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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: mwelsh50 on Monday 09 June 08 14:00 BST (UK)
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Hi,
When the 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queens Bays) were stationed at Manchester Cavalry Barracks between December 1881 and Jul 1883, their condition deteriorated considerably. Why was this?
During inspections at Manchester, the Generals made comments like " the Regiment has had many drawbacks to contend with".
When they moved on to Aldershot, the next review noted that the Regiment was "evidently improving under Lt-Col Lee since it has been at Aldershot".
Why did Manchester have such an effect on the Queens Bays? My G-Grandfather also caught syphilis (!) during his posting here. Was it a bit of a nasty neighbourhood?
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I can't answer your question mwelsh50 but heres a little background !! :)
Central Library have got photos on their website ..... just plug in Hulme barracks !
http://www.images.manchester.gov.uk/
Bursey found this a while ago from the Alan Godfrey Maps
Hulme Barracks was opened in 1817 as a cavalry barracks and covered 11 acres.
Some of the regiments stationed there were
15th Hussars (Peterloo massacre 16 Aug 1819).
11th Hussars (aka the Cherry Pickers)
2nd Heavy Dragoons (Scots Greys)
14th Light Dragoons (14th Hussars)
7th Dragoon Guards (Black Horse)
17th Lancers (Duke of Cambidge's)
The barracks closed and was demolished in 1914
Annie :)
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In the 19th century there was an outcry on the insanitary conditions of the armed forces accommodation (some things never change eh?).
Disease and ruined buildings were to the fore. Even after Flo Nightingale, the case of Insanitary Barracks caused questions in Parliament.
More soldiers died of disease than on the battlefields up until the formation of the RAMC just prior to the Boer War, and even after then, nasties were rife.
Even when I was an infantry junior rank we were always moved into naff barracks, as we were known for our [prowess in clearing them up!
Anyway...It was in Manchester...How insanitary can you get?? ;D ;D ;D
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My gggrandmother Olive Syncock ( Simcock) married Lawrence Anthony 5th Dragoon guards in Manchester Collegiate Church ( now the Cathedral) in Feb1835. Lawrence died 1837 and Olive then married my gggrandfather also a soldier in 5th Dragoon Guards. They were married Feb 1838 again in Manchester Collegiate Church. At the time of her second marriage they were living 39 Queen Street Hulme.
As the 5th Dragoon guards were a cavalry regiment, I presume both her husbands were stationed at Hulme Barracks.
Both of her marriages were in Manchester Cathedral, who were very helpful in helping to search for the 1835 marriage certificate.
I cannot find the family anywhere in 1841 census.
does anyone know where the regiment was in 1841 if not in Manchester.
Angela.
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hi
i am trying to find out about my ancestor he was augustus ellery born east indies 1856 and was lance corporal in the chorlton county barracks in hulme in 1881, his wife emily ellery.
i am unsure what regiment this is from and have not had much luck fidning out much else?
i am unsure how or when he died as well any help would be great
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Based upon the officers (on page one of the census) he was in the 18th Hussars. They returned from India on 18 January 1876. At the end of 1883 they were in Dublin.
If his service papers survive they will be in series WO97 in Kew. If you cannot get to Kew, Findmypast will be putting them online by 2011. If he died in service they would routinely destroy his papers 20 years later.
But you will certainly find him in the musters at Kew - in WO16 after about 1876. These will tell you where he was on the first of each month. Starting with April 1881 you can trace him forwards and backwards. His first and last entry should give his place of birth, age on enlistment etc. Musters of this time also recorded wife's forename and the ages of any children. His last entry should also give you his intended residence (unless he died).
This might help - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
What is the last sighting of him, and the first of Emily as a widow?
Ken
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thanks ken this is very helpful, i am in nz but have past this on to my sister in hope she can get to look up the national archives etc. its good at least to understand more about him appreciate your help
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Hi Again
Have you seen the 1891 Census? Augustus is alive, but with a new wife 'Charlotte M A'.
Ken
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i did this is where i first started and then found emily, but they seem to have same children so unsure if this is a anme she was known by? appreciate your help though. i can't seem to find anymore information on either, i have found charlotte died in 1901, but unable to find emily.
thanks keep it coming if any clues thanks again
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Hulme Cavalry Barracks from a report in 1861.
These barracks of regulation accommodation for 423 men, including non-commissioned officers. They are situated at the outskirts of Hulme; but on three sides of the parallelogram occupied by the barracks, there is a densely built neighbourhood of houses and factories, coming close to the boundary walls; and on one side only is the barrack yard open to the fields.
The stables of the barrack-rooms built over them, and extend along about half each of the long sides of the longer sides of the parallelogram, within a few yards of the boundary wall.
Immediately outside the boundary wall on one side, and overlooking the barracks, is a large lofty mill, which interferes with the free circulation of air on that side; and over the boundary wall behind the opposite range of barracks-rooms our narrow streets of small cottage houses with double ranges of ash-pits, privies and cesspools.
Between them, and all these nuisances the air, which supplies the barrack-rooms on that side has to pass.
A third side of the parallelogram is occupied by the canteen, riding house etc. Within the parallelogram at the same end is a line of buildings in which are placed the officers' quarters, workshops, schools, libraries etc.
The hospital is situated close to these buildings. behind each range of barracks is in narrow ill-paved, and defectively drained passage, across which immediately under the Barrack windows, are the litter sheds.
