RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 22 July 08 11:35 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt....and it's Frederickays turn.....I think you might find this one a little difficult, but hopefully not too difficult.
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
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I have a lot of info most census etc on my family Major Charles Jones 15th Hussars and his paramour Lavinia De Irujo.
So, in particular I am looking for Major Charles Jones birth, parents, first wife and family home. He was born around or on 7th Nov or Dec 1783. He is in the Times dying in Jan 1843 as aged "about 60 " He may have been from the Stratford, Colne area in Essex or Suffolk.
1st marriage was to unknown relative of Lord Braybrooke who was also niece of Provost of Eaton. He then married Charlotte Annesley (daughter of Alex Annesley of Hyde Hall ) in 1818.
He was at Corunna and Waterloo and was aide de camp to Duke of Cumberland. I have asked people to try and interpret his "arms " I am interested in letters, books and articles or his army history in detail.
He also was father of Ernest Jones Chartist.
Secondly in particular I am looking for Baptism of Lavinia Frederica Jutsum nee Irujo and her sister Frances Augusta Clifton. They were born between 1816 and 1821.
Their mother was Lavinia de Irujo. They lived most of their lives in the Chelsea, Brompton area. In 1839 Frances was in Gloucester Place and in 1866 she was in China with the Superindent of Police Samuel Clifton as her husband.
I'm interested again in any books, links, letters or history. I am happy to do the research if pointed to right links and sites .
Thanks .
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书标号
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;D ;D
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thats book marking in Chinese simp. ;D
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I figured......... ;) ;)
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Blimey This one looks hard ;D ;D ;D ;D
Whats wrong Toni your a bit slow off the mark this week :) :)
Sue
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Hi,
My first posting on this Hunt ( or any) so please excuse if I ask the obvious :)
Do you have a copy of Lavinias will from 1866? Found someone else researching this family , is it you Frederickays??
Trish
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i am at work Sue
Provost of Eaton
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45401
Latimer Neville (6th Lord Baron of Braybrooke)
http://thepeerage.com/p2692.htm
Barons Braybrooke (1788)
John Griffin Griffin, 4th Baron Howard de Walden, 1st Baron Braybrooke (d. 1797)
Richard Griffin, 2nd Baron Braybrooke (1750-1825)
Richard Griffin, 3rd Baron Braybrooke (1783-1858)
Richard Cornwallis Neville, 4th Baron Braybrooke (1820-1861)
Charles Cornwallis Neville, 5th Baron Braybrooke (1823-1902)
Latimer Neville, 6th Baron Braybrooke (1827-1904)
Henry Neville, 7th Baron Braybrooke (1855-1941)
Richard Henry Cornwallis Neville, 8th Baron Braybrooke (1918-1943)
Henry Seymour Neville, 9th Baron Braybrooke (1897-1990)
Robin Henry Charles Neville, 10th Baron Braybrooke (b. 1932)
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not sure these ar eentirely relevant
from TNA:~
Foreign Office: Political Departments: General Correspondence from 1906-1966&nbs...
Attack on Senor Manuel de Irujo in the "Sunday Times" . Attack on Senor Manuel de Irujo in the "Sunday Times" Details of this piece are shown at items level Date: 1938.
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives William TEMPLE, Archbishop of Canterbury W.Temple 47, ff. 117-271
Director of Religious Broadcasting at the B.B.C. (f. 129); Manuel de Irujo, President of the Basque National Council (f. 146); Evelyn Emily Mary Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire (f. 152); James Edward Hubert Gascoyne-Cecil, 4th Marquess of Salisbury (ff. Date range: 1942 - 1943.
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
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Hi,
My first posting on this Hunt ( or any) so please excuse if I ask the obvious :)
Do you have a copy of Lavinias will from 1866? Found someone else researching this family , is it you Frederickays??
Trish
Welcome to the Scavenger Hunts Trish.......I'm sure you'll enjoy them and hope you'll be a part of many more.
I don't think Frederickay will mind if I just let you know she's been rather poorly of late, so it might take a little while for her to come on board.......that's why I tried to put the Hunt on the boards early.....obviously not early enough.
Please have a little patience with this one.
Thanks
Barbara
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Dont know if this death helps, or if you have it already, not sure its even yours :) :)
March 1893 Frederica Lavinia Jutsum age 76 in Wandsworth
Vol 1d Page 410
Sue
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If what is in this article is true then we are going to be banging our heads against a brickwall with British research. http://www.gerald-massey.org.uk/jones/index.htm
Fredericka How much of what you know have you proved, and how much comes from articles like this one?
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In 1891 Fredericka Jutsum was a lodger with a family named Turner in Battersea ( Mr Turner was a labourer) and she was described as a widow age 74 born Chelsea and was employed as an Ironer ( Washerwoman). Something of a come down.
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On the 2 census returns where Ernest Jones gives his place of birth he says Prussia and Berlin. He was a barrister in Manchester on 1861, and he dies before 1871.
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There is some submitted information on Family Search for Ernest Jones being born in Berlin in 1819.
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Hi - I have been trying on this one, but I'm not comming up with much.
Frederickay - did you say you have Charles Jones's coat of arms - could you post them so we can see if we can match them to a Jones family
DebbieG (struggleing)
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The marriage of Charles and Charlotte is also submitted on Family Search. What worries me slightly is that I can't find any mention of Charles Jones in the 15th Hussars in the London Gazette, or the marriage in any of the newspapers on the Gale site
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There are a number of obits. for Ernest Jones on the Gale site, he died Jan 1869. The Manchester Times of 30th Jan. gives details of his father. It says after his retitement from the army he accompanied the Duke of Cumberland on a visit to the Prussian court and Ernest was born in Berlin in Jan 1819. It then says Major Jones bought an estate in Hostein and stayed there till 1838
I can't work out how to copy and paste the article onto here if someone else can...
It also says Ernest was an only child, now as I understand it Fredericka was his half sister? same father different mother? and she was born in Chelsea in 1819?
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I did find the marriage in one of the London papers - through Google books
1818 Captain Charles Jones of the 15th Hussars to Charlotte Matilda only daughter of the late Alexander Annesley Esq of Hyde Hall
I also found her death in 1845 at Isleworth aged 65
DebbieG
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OK - got something I think ;D
I found an obituary for Michael Jones FSA in 1852 and it mentions his elder brother who in 1815 was captain Charles Jones (so before he got promoted further). This Michael was born about 1776 - so the dates work. His father was another Michael Jones of Caton in Lancashire and his mother was Mary (nee Smith would you believe) who was first married to Edward Coyney). The article mentions all sorts of other relies going quite a bit back and concludes that in 1815 Captain Charles Jones was the heir to the barony of Scrope of Bolton
you can see the whole thing here
http://books.google.com/books?id=F8ghAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA97&dq=%22captain+charles+jones%22&lr=
;D
Debbie
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Ok - srub that :-[ I've just found a refernce to that Charles Jones's son Henry James Jones (b1812) so that's the wrong man
:-\
DebbieG
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oooo forgot it was Tuesday ;D
bookmarking for now
deb :)
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Dont know if this will help but there is a tree on a------y giving names of Charles 2 wives
and children. May be worth a look for clues.
