RootsChat.Com
Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: Lolly2881 on Tuesday 10 June 08 18:08 BST (UK)
-
Hi, i have recently received a marriage cert for my great great grandad Edward Foster Bates abt1877, on it his father James William Bates is a Hotel Proprieter however, i am not able to find a solid lead in any uk census, i do not have full access on ancestry.co.uk only uk access, so i dont actually now if they went over or are even from there. Edward lived in the uk from 1901 onwards defo, his marriage was in Leyton, essex uk 1905.
I do not have anymore info on the father other than his name and occupation, if anyone can help it will be greatly appreciated, or if anyone else has the same problem and they sound familiar i would love to hear from you.
Many thanks
Lorraine
-
Where was Edward born, Lorraine?
-
I dont know, i have looked on Freebmd and there are 100s of edwards, there is one edward forster bates (spelt like that) born in Newcastle but im not sure its him.
-
Edward lived in the uk from 1901 onwards defo, his marriage was in Leyton, essex uk 1905
was he around for the 1901 census then ?
given the way you have worded that and the Subject line - was he in the USA ?
-
well i cant find him in the 1901 census but his first born son was born 1901 in edmonton (out of marriage) he also had a daughter in 1903 in edmonton. The family claim that they are his children, his son is Edward bates and his daughter was born with her mothers name Isabella Julia Style.
suspicious do you think?
-
sorry, I'm still not with you - do you think he came to the UK in 1901, or was he always here - and born here c1877 ?
:)
-
I have searched US Census, with no matches that I can see.
-
He and the lad should be on the 1901 England Census
Births Mar 1901
Bates Edward Albert Edmonton V3a P483
-
ok thank you both loads, I think i tried looking for both on 1901 but came up with nothing, because they are not married i think they either avoided it or maybe lied im not sure, i will try again.
Thank you both again
Lorraine x
-
Thats what i dont know The Newfster, I am not sure if he lived over here from birth to death or went over a came back, i have nothing, the family dont know much either he died of TB after WW1 1919 dont think he told the family much about his life.
The only real records i have of him is the marriage.
thnks
Lorraine
-
Can we rewind a little here ;D
So you have a marriage cert from 1905?
Is it Edward Foster Bates and Gertrude Isabella Style in West Ham ref 4a page 542 in the Jun 1/4?
Who were both their fathers,what jobs did they do,who were the witnesses and what age and addresses did the couple give.
Are they both single on marriage or was Gertrude married before- if you think the kids may not be his.
Regards
Carol
-
Marriage cert
twenty eighth april 1905
Edward Foster Bates 28 years Bachelor Occ: Gardener add: 120 Burchell Road, Leyton father: James William Bates father occ: Hotel Proprioter
Gertrude Isabella STyle 24 years Spinster add: 120 Burchell Road, Leyton father: Thomas Style father occ: Cabinet Maker
In the precence of: T. Thelford and A. Sayer
-
and his daughter was born with her mothers name Isabella Julia Style.
I assume this is the daughters name - not the mothers ? :D
Gertrude Isabella Style 24 years Spinster
cant see a birth entry with that full set of names .....
I can see a Gertrude E (might be Edith) visiting a West Ham address in 1901 - but she was born Stockwell .... and can be traced bacj to a father who is not Thomas.
Theres also an EDMONTON / Ponders End Gertrude around, but again her father isnt a Thomas.
-
I have suspicions about the 'fabrication' of Edwards fathers name ..... but Ms Styles may be a 'live un' ..... heres a Thomas and in the same district as she marries 25 years later - doubtful given the age etc that this man is her father, but could be related - often seen on Marriage Certs to give respectability .....
1881 - RG11/1728; Folio: 39; Page: 22 - Wanstead, West Ham
Wellesley Road
Thomas An. Styles 62 Widower Head Cabinet Manfr born Ramsgate
Mary Ann Styles 32 dau Hoxton
Next door is his brother Charles also a Cabinet Manufacturer
-
Strange that she cant be seen in 1901 ......... under any combo of Gertrude / Isabella etc ..... sadly Thomas et al have long gone.
-
Ah - what have we here ...
1901 - RG13/1251; Folio: 41; Page: 7 - Tottenham (Edmonton District)
57, Stonebridge Road
hard to read original surname as other than this, but could easily be a lazy B - and the other facts seem to support it.
Edward E Mates [sic] 23 Head GARDENER (own account) born Northumberland, Newcastle
Gertrude Mates 22 Wife London, Hoxton
Edward A Mater 6 weeks (ie 1Q1901 birth) Tottenham
William* Mater [sic] 21 Brother 'At Laager Brewery' Warwickshire, Stratford on Avon
* His PoB is an excellent example of how things get misinterpreted - see 1881 / 91 :P
-
So that Birth Index entry you found should probably be followed up:-
i have looked on Freebmd and there are 100s of edwards, there is one edward forster bates (spelt like that) born in Newcastle but im not sure its him.
-
Hi all :)
The Edward born Newcastle looked very likely to me - he's in Edmonton registration district on later census - however his father is James Stephen and not a Hotel proprietor :P
(1891: RG12/1080 58 6)
-
Well done Newfster - I must get you to look for some of mine ...
could easily be a lazy B
If you look at the B in brother and boarder on the same page, they are just the same as the B in Bates !
-
Well done Newfster - I must get you to look for some of mine ...
Seconded! 8)
-
How about this Bates family in 1881 ..... 2 years age diff twixt bros Edward and William - altho William born Stratford ESSEX ;)
RG11; Piece: 318; Folio: 122; Page: 42
same one Tati ?
-
OK - who can crack Gertrude tho 8)
-
You? :P
-
Younger than I'd have liked to see, and cant be found (yet :P ) in 1891 ..