An open ash-pit and sergeants' privy are situated in the same line as the litter sheds. The space left between the boundary wall at the barracks is much too small, either for the health or convenience.
These arrangements are by no means conductive to the healthiness of the barracks; but they cannot now be altered without obtaining possession of ground outside the boundary wall, which in our opinion, It would be very advisable to do so,if it could be accomplished.
The soldiers latrines kitchens etc, are situated in separate buildings on the same line as the barracks.
The large central square, is an equally divided by temporary wooden stables, extending across it, and nearly in its centre is a large and well built ablution house,a water tank, baths,foot pans,basins etc.
The permanent buildings are all of brick, they were built in 1793, the soldiers barracks were rebuilt in 1829 and the officers quarters in 1841,the ground occupied by the whole establishment is 7 acres 1 rood in area,and consists of gravel and clay.
It is on the same level and possesses the same natural means of drainage, as the surrounding district.
There are, in all 40 soldiers rooms and 12 Sgt rooms in the barracks three of the latter are however misappropriate soldiers rooms, which has been found necessary to take from the men's accommodation, on account of the deficiency in non-commissioned officers quarters.
The rooms are already stated, are over the stables and very objectionable arrangement . Half of the rooms face towards the barrack Square and half towards the boundary wall.
Between the two ranges of rooms is the usual long narrow, badly lighted unventilated wooden corridor with doors opening right and left into the soldiers rooms close to the fireplaces.
These corridors are however much superior in one respect to those in most other cavalry barracks, from having shafts the whole breadth of the corridor carried at intervals to the roof where a large skylight is placed to admit light but for want of ventilation which could easily be supplied at the skylights. This smell in the corridors at night is stated to be at times most sickening.
The barrack rooms are of all size and they contain ten men each with a cubic space of 494 feet per man.
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Plans of Barracks (Hulme) you are looking at (A Officers Rooms) & (B Soldiers rooms over the Stables)
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The above information about the Hulme barracks is very interesting.
Can anyone please tell me which regiment was stationed at the barracks at census time in 1861? My gr.grandfather appears to have served there as a soldier. I wish to try to confirm if the name appearing on the census is indeed that of my gr. grandfather. The regiment is not mentioned on the census sheet.
I have tried The National Archives records described in an earlier posting but the relevant part is apparently undergoing digitalisation and will not be available on-line until 2011.
Thank you in advance
Mike in Denmark
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Hello Ken,
I read with interest your assistance in tracing a soldier for a previous writer and wondered whether you could offer me some similar advice. My grandfather, John Healy bn 1833 Dunleer, Co Louth was a private in the 4th Dragoon Guards. He was stationed in the Cavalry Barracks Hulme in 1871 with his wife and family.
I would like to find out a) when and where he enlisted, b) how long he served for, c) when and where was he was discharged. Could you point me in the right direction to find the answers to these questions?
Many thanks, Brimay
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I am trying to determine whether there was a public house in Queens St, Hulme, called 'The Queen's Bays' as I believe my ggrandfather, Richard Lord, was the publican. Can anybody help?
Thanks very much,
Kim
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It may be of interest to note that the rather grand house which used to be the officers' quarters at Hulme Barracks is still standing (at Jan. 2011). It stands on Princess Street, Hulme and is number 10 at the end of the street. It is currently converted to provide rented flats. It is the only original building to survive on Princess Street street (which runs parallel to Barrack Street). My great grandfather Joe Willie Broadhead used to live at number 17 on the other side of the street next to the Cornbrook Orphanage at numbers 19-23.
Princess Street and Barrack Street both terminated at the Barracks grounds. On Barrack Street there were the rows of terraced houses which used to provide accommodation for the NCOs. There were two doors to each house, one leading to the upstairs flat and one for the downstairs one. These houses are still there. In the 60s-70s they were refurbished and now they are in use again as flats, still with those double doors. Plenty of images at www.images.manchester.gov.uk showing the barracks. The picture shows the house in 1959, before it was converted to flats.
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I have a death certificate for my great great grandmother and her husband was Lowis Kirkpatrick a soldier (foot) of Hulme, does this mean he was based at Hulme barracks, she died in Withington workhouse infirmary and on her burial records her address was 17 Philips street, Hulme was this close by the barracks
Lisa
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Do those death certificates say who was the Informant?
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Scouseboy Only the Master of the Union workhouse, Lisa
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Lisa
You don't give any dates - which would be useful.
I've had a quick look on an old map of Hulme. Phillips Street was the next street to Bonsall Street. A much changed Bonsall Street still exists, but Phillips Street disappeared when Hulme was cleared and re-developed in the 1960s. It was about a 20min. walk to the barracks which were on the other side of Stretford Road. However, there were a number of other army barracks in the area, so he could have been at one of those. The house numbers on Phillips Street went from 1 to 84. I can tell you that on the 1881 census, house number 17 was occupied by Henry Olroyd (a joiner) and his wife Ellen, plus children Elizabeth (3) and Thomas (1). They also had two lodgers, Mary and Alice Holland.
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Thanks TomUK, Lavinia Kirkpatrick died 1906 she married Lewis/Lowis Kirkpatrick in 1895, In the censuses she was living with her parents in Gorton, I just cant find Lewis, his parents were granite merchants on Hyde road, someone did find a Lewis in a Scottish regiment but i have a feeling its not right
Lisa