Sue :) :)
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Hi
Is this about Ernest Jones? from NA;
Chartism - Your ArchivesChartism,BT 41/136/790,BT 41/474/2659,BT 41/475/2659,BT 41/476/2659,C 121/401,C 36/574,C 54/14661,HO 10/31,HO 100,HO 102. Contains material relating to the imprisonment of many Chartists, including Ernest Jones. It includes reports on the prisoners, returns of Chartist prisoners, petitions and memorials asking for pardons and material relating to the granting of pardons. Entry books of out-letters, warrants and pardons. 1837-1852 -9 Returns of committals for trial at the Old Bailey and Central Criminal Court. 1835-1849 Interviews with 73 Chartist prisoners.
deb
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Ernest's obit gives details of his Chartist past and prison etc.
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There are several refences to Ernest on National Archives ...posting them just in case :
Treasury Solicitor and HM Procurator General, Papers TS 11/138/Chartist Movement in London: R v. Ernest Charles Jones. Making seditious speech in Bishop Bonner's Fields. Court: Central Criminal . Chartist Movement in London: R v. Ernest Charles Jones. Making seditious speech in Bishop Bonner's Fields. Court: Central Date: 1848.
Jones, Ernest Charles (1819-1869) Chartist and Poet 131396Chartist and Poet Ernest Charles Jones corresp letters (56) to Karl Marx corresp with Jane Atherley (14 items) diaries corresp, family and business papers (1708 items) draft letters; memoranda and papers letters (33) to George Howell with latter's biography Date range: 1819 - 1869.
Notes on Chartism: Marx and Ernest Jones - D. Torr draft; notes on 'People's Pap...[Labour History Archive] Date range: 1831 - 1999
Diary 1 FANE 6/8/1/1May news of Mildmay Fane going to British Guiana. 23 -2 5 May, Astle. 31 May, preventing the meeting of Chartists. 7 June, concerned with arrest of Chartist leader, Ernest Jones, for seditious speeches "He was found in bed at the Moseley Arms Hotel at Date: 1848.
Extracts from the Visiting Justices minutes, July 1848 to June 1850 of all proceedings relating to Ernest Charles Jones, Chartist prisoner. WA/GP/1851/001 1851
deb
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I couldn't find the report of Charles death in The Times but I did find a report in the Derby Mercury in Feb 1843, but it doesn't give much detail. 'On the 17th inst, by the accidental discharge of a gun Major Charles Jones, late Aide de Camp to the King of Hanover' So we need to find his death cert. now.
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With it being a common name and no ages on death certs. in that qtr we have a choice of 7 registered at Salford, Marylebone, Holywell, Reeth ( Yorks), Pancras, Northampton and Clifton ( Bristol). My guess would be one of the London ones. I wish we could find an obit. for him.
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Got his inquest, it was in John Bull of 18th Feb 1843 ( listed under periodicals on Gale) The inquest was held at Mortague Arms, Montague St Bryanston Sq. London on the 18th. He was cleaning a pair of pistols that were loaded and one went off. Evidence was taken from his footman, and son Ernest Jones, accidental death. So which register office did Bryanston Sq come under?
I'm 99% sure it came under Marylebone
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Oh
Theres a report of the inquest on Google books here
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ITQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA408&lpg=PA408&dq=%22aide+de+camp%22+%22+charles+jones%22&source=web&ots=k5Ud9wa62l&sig=imQ_J41KTrEmz1UvsruR63dKat4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result
DebbieG
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oooooo LOOK:
NA:
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/488/980438Insured: Lavinia De Yrujo 16 College Street Chelsea and Captain Charles Jones Other property or occupiers: 6 Blizard Place Brompton. [Guildhall Library] Date: 1821.
look at the spelling of Lavinia surname!! ;D
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IGI
submitted
LAVINIA FREDERICA DE YRUJO, b c 1814 (death: 05 JAN 1893 )
mother; LAVINIA DE YRUJO
spouse;
FREDERICK RALPH CALEB JUTSUM
marriage;
1835 St Lukes, Chelsea, London
deb :)
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wonder if this is Charles' will ...only problem is this one is a captain, but it[s the right year ...posting just in case:
From NA:
Online Document PROB 11/1976Will of Charles Jones Captain, late of the Kings Hussars and 37th Regt Chelsea , Middlesex . Will of Charles Jones Captain, late of the Kings Hussars and 37th Regt Chelsea , Middlesex Date: 1843
date 25 mar 1834
deb
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Could well be Deb, if he was a captain when he made the will out then it might just still show up as that rank. It might be interesting reading if he had 2 families.
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what were Lavinia's and Frances' husbands names? I wonder if they knew of the other families?
deb
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found this message on Curious fox;
LLwellyn ATHERLEY -JONES, son of ernest JONES. m.p. poet and charterist. i am connected thru ernest jones father Captain Charles JONES. he shared a residence with Lavinia DE YRUJO at 6 Blizard pl. in chelsea in 1823. they were co insured on two residences. i would like to confirm the relationship if possible
I wonder if it's Frederickay :-\
from Wikipedia;
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marqués de Casa IrujoDon Carlos Martínez de Irujo y Tacón (born Cartagena 1763, died Madrid 1824), from 1803 known as Marqués de Casa Irujo, was a Spanish diplomat, Knight of the Order of Carlos III and public official.
His father was Manuel Martinez de irujo y de Erice and his mother Narcisa Tacon y Gamiz (born Navarre, Beriain 1740). He had two siblings, Narcisa Martinez de irujo y Tacon and Maria Rafaela Martinez de irujo Tacon.
Casa Irujo (often spelled Yrujo) was the Spanish minister to the United States from 1796 to 1807. He later served as minister to Brazil and France.
He was secretary of state of Spain (ministro de estado) three times, first in 1812, then in an interim capacity from 1818 to 1819, and finally for a few weeks from December 1823 until his death in January 1824.
In 1794 while an attaché at the Spanish embassy in London he had an illegitimate daughter named Lavinia de Irujo. Lavinia had two daughters Fredericka and Frances illegitimately to Major Charles Jones, father of Ernest Jones, a poet, dramatist and novelist. There are several drawings of Lavinia by the artist Henry Fuseli (1741-1825).
In 1798 Don Carlos married Sarah McKean, the daughter of Pennsylvania governor Thomas McKean. Their son Carlos Martínez de Irujo y McKean (1802-1855), Duque of Sotomayor, became prime minister of Spain for a short period in 1847.
there is more info and a picture here;
http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:KLmwiQ7lqOAJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Irujo_y_Tac%C3%B3n+lavinia+de+yrujo&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us
deb
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Fredericka ending up as a washerwoman, well ironer, a definate come down from her grandfather. Wonder who Lavinia's mother was.
