year old butcher would have an apprentice and two servants and Ancestry has it as one large household so I'm going with that.
I still think your best bet is to spend the seven quid on GG Grandfather Charles's birth certificate. You will then know for certain what Emma's maiden name was. If it was Scott, you can then send for the marriage certificate of Emma and William and that will give you both of their fathers' names and occupations. Otherwise we are in the realms of supposition, which could be absolutely fine but which could easily be totally wrong.
Jen
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Here's William's siblings christenings all Cradley
Susannah 6th February 1820
John 25th September 1825
Jane 4th November 1827
Mary 6th August 1832
Richard 31st December 1834
Charles 17th May 1840
As there was one born 1840 this family should be in the 1841 census.
Looking in the BVRI there were Archers in Cradley in the 1600s!
Susan :)
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1841
HO107/424 Book 10 folio 17 page 6
Pound Bridge, East and West Cradley
John Archer 40 Ag. Lab. Y (Y = Yes born in county)
Sarah Archer 40 - Y
Charles Archer 1 - Y
and next door - a brother perhaps?
Thomas Archer 40 Ag. Lab. Y
Ann Archer 40 - Y
Thomas Archer 10 - Y
Jane Archer 6 - Y
Susan :)
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I still think your best bet is to spend the seven quid on GG Grandfather Charles's birth certificate. You will then know for certain what Emma's maiden name was. If it was Scott, you can then send for the marriage certificate of Emma and William and that will give you both of their fathers' names and occupations. Otherwise we are in the realms of supposition, which could be absolutely fine but which could easily be totally wrong.
Jen
Thank you. I think the Scott's definitely seem a good match. I'm going to do as you advise and send off for Charles' birth ceritificate.
I find this very interesting:
Jos. Scott, 55, Clothing Maker/Worker
Sarah, 40, Weaver
as there has been a history of clothing/textiles in my family. In fact, William's son, Charles Archer (my GG Grandfather) was I believe heavily involved in the clothing trade - as a clothing wholesale clerk. Perhaps it could have been his grandparent's influence, if the Scotts are placed correctly.
I think the Archers link may be more tenuous, and I'm swinging more towards the other family we've uncovered. It seems the dates and places match up more.
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Back a generation
William Archer and Susannah
christenings all Cradley
Richard 21st July 1795
John 30th April 1797
Ann 21st February1799
Thomas 18th May 1800
William 9th December 1802
Do you want me to carry on? I see some are on the IGI as well as BVRI
Susan :)
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Here's William's siblings christenings all Cradley
Susannah 6th February 1820
John 25th September 1825
Jane 4th November 1827
Mary 6th August 1832
Richard 31st December 1834
Charles 17th May 1840
As there was one born 1840 this family should be in the 1841 census.
Looking in the BVRI there were Archers in Cradley in the 1600s!
Susan :)
Brilliant, THANK YOU! I can believe there were Archers there that early; it seems there's a tradition of Archers in Hereford. I'll have to keep note of all these names so I can put them in the tree once they're clarified. I have to say it seems pretty damn likely that they're the right family. There can't have been many Archers in Cradley, and with the dates matching it seems almost perfect.
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Back a generation
William Archer and Susannah
christenings all Cradley
Richard 21st July 1795
John 30th April 1797
Ann 21st February1799
Thomas 18th May 1800
William 9th December 1802
Do you want me to carry on? I see some are on the IGI as well as BVRI
Susan :)
So these are the siblings of John Archer, presumed father to my William Archer?
I would greatly appreciate if you continued to help me. I can't thank you enough, this is all excellent.
Were William and Susannah the parents of John?
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I think I'm doing fairly well myself now - there seems to be a definite Archer family in Cradley in the 18th century; in fact I can only find really 1 family of that surname in the town prior to the turn of the century. I've managed to trace them back to the late 17th Century so far (a lot of Johns and Williams has made it very confusing) but it's starting to unfold a bit more I think!
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I think I'm doing fairly well myself now -
A great feeling of achievement when you find details yourself - if you need any further help please shout!
William and Susannah were the parents of John 1797; have been looking for a marriage to get Susannah's maiden name but, as yet, haven't found one in the resources I have.
Regards
Susan :)
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Cheers Susan, it really has been a great help to me. I never would have been able to progress so easily without the help of you both!
The next mystery is an 'Edward Warren', my GGG Grandfather on another side, who I believe was born in Poole, Dorset (this was put as his birthplace on the one census record of him I can find).
He was father to Augustus (GG Grandfather) and 3 daughters, that I know of - Eliza, Elizabeth and Adelisa. The information stops at him and his birth, c.1806.
It's really puzzling me as I can find no information. There are a few Edward Warren's in Marnhull at that time, but none match very well other than in name.
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Aha, I think on the advice of some others on the forum I have found him!
Childs Name Edward Davies WARREN Parents s.o James & Sarah Date 21 Mar 1802 Parish Poole St James