Births Dec 1882
Styles Isabella Shoreditch Vol1c P61
covers Hoxton births ......
The Mary Ann, dau of Thomas in 1881 was born in Hoxton ......
-
Sorry i have not been on computer.
Gertrude i have,
Birth Cert:
Eighth September 1882 15 Wenlock Street Hoxton
Name:Isabella (no gertrude on cert)
sex: girl
Father: Thomas Styles
Mother: Isabella Styles formerly Price
father occ: Potman
Registered: Twenty Fourth October 1882.
I found her in 1891 also
Thomas Stile 35 Wid Potman Inn born Oxford
Isabella G Stile Dau 8 born Hoxton
Millicent M Stile Dau 4 d/o d/o
Street Addr 73 Paradise Road, Vauxhall, Lambeth
In the same address is the Hanscomb family, which Thomas Style sister Sarah Elizabeth has married into, so he is living with his sister.
In 1901 i cannot find Gertrude, but her sister Millicent is living with the Hanscomb family.
RG12/401 Folio 20 Page 34
-
In 1901 i cannot find Gertrude, but her sister Millicent is living with the Hanscomb family.
I think Newf found her ;)
1901 - RG13/1251; Folio: 41; Page: 7 - Tottenham (Edmonton District)
57, Stonebridge Road
Edward E Mates [sic] 23 Head GARDENER (own account) born Northumberland, Newcastle
Gertrude Mates 22 Wife London, Hoxton
Edward A Mater 6 weeks (ie 1Q1901 birth) Tottenham
William* Mater [sic] 21 Brother 'At Laager Brewery' Warwickshire, Stratford on Avon
-
Thanks everyone, I think you have cracked it at last.
I have had a cassette tape of stories narrated by my great uncle but so far i have not found any truth in the stories.
apparantly edward bates would not work for his father and wanted to be a gardener, but the story goes that his father was in the hotel business and wanted edwrd to go to america with him to make it there, but he wouldnt.
but my grandmother said that her grandmother was known for saying stories, she painted such a funny picture of her life, i think it was more for entertainment value than anything.
Thanks again x ;D
-
I had a look for Edward's parents and it seems at least his mother was bigamous :P
James Stephen marries Catherine Mary Hurworth in Mar 1885 (Edmonton)
Previously, Catherine Mary Hurworth married George John Rodgers (Dec 1867 St George in the East) who is well alive, now with wife Sarah, in 1881 and 1891 :P
-
really? I shall have a nose at that, i love the excitement when there is something unconventional going on.
Thank you Tati you made my day! ;D
-
The Gertrude / Isabella situation still has some wrinkles ?
Gertrude Isabella Style 24 years Spinster add: 120 Burchell Road, Leyton father: Thomas Style father occ: Cabinet Maker
Your 1891 find does looks good - name and PoB wise, but a Potman is a far cry from a Cabinet Maker. I'm sure theres a connection somehow to the Thomas Styles from Ramsgate, who had his family in Shoreditch / Hoxton, and ended his days in Wanstead / Leyton ..... ???
-
i Think the 1891 is right cause we now she has a sister Millicent younger than her, before thomas all the style family seem to be Watch makers, why he is not i dont know.
could they have lied on the marriage cert? because there is no hotel proprietor in the family so far either.
Apparantly, isabella gertrude was known for her tall tales when alive, so i am wondering if they might lie officially.
The story she potraid to the family was that her father died when she was 5 yrs old and that her mother left them in an orphanage to go back to her own country, but i have not found any evidence. She said he was a french polishing cabinet maker and in his spare time (as if he will have any back then) he used to break horses for rich people. She also said Edwards father was an hotelier in America and that he owned 2 hotels. She also said when she was in the orphanage she saw the last witch being burnt in london from her window, and she met Buffalo Bill in his fathers sweet shop in london. She also said that she used to make lovely Toffee's for the kids, and a neighbour asked for the recipe then the neighbours opened a shop and that their surname was Macintosh.
to me a lot of this is far fetched, I think she may have said this to entertain the kids as my nan was only young when she was alive.
What i do find odd is when she was alive she went with her son back to london and found the building that was the orphanage and is was a cooperative store today. So i dont know what to make of it.
thanks
Lorraine ???
-
I had a look for Edward's parents and it seems at least his mother was bigamous :P
James Stephen marries Catherine Mary Hurworth in Mar 1885 (Edmonton)
Previously, Catherine Mary Hurworth married George John Rodgers (Dec 1867 St George in the East) who is well alive, now with wife Sarah, in 1881 and 1891 :P
Just found something else quite fishy, George john rodgers is from Greenwhich, Kent. While catherine is from York, Yorkshire same as James could they have been young lovers or something. :o She has also left her son behind in 1881 Charles George how sad. :'(
-
Well, I think the last witch burning in England happened somewhere in the 17th century :P
As for her father dying when she was 5 ... you have found her on census with him age 8, haven't you?
This could be the same Thomas in 1901:
RG13/211 50 39
Hackney, London
22 Olenda Rd
Thomas Stiles, boarder, wid, 41, (no occupation shown), b. Oxford
in the household of a Henry Skonner(?), Ag lab & family.
-
thats what i mean there is no factual data to back up her stories. ::)
-
im sure i have come across that skonner name somewhere, i need to look over my notes mmmm, thank you :D
-
She also said when she was in the orphanage she saw the last witch being burnt in london from her window
No witches were burnt in England, they were hanged. Witches bodies were burnt in Scotland after they were killed by hanging.
The last execution for witchcraft in England was of Alice Molland in Exeter, 1684.
Bless her, she obviously had a great imagination for story telling.