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Irujo shows up twice in the 1790's in the Evening Post, 1793 attending a do at Buck. House and 1796 saying farewell to the king before leaving to take up his post in the USA.
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I also wondered who Lavinia's mum was ...at least we have an approx year for her birth and POB ..between 1794 (Don Carlos arrives) and 1798 (When Don Carlos married Sarah.) actually between 1794 and 1796 when he goes to the USA
When did Lavinia jnr and Frances marry? was it after 1837?
deb
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hi again ,can hardly keep up.
Captain Charles jones started as Lt.and adjutant about 1807 in 15th hussars ,then captain and then major in the 5th birgade at waterloo. he was also aide de camp to the Duke of Cumberland ,later the king of hanover . he lived in germany from 1819-1839 . i know nothing of his time in europe . thanks frederickay.
he married Charlotte matilda Annesley in 1818. i do not know jones 's birthplace or family .
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Fredericka married in St lukes Chelsea in 1834 to frederick ralph caleb jutsum . i would love to know more of Frances . she was married by 1866 to samuel clifton in shanghai china. she was atGloucester pl as frances augusta Jones in 1839. that is only mention i have of her until 1866.
frederickay.
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hi you are onto it . capt jones was also lt/adjutant 1809 at corunna and major charles jones in 5th bigade at waterloo. he died in 1843 and is buried in Kensal green . could you find his birth for me . his grave says 60yrs and a letter i have , says thank you for best wishes on my birthday the 7th. the letter is dated 26th dec . i feel the writing looks like the nov.
you are onto it . frederickay
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Fredericka you can download the will Deb found it will cost you £3.50 or your equivilent. It might just give you some clues. Finding Charles Jones place of birth without some clues is going to be immpossible. Such a common name and big gaps in PR's online.
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seems that Lavinia snr suffered from epilepsy ...she went to doctors accompanied by her mother ;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03wp/
wish we knew who her mum was
deb
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eeekkkkk long link ...can anyone tell me how to make it smaller
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If you go to the bottom of this page there is a link to "Shrink Link".
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hi. don't know where my answers are going ?????
SARAH KNIGHT servant . 1841 census =6 Blizard street as Sarah Yrujo . died 1841 aged 76.ish
Lavinia b. Oct. 1794 baptised dec. 1794 Marylebone to Charles and sarah Yrujo . 1841 census Lavinia JONES.
Article in Times 1824 about coception and intrigue of Laviniaand deceit of Count de irujo .
F.
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Thanks Bearkat ;D nice to see you 1
Frederickay ...what a wonderful family history you have ...wow!
I think the will will reveal more ...well I certainly hope it does. :-\
deb
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The baptism, Carlos - Charles, looks like they told the vicar porkies about being married, unless that is Carlos did marry Sarah, I can't see that if she was a servant. Mind you did he pay for Lavinia's upkeep? not many servants could afford to take their children to presumably expensive doctors like the one Deb found.
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There are a number of obits. for Ernest Jones on the Gale site, he died Jan 1869. The Manchester Times of 30th Jan. gives details of his father. It says after his retitement from the army he accompanied the Duke of Cumberland on a visit to the Prussian court and [b]Ernest was born in Berlin in Jan 1819[/b]. It then says Major Jones bought an estate in Hostein and stayed there till 1838
Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths in Germany began following the French Revolution in 1792.
http://genealogy.about.com/od/vital_records/p/germany.htm
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There are several drawings of Lavinia by the artist Henry Fuseli [/b] (1741-1825).
hafth have you seen any of these ?
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Hiya Toni ;D
We have ESP :o .... i have been searching for her portrait ... to no avail ...I am sure that it is most probably with a family member and not in any art gallery... :-\
I will keep on looking ...
deb ;D
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i searched goggle images (modfied - to page 8 ) and also the NPG
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IGI
submitted
LAVINIA FREDERICA DE YRUJO, b c 1814 (death: 05 JAN 1893 )
mother; LAVINIA DE YRUJO
spouse;
FREDERICK RALPH CALEB JUTSUM
marriage;
1835 St Lukes, Chelsea, London
deb :)
will that be on Pallotts ?
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Ernest Charles Jones (January 25, 1819 Berlin – January 26, 1869 Manchester),
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Charles_Jones
Further reading
Miles Taylor: "Ernest Jones, Chartism and the Romance of Politics, 1819 - 1869", Oxford University Press 2003.
External links
Ursula Stange: Annotated Bibliography on Chartism and Ernest Charles Jones
Chartist Ancestors: Where Are They Now includes an account of Jones's funeral
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Hi Toni
from Pallots:
Fredk Jutsum = Frederica Deyrujo 1834 Westminster, Middlesex
so was she Lavinia Frederica or vice versa ...ooohh on original she is Frederica Lavinia :-\ He is fredk RAFE Jutsum
he is a batchelor, she a spinster.
deb
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Would the parish register of their marriage shows witnesses etc ...? maybe her mum?
deb
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1835 It should show the witnesses, so we need someone who can access it unless Fredericka already knows what the PR's say.
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hi no i have never seen any written evidence of l.Frederica and Fredericks wedding other than pallots .
Lavinia de irujo portraits all over Europe and Auckland n.z. any with Q.E on are her . Q.E = Queens Elm where Lavinia de yrujo and her mother Sarah Knight lived .
Frederica de irujo /Jutsum was my ggggreat grandmother .
Lavinia de irujo 1.2 brother went on to be prime minister of Spain and the duke of Sotomayer.very powerful and rich and poor Frederica went on to be a widow laundress. hard to believe ...
would love to see witnesses if someone can do that ?
f,
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hi Fredrica
Sorry can't help from this side of the world .... ;D ::) :P
what happened that Frederica/Lavinia ended up in that state ...hard to believe that her family , albeit half brother/siblings, did not help her! :'(
deb
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Captain Charles Jones may be related to William brasier Jones of Woodhall.
quoting Ernest 1839 diary . referring to his father or his paternal grandfather
"his Great uncle was a JONES of Woodhall Suffolk ? .( the question mark is Ernest's.)
Ernest goes on to say " My paternal grandfather (no name ) has estates at Sudbury in Suffolk . the Grove, . the Crote (my ?) houses at Stratford in-or-and in Stratford on Avon "
and " Servants Ruth and William Thompson knew my fathers family well belonging to the town or near Clare (my ? ) in Suffolk. "
I still cant find my Captain Charles birth or family with all this info . i know he was born around 1783 probably Nov or DEC.
thanks all. f.
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Hi again
I think that you have a lot of what we are finding , as you said in your query(post #1) ...
"1st marriage was to unknown relative of Lord Braybrooke who was also niece of Provost of Eaton. He then married Charlotte Annesley (daughter of Alex Annesley of Hyde Hall ) in 1818."
So Charles was still married to wife #2 when he had his liason with Lavinia ...you say the girls , Lav jnr and Frances were born between 1816 -1821. What children did Charles and Charlotte have together .
where did you get the info that his first wife was a relative of Lord Braybrooke ...?
deb
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Charles was born about 1783 so he must have married around 1804 /. the infomation is quoted by Ernest in his 1839 diary .
" my father1st wife was ? Braybrooke ,a relative of lord braybrooke and the niece of the Provost of Eaton ."
(i know no more than that )
he started his liaison( by his own admission ) with Lavinia in 1816 .
he married Charlotte in 1818 and had only one child Ernest in germany 1819 .
the two daughters were in existence by 1821 . Fredericka's gravestone says she was born 1817.
IF i could find the provost of eaton for that time period 1800 maybe i could track her thru there and then track Jones family from the marriage . as you can see it is most likely they are in Suffolk area .
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Captain Charles Jones Arms and crest
per pale argent and gules three lions rampant argent a mullet for difference
Crest= a bucks head erased sable attired or holding the horns a buglehorn of the first .
motto = virvtis amore .= annesley or Stephans family .
his 2nd wife Charlotte Matilda Annesley was daughter of Alexander Annesley of Hyde-hall. herts .
In google books i see arms attributed to Jones of London .
David has helped me with descriptions but we haven't been able to decipher individual families . have got drawing . don't know how to put it up tho.
thanks . f.
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hi Fredrica
Sorry can't help from this side of the world .... ;D ::) :P
what happened that Frederica/Lavinia ended up in that state ...hard to believe that her family , albeit half brother/siblings, did not help her! :'(
deb
not hard to belive at all really
she was illegitimate
and the money goes down the male side
so thats would be it really.
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hi .
the count de yrujo maintained Lavinia, provided her with a home and education .(she was at school for catholic girls in 1808 ) and she wrote to her brother Fernando duke of sotomayer until her death >. they were among st the richest and most powerful family in Spain .. and still v. important...
Fredericka Lavinia married Frederick Ralph Caleb Jutsum . i think he was a fly by night and they did moonlight flits every child or two years . going throughout Chelsea then to Wandsworth and Bermondsey.
In 1866 She was left a 1/2 share of 400 pounds and the leasehold of 123 fulham road ( the house given to Lavinia in 1821 by capt. Jones ).
Don't know who took over the home . anyone out there got property records ????
So really don't know what happenned to family . she had a lot of children but died in the home of the Turners. not a name i can recall in tree..
at the time of her death her sister Frances Clifton was in Shanghai.
it is all v. intriguing .
thanks .f
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there was a
Samuel Jutsum at Aldgate High Street who was a butcher, in 1826
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King v. Richard Jutsum (also Jutson): Brief for the Prosecution, 1776.
[Jutsum was to be tried at Guildhall on 2 Dec 1776; refers to indictment: on 14 Feb 16 Geo III [1776] for keeping false scales].
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woo hoo think i may have found something :~
on A2A
Creator(s):
Sun Fire Office, 1710-1891
Exchange House Fire Office, 1708-1710
Sun Insurance Office Ltd, 1891-1959
Sun Alliance Group, 1959-1996
Royal and Sun Alliance, 1996-
[Access Conditions]
Records marked "access restricted" are subject to access conditions. Please enquire to Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section.
[Note]
For guidelines for how best to use the detailed index of policies for some of the London insurers policy registers (old series, MS 11936) on A2A please see The "Place in the Sun" project - using the online index of Sun Fire Office policy registers 1816 - 1824 at: www.history.ac.uk/gh/sun.htm
FILE - Policy register - ref. MS 11936/488 - date: 1820-1821
item: [no title] - ref. MS 11936/488/980438 - date: 16 May 1821
[from Scope and Content] Insured: Lavinia De Yrujo 16 College Street Chelsea and Captain Charles Jones
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also on A2A
CONTACT: London Metropolitan Archives
WESTMINSTER QUARTER SESSIONS: ADMINISTRATION
Catalogue Ref. WA
Creator(s):
Middlesex Sessions of the Peace, c 1350-1889
Quarter Sessions of the Peace for the City and Liberty of Westminster, 1618-1844
PRISONS
Working papers - ref. WA/GP
HOUSE OF CORRECTION, TOTHILL FIELDS
FILE - Extracts from the Visiting Justices minutes, July 1848 to June 1850 of all proceedings relating to Ernest Charles Jones, Chartist prisoner. - ref. WA/GP/1851/001 - date: 1851
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Good Morning All
Fred. has just sent me a picture to show you - Major Charles Jones Grave
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there was a workhoue / infirmary along FUlham Road which was enlarged when they accquired land from an adjacent priory
see workhouses.org but there are alos records on A2A i was wondering what number Fulham Road this would be? - there are also photos.
i wonder if there are photos on francisfirth.
what were those 'poor' maps of London that are coloured coded called again, i wodner if lavinias house will be shown on there?
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Hi DebbieG
Hi Fred, that says a family vault, who else lies within?
sometimes there names were written on the stones alongside
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This is the picture of the arms that Fred has - but it is very small and indistinct I have done my best with it
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This is lovely :)
Lavinia
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and the writing that went with the above picture
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question why would Henry Fuseli (like the pasta) be sketchign Lavina?
did he have a romantic notion towards her or just becasue she was wealthy and he was a good artist / painter ?
this gives her date of birth in London
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Oh dear ,
missed it...........again ???
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Oh dear ,
missed it...........again ???
;D ;D ;D
its quite difficult
i can't seem to find anything useful, or what is not already known
usually wealthy families have a lot of records through wills etc esp. if not written down but i am just drawing a blank, not sure what is included on a German birth cert as opposed to our British English one
we need to find Major Charles birth but dowe know of any siblings / or even his parents names to enable us to look for this ?
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He was at Corunna and Waterloo and was aide de camp to Duke of Cumberland.
i wonder if the Naval records will have anything on him? serving at Waterloo with Nelson ?
HMS victory / dockyard museum in Portsmouth
maybe worth contacting them
am i on the right lines here or am i confusing many different battles ?
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Toni - wrong battles :)
Nelson = Trafelgar
Wellington = Waterloo
As our guy was in the Army rather than the navy I can't see there being anything in Naval records
DebbieG
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Toni - wrong battles :)
Nelson = Trafelgar
Wellington = Waterloo
As our guy was in the Army rather than the navy I can't see there being anything in Naval records
DebbieG
:-[ :-[ :-[
oh well
i did think Army / Navy but then i rambled on as per usual
nice try though dont you think!
is there an imperial war museum that may be able to help ?
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Do you know lord Brayford's family name?
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Captain Charles Jones may be related to William brasier Jones of Woodhall.
quoting Ernest 1839 diary . referring to his father or his paternal grandfather
"his Great uncle was a JONES of Woodhall Suffolk ? .( the question mark is Ernest's.)
Ernest goes on to say " My paternal grandfather (no name ) has estates at Sudbury in Suffolk . the Grove, . the Crote (my ?) houses at Stratford in-or-and in Stratford on Avon "
and " Servants Ruth and William Thompson knew my fathers family well belonging to the town or near Clare (my ? ) in Suffolk. "
do you have this diary ?
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/03wy/
imperial war museum
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There is also the National Army Museum, I know someone who used to work there, but I phoned him last night and he has left, he wasn't sure but said it might be worth a try.
DebbieG
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50 pence to have a look :o
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well if he is connected to William Brazier JOnes then
Feb 29 1844
(yes 29th)
at Sudbury Mrs Jones, wife of William Brazier Jones esq. and only sister to William Wright esq. of Eyston Hall, Belchamp Walter, Essex
July 13 1846 Suffolk
at Sudbury aged 49 William Brasier Jones esq. eldest son of the late William JOnes esq. of Wood Hall Sudbury
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The National Archives | Access to ArchivesAbstract of title of Henry Tiffin and Thomas Meeking (trustees of the will of William Brasier Jones esq.) to the Woodhall estate in Acton, Long Melford, ...
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=174-ee501&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18
Lagden SEAX infoInc. copy marriage settlement of Thomas Howth Lynne of Lt. Horkesley and Miss G. Lagden, 1722; marriage settlement of William Brasier Jones of Belchamp ...
essex1841.com/Lagden-SEAX-info.shtml
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I have some bits on William Brasier Jones too
He died in 1846 aged 49 - the eldest son of the late William Jones of Wood Hall Sudbury
William Jones (the elder) married Jemima Brasier 1792 Clapham
DebbieG
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There is this will at the PRO which might belong to William Jones - as we know he was dead by 1846
Description Will of William Jones, Gentleman of Sudbury , Suffolk
Date 24 September 1835
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1852
and from the NBI he was 64 when he died in 1835
DebbieG
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Debbie if you look at Williams wife obit in the gentlemans magazine just below here there is a Jemima death which begins lately in italics i wondered if this meant that Mrs Jones was Jemima who was previously married to Charles L ........ (can't remember his surname of the top of my head) but then discounted it
when William Brazier died it lists him as eldest child and he was born circa 1797 :-\ so not a brother to Charles then ??
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Ernests diary certianly hints at them being related so i think its worht investing in the will to see if that gives us more clues.
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is this your Captain Charles Jones in the Gentlemans Magazine ?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03wz/
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Toni - Its not, I found that one yesterday but then I found he had a completly different son (its on page 2 a think)
I am wondering if Charles is a younger brother of William born 1771 (who married Jemima) Ernest refers to uncles, so there should be another brother or two around somewhere.
DebbieG
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I think Lord Braybrooke at the time of Charles's marriage was a Richard Griffin 2nd baron ,he died in 1825...estates in Essex (Audley end) and Berkshire (Billingbear)
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i had a look at them Hepburn but got confused
Debbie yes he mentions uncles, i wodner if they inherited the house at Sudbury or brought it was thinking of historical reocrds / deeds / wills ?
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juist getting this straight in my head
Captain Charles Jones was some relation to
William Brasier Jones (of Wood Hall Sudbury) was married to .... Wright (sister of William of Eyston hall Belchamp Essex)
Lieutenant-Colonel Gordon Graham Donaldson was a senior officer in the British Army who died as a result of illness contracted during the disastrous Walcheren Campaign in 1809. He was commissioned in the 1st Foot Guards (the Grenadier Guards). There is a memorial to him in the Guards Officers Memorial at the Royal Military Chapel, Wellington Barracks.
His eldest daughter, Eliza-Ann, married William Wright Esq, of Eyston Hall, Sudbury, in 1827.
The National Archives | The Catalogue | Browseopen HMC 9/57 · Details for this reference E Earlsby - Eyston Hall · open HMC 9/58 · Details for this reference F Fairstead - Fyfield ...
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=4&CATID=77288&GPE=False&MARKER=0
intersting article here:~
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20040225/ai_n12772481
although does not help in our quest
looks like Eyston Hall came out of the family befor the early 1900's
1900-1901 Suffolk & Essex Free Press FDLHS newspaper archiveSale at Eyston Hall, Belchamp Walter for Mr J.A.Firmin who is in bankruptcy. 7 horses-foal-pony-donkey-8 cows-4 calves-1 sow-60 turkeys-150 fowls. ...
www.foxearth.org.uk/1900-1901SuffolkFreePress.html
probably here :~
1810-1813 Bury and Norwich Post FDLHS newspaper archiveEyston Hall, Essex to be sold at the Rose and Crown in Sudbury. All the manor of Eyston Hall and farm, situated in Belchamp and Borley, containing about 197 ...
www.foxearth.org.uk/1810-1813BuryNorwichPost.html
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ah ha :-\
http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/essexb09c.html
William Wright was at Eyston in 1874
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The National Archives | Access to ArchivesEyston Hall, Sudbury HC552/1/2/7/28 Mar 1909-Jan 1910. 2 files. Coney Weston Hall: box shutters HC552/1/2/7/29 Apr 1909-1911 ...
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=174-hc552&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18
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Are we after the Provost of Eaton or the Provost of Eton?
provosts of Eton...Jonathon Davies 1791 to 1809 followed by Joseph Goodall 1809 to 1840..depending on when Charles married it has to be one of these.
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http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CHjones.htm
do you have this?
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http://www.gerald-massey.org.uk/jones/index.htm
Gosh ,,,more on him.
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Are we after the Provost of Eaton or the Provost of Eton?
provosts of Eton...Jonathon Davies 1791 to 1809 followed by Joseph Goodall 1809 to 1840..depending on when Charles married it has to be one of these.
he married the niece of one of these hmmm looks like we have to work out their families first to find out who and then it may be a maternal niece ratehr thana paternal niece and so she could have any surname ::)
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I would say Eton - well done hepburn - that's an angle we haven't tried
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which one would you pick ?
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2 Joseph Goodalls only on the IGI both born in Berkshire (that might make sense Eton being in Berkshire)....first one 1755 to Richard and Sarah...second one 1779 to Joseph and Rebecca.do you think the first one may be the best one to try and follow?
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Oh Gawd this might be barking up the wrong tree!!
All these Goodalls born in Moulsford Berkshire
Mary 1747 father Goodall
Martha 1748 " " "
Sarah 1754 " ""
Joseph 1755 father Richard mother Sarah
Richard 1752 " " " "...
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i am not sure Hepburn on any of that
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I did say this was going to be difficult, but you're all doing a fantastic job.
Barbara
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STUCK.....don't know what to look for!!!!!!
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well Hepburn i was looking for William Wright who married Eliza Ann Donaldson and their children and also William Wrights sister who married William Brasier Jones who is some relation to Captain Charles Jones
but i couldn't find them and now i have to go as i have work to do and only about 20 minuteds to do it in eeeeekkkk
perhaps you could follow up on that
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I have been looking at the coats of arms that have been mentioned. This description is definitely not the coat of arms in the picture Fred sent me which I put on here for her - I am not sure which she is saying are Major Jones's arms - the picture or the description
Captain Charles Jones Arms and crest
per pale argent and gules three lions rampant argent a mullet for difference
Crest= a bucks head erased sable attired or holding the horns a buglehorn of the first .
motto = virvtis amore .= annesley or Stephans family .
his 2nd wife Charlotte Matilda Annesley was daughter of Alexander Annesley of Hyde-hall. herts .
In google books i see arms attributed to Jones of London .
David has helped me with descriptions but we haven't been able to decipher individual families . have got drawing . don't know how to put it up tho.
thanks . f.
The arms in the description above would look something like this - please excuse the poor artwork but I wanted to get it posted
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Debbie,
whats a Mullet?
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A Mullet is a star - in this case centre top
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I have found these arms being used by a Jones family in London in the 1633 visitation of London, which gives as the last 2 generations Jeromy (sic) Jones of London merchant - married (1) Mary d/o John Ards of Sherington Kent (no issue) and married (2) Dorothy d/o John Sulyard of Kent - 2 sons William (son & heir) and Jeromy. However I have now been through several listings and I can't find them being used by any Jones more recent. It is all very odd.
Our man Charles , must have had some serious money just be be in the hussars to start off with, let alone rise to the rank of Major (promotions had to be purchased in those days). We also know he at one time bought an estate in Germany, and Ernest refers to his uncles so he had at least two brothers, I am really amazed we can't find more about him and his family
DebbieG
I think someone is sat up there laughing at us
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Debbie,
whats a Mullet?
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sorry Deb,
windows shut down on me ,I didn't realise I was posting again same question ???
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there's a millions sites for Ernest and not a sausage on Charles...
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Morning all
Back with coffee and ready to 'hunt' ...... errrrrr ....not sure at this stage what I should be looking for?
Head me in a direction , any direction ;D ::)
deb
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Morning Deb
I really am not sure what to suggest at the moment, there is a possibility that William Jones born about 1771 who married Jemima Brasier in 1792 in Clapham and had a son William Brasier Jones in 1897 (who died in 1846), MIGHT be the brother of 'our' Charles Jones - he appears to have purchased the Woodhall estate in Suffolk but where he came from I don't know, so I am not sure what to try next
DebbieG
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This is the regiment that the 15th Hussars eventually became.http://www.lightdragoons.org.uk/regimental_history/historical_enquiries.php I wonder if Fredericka has ever contacted them to see what they have on Charles Jones?
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http://www.gerald-massey.org.uk/jones/index.htm
Gosh ,,,more on him.
hi .... it says in the above link:
Mr. Jones was born on the 25th of January, 1819, at Berlin. His father, Major Charles Jones, of the 15th Hussars, was descended from an old Norman family, settled in the Welsh Marches,
WALES ??
deb
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There was money in the Annesley family, look at this £50,000 in the early 19th. century
Bond of £50000 between Robert Matthew Annesley of the Inner Temple gentleman and Sir Thomas Clarges zDDX31/17/64 10 Nov 1818
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service
Former reference: DDX31/238
1 Item
Contents:
For payment of £25000 further to a Decree in Chancery following a Bill of Complaint of Sir Thomas Clarges against Alexander Annesley deceased
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IGI:
WILLIAM BRASIER JONES
born; 01 DEC 1796
chr; 12 MAR 1797 Saint Gregory, Sudbury, Suffolk
died; JUL 1806
parents; William Jones and Jemima Brasier
who is he?
another child of William Jones and Jemima Brasier;
Jemima JONES
born 25 APR 1799
chr 05 JAN 1800 Saint Gregory, Sudbury,
child of William Jones and Jemima BRAZIA
Diana Jones
born; 13 DEC 1808
chr09 APR 1809 Sudbury,St Peter, , Suffolk
possible other sibs;ABIGAIL JONES 08 FEB 1804 Sudbury,
d/o William Jones and Jemima (SUBMITTED)
there is a WILLIAM JONES 06 MAR 1811 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone ....did they go to London?
deb
added ...there is no Charles Jones with parents; William and Jemima
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Deb we think might be the brother of William as in William & Jemima not the son
DebbieG
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eekkkkk ;D ;D
Which Jones married a WRIGHT girl? ...can't find the page where I saw that info?
deb
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William Brasier Jones married the Wright girl - he was the daughter of William & Jemima - the date of death on the IGI record you posted is wrong he died in 1846
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ahh okay ...
the IGI record for William B Jones is extracted tho' :-\
deb
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Well I found this in the gentlemans mag
1846 death of William Brasier Jones aged 49 son of the late William Jones esq of Wood Hall Sudbury
DebbieG
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William and Jemima'a marriage
JEMIMA BRASIER
Marriage
Spouse: WILLIAM JONES
Marriage: 21 AUG 1792 Holy Trinity, Clapham, Surrey, England
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ooooo look
1841;
St Gregory, Suffolk
Friars Street
William JONES 40 ind Y
Hannah Jones 35 N
Diana Jones 15 Y
then =on IGI
Dianna Margaretta <Jones>
16 MAY 1828 Sudbury,St Peters,Bts
parents;
WILLIAM BRASIER JONES and Hannah
extracted
maybe they married in Hannah's parish ...will try to find her on 1851
on the sane page on 1841 there is a Henry Jones corn merchant
deb
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hi marriage;
William Brasier JONES = Hannah WRIGHT
23 AUG 1823 Saint Gregory, Sudbury, Suffolk,
deb :)
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Hannah could have died.
Hannah Jones 1844 Jan-Feb-Mar Sudbury Essex, Suffolk
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Dianna Margretta was baptised on 16/5/1828 at St Peters Sudbury, and she married after her father's death
DIANA MARGARETTA JONES
Marriages:
Spouse: WILLIAM BONYTHON MOFFATT Family
Marriage: 31 DEC 1846 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London, England
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It suggests the family moved between London and Suffolk on a regular basis.
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just found this; on this site; http://essex1841.com/Lagden-SEAX-info.shtml
Inc. copy marriage settlement of Thomas Howth Lynne of Lt. Horkesley and Miss G. Lagden, 1722; marriage settlement of William Brasier Jones of Belchamp Walter and Miss H. Wright, 1823; probate will of Mrs H. Jones of Sudbury, 1839, proved 1844; abstract of title to woodland, reciting 1809-1847
deb
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Hi all, hope you liked Lavinia . she was lovely tho i did pick a nice portrait. well i have been following this family obsessively for years having been to england twice since 2005.
I have Captain Charles Jones will. he leaves it all to Ernest and his wife Charlotte.NO mention of the two daughters Frederica and Frances .
i have up 10 letters dated 1821 until 1829 berating Lavinia and her mother Sarah knight where he is pleading poverty . There is NO mention of his personal family other than his wife and son .
he is writing to sir Herbert Taylor , .his lawyer @ the time is Charles Brickell.
I have a letter dated 1839 to Frances which he addresses to Frances Augusta JONES @ Gloucester place signing off as her loving father. he mentions Ernest but no extended family.
i have read somewhere of the welsh marshes then that the family had been in England 500 years.
The houses in Sudbury ,Stratford and the mention of the town of Clare all come from a diary of Ernest which i read in Manchester library in 2007.
In the court martial of ?Quentin the Captain gives a lot of evidence . i have here a copy of the Corunna diary. he is very "up there "in all these things . you would think we would be able to find
his parents .
his homes.
i am going to follow the provost lines . definitely spelt EATON .
I am quite sure when Ernest refers to his uncles it is the ANNESLEY family .
he doesn't seem to know anything of his fathers family . i will get Debs to put up what i got out of the diary . thanks for all your help.
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Fredericka Eaton is a variation on the spelling of Eton http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42557
If you scroll down a long way it shows that Jonathon Davies who died in 1807 left bequests in his will. Now if that will is at the NA it might be interesting. I'll have a look for it.
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From the Derby Mercury of 21/12/1809 ( put incorrect year in my previous post)
' Died on Monday last at Eton Rev Jonathon Davies Provost of Eton College. He left one thousand pounds to this university for the purpose of founding a scolarship similar to those of Lord Craven one of which he had himself enjoyed. He has bequested two thousand pounds to Kings College to augment their funds for the purchase of '( I can't read the end bit)
No mention of any family. I couldn't see his will on the NA site, but dying so late in the year I would think it was proved in 1810.
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Jonathon Davies was born in 1736, he graduated from Kings College Cambridge in 1756. If anyone has Ancestry.com then they can access the data base, Ancestry,Co. Uk only gives you the index.
We may be barking completly up the wrong tree here, but I think we have to at least discount him as being the Provost of Eaton mentioned.
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This is the contact for the Eton College archivist.
http://www.etoncollege.com/EtonForm.asp?di=1308
I wonder what they have for Jonathon Davies, I wonder if they know whether he was married and had children. I think it's worth a try.
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Good Morning All
I am not sure where we are getting - they are certainly an interesting and tantalising family. Fred has sent me some notes she took from Ernests diary - which I think she mentioned was in Manchester RO? It seems he was interested in his family history and intended to follow things up - I don't suppose he met or knew many of them before he came to this country aged 20.
Here are the notes she sent
- I think/hope she intended for me to put them on here - if not let me know and I will remove them again
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all. Notes from Ernest Jones diary. 1839-43 .
These are notations from back page as he has written them.
I have copied them best I can
.A=Annesley.
Ernest mother Charlotte Matilda Annesley. =wife of Major Charles Jones.
Alexander Annesley is Charlottes Father.
Dates were not provided...
_______________________________________________________________________--
Alex .Annesley was a ? Wife Lyon ( sp) a W. Indian of Barbados of large property. Believed to be a
runaway match. There MAY however have been a Settlement. This marriage must have taken place
60 or 65 years ago
.TOOK PLACE IN 1777
In what way Mr. A. connected with the A. of Bletchington-the Earls of A and Mountnorris. They bear
the same arms .refer to the herald’s college or my uncles
__________________________________________________________________________
Alex. A.
–master extraordinary of the chancery.(our magistrate for Hertfordshire)
________________________________________________________________--
Robert A .m. Julia—ladies maid to the Marchioness of Anglesea and daughter of the gardener of …
…Hall. Her daughter Matilda was the Jones third godchild.
William Judd esq.Curzon Lodge .Brompton.
Mrs. Judd was Alex. A.’s Sister
Annesley will.
1813 personal property under 15,000 Freehold.
Chambers in Middle Temple. 4 Harecourt, late of Hyde Hall.herts.and Coragon pl.in m/sex
Ca………Tunbridge wells, Brighton.
Kentish estates value 50,000 pounds,-diamonds jewels and plate
Yorkshire estate ?
Oxfordshire estate? =Ernest’s question mark.
Information for (or from)
John Hutton Annesley
Robert Matthew A.
Mr. and Mrs. Whitfield.
A solicitor of the name Cobb or Cobble.
Mr. G.rat de V ………18 Buckingham st Strand /stoud.
________________________________________________________________________
My father‘s
1st wife was a? Braysbrooke a relative of Lord Braysbrooke and niece of the Provost of Eaton
________________________________________________________________________
Ruth and
William Thompson- my grandmother Mrs. A -servants who lived with Mrs. .A. after Mr. A. death
knew my fathers family well. Belonging to the town of Clare? In Suffolk.
________________________________________________________________________
My paternal
grandfather had estates at Sudbury in Suffolk...The Grove … the Crote? Houses at Stratford in or
and in Stratford-on-Avon.
________________________________________________________________________
His great
uncle was a JONES of Wood hall-Suffolk? =Ernest question mark. The king of Hanover and Captain
Grimes can if they choose give full information.
My grandfather had 3 brothers. Thomas .A. who died childless left his property to the children of
Alex. A. and Isaac Judd. He took his wife’s name which was Willet. Died before A. annesley. Mrs.
Willet was the daughter (crossed thru) heir of an immensely rich Miser (? My question mark). Mr. A
.advised his bro Willett (?) to s….. Of the Miser (?) on the Mortmain Act.
________________________________________________________________________
Mr. Willet
dead while my grandfather was at Hyde._
The Annesley of Blecthington has huge estates in Ireland. and I have sent some of you the Irish
records. They also have an Annesley man running off with the gardener’s wife. worth reading
HYDE HALL in Hertfordshire appears to be in the Jocelyn family since 1066 so I will have to follow
that up.
I have started looking in Sudbury for the Jones family homes. First time we have really known that
Jones came from there. He must have been the younger son of some moneyed folk.
Also in Manchester papers an account of Jones in the Peninsular war. 2nd time I have read this.
This is from a. A Wainwright or Whitfield .( my memory )
Peninsular war Captain Charles Jones was beside Sir John Moore when he died at the Battle of
Corunna. In the cavalry charge at Sahagan against (?) Napoleon’s cuss airs . Major Jones received
a severe saber cut on his head...
Not bad. Ernest writing is small and scrawley . The diary is only about three inches by three
inches. Interesting enough the dates of his fathers Charles death are missing.
I suppose this justifies my trip to England. Wait till I get the 1700 pieces of info from Columbia
University. That includes the letters to Frances who by the way was still in Shanghai with 20
pounds to her name in 1873.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DebbieG
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If you enter Jones Sudbury Suffolk 1700/1800 in A2A these are the first items that come up.
Lease & release
By Wm. {William?} Barwell Carter, surgeon of Hartest (age c.20) (at request of Wm. {William?} Jones, common brewer, of Sudbury) to Robt. {Robert?} Frost, gent. of Sudbury of Messuage & land in Middleton, Essex (once occ. by Wm. {William?} Chandler, then
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
Assignment of trust of mortgage
By Wm. {William?} Carrington, gent. of Bradfield Hall, Essex, by direction of Jas. {James?} Leech, gent. of Mistley, & Jn. {John?} Constable, farmer of Gt. Henny at nomination of Wm. {William?} Jones, common brewer of Sudbury, to Jas. {James?} Jones, innholder
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
Lease & release
By John Death, farmer of Assington, to Wm. {William?} Jones, common brewer of Sudbury & assignment of mortgage in trust by Nathl. {Nathaniel?} Cousens, farmer of Assington to Jas. {James?} Jones, innholder of Sudbury re. property as 533. 26.Sept.1788..
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
Release of legacy (from Hugh Constable)
By grandson Hugh Constable, to Wm. {William?} Jones.29.Apr.1786. Release of legacy (from Hugh Constable) by grandson Danl. {Daniel?} Constable to Wm. {William?} Jones.9.Feb.1786. - with oath by Wm. {William?} Snell, labourer of Middleton & wife Hannah
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
Assignment of trust of mortgage (as 613/513 etc.)
To attend inheritance by Margt. {Margaret?} Daniel, widow of Bulmer by direction of John Death, farmer of Assington, at nomination of Wm. {William?} Jones, common brewer of Sudbury, to Jas. {James?} Jones, innholder of Sudbury. 26.Sept.1788.. [Suffolk,
Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National Archives
These are held at Suffork Archives. Has Fredericka contacted the archives to see what light they can throw on the Jones family?
Another thought A time line of where the 15th Hussars were say between 1800 and 1815 would throw up when Charles was in England to give an opportunity for a first marriage, it would at least give us some idea when the marriage could have taken place.
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oh got me going thru my papers now . looking for arms etc BUT i see when Charles made a codicil to his will29th march 1841 . he was living at porchester house bayswater . middlesex. can someone look that up for me on 1841 census please . he died in 1843 in Montague Square .
i will copy off all the info below so i can study it . thanks . Jan
PS. please don't forget my Frederica and Frances aka as fanny baptism. . where are they ????
they must have been born between 1815-1821 . Frederica's grave says she was born 1817. supposedly she was born in Chelsea but i have never found her . the line of illegitimacy is Knight ,de yrujo , Jones . so i suppose she could be any of those names tho Laviniatheir mother , was definitely baptized as Lavinia de irujo, so you think her children would be the same . the family has swapped their names as their lovers have up- set them eg . Lavinia Jones and Sarah de yrujo in the 1841 census. WOMEN!!?? ::) ::)
Jan
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I'm off out otherwise I would look for Porchester House, a bit of a clue as to where it was might be worked out from here.
http://www.foxtons.co.uk/property-for-sale-in-bayswater/chpk0289261
If you look at the map my guess is that is was on what is now Bayswater Road.
It needs someone to trawl through the census to find it
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Do we know what year Frances married Samuel Clifton?
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ITQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA408&lpg=PA408&dq=%22major+charles+jones%22&source=web&ots=k5UdaAj84m&sig=pPM1lrihwqPtAVS2pgm7CBQtt_o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
do we have this
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Oops to biggggg
-
Here you go........ ;D ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03x6/
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Morning all
Back again .... cannot spot Charles in 1841 ... what parish is Bayswater?
will keep looking
deb :)
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okay ..G**gled it ;D
Bayswater is an area of west London in the City of Westminster. It is a built-up district located 3 miles (4.8 km) west north-west of Charing Cross and borders the north of Hyde Park over Kensington Gardens
will concentrate there
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This is why we can't find Charles on the 1841 census, taken from the list of missing parishes on An**** 680 Middlesex Parish: Paddington
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arrggggg ...good find Jaywit... Have been searching all morning ....
also having no luck with Lavina Frederica and Frances Augusta .... Lavina married Jutsom circa 1835 .... When did Francis marry Clifton?
deb
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On 1841 there is a Frederick 27 and Frederica 24 JUTRAS with children Ellen 5 and Charles 3, at Caroline Place in Chelsea. the surname is hard to make out.
from IGI children of Frederick Ralph/Rafe Jutsom and Frederica Lavinia.:
CHARLES FREDERIC JUTSUM 04 SEP 1839 Saint Luke, Chelsea,
SARAH CHEESEMAN JUTSUM 09 JUN 1837 Saint Luke, Chelsea
ummm Ellen 5...is she Sarah ...or have I got the wrong family?
deb
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ahhhh They must be the right family ...here is Ellen:
IGI
ELLEN ELIZABETH JUTSUM
21 OCT 1835 St Lukes, Chelsea
dad; FREDERICK RALPH CALEB JUTSUM
mum; LAVINIA FREDERICA DE YRUJO
submitted
deb
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more from IGI
children:
AMY LAVINIA JUTSUM 19 MAY 1844 13 Caroline Place, Chelsea , died 1846
HENRY HUBERT JUTSUM 17 APR 1842 13 Caroline Place, Chelsea
variation for Charles Frederick b 1839;
06 AUG 1839 4 Little College St, Chelsea (birth) died; 10 OCT 1864
deb
added ...just found that Sarah Cheeseman Jutson b 1837 died 1838 (IGI sub)
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I wonder how De Yrujo would be pronounced in 1851? The reason I am asking is that I have found a Frances A DAYER on 1851, single, age 30 born London Middlesex. She's a cook at a pub in Greenwich. Any thoughts?
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hi Jaywit ...
ummm I wonder ...Is Dayer how it looks on the original .... worth a shot. Could be Da Yer which could = De Yrujo ::)
I was looking for Frederica/Lavinia in 1851 ...the are still around under the surname JUTSAM.... wish she would make up her mind whether she wanted to be Lavinia or Frederica.
Anyway they are there with a whole lot more kids...living at 11 Lordship Place, Chelsea ...I cannot make out Frederick's occupation. Thought Frances augusta might be with them ...no such luck :-\
Frederica is 34 and born Chelsea .... we have to find her baptism :-\
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It is Dayer on the image, but with the householder not being a relative and there are a few servants etc. I mean at that time when you got a job you didn't have to turn up with a load of paperwork, so in all probability he had never seen her name written down and it was his bash at how it was spelt.
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did anything coem of the William Wright line ?
i am not sure what we are doing now ?
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Hi Toni
jaywit and I were trying to follow up with lavinia Frederica b c 1817 and Francis Augusta.
We have found Frederica with hubby Frederick Jutsum and her kids in 1841 (Mistranscribed as JUTRAS) and in 1851 under JUTSAM.
I am wondering if this is Frances Augusta in 1841
Chelsea
Dracol/b?? place ..umm maybe Dracot Place
Fanny JONES 20 Ind Y
Maybe living off daddy's (capt Jones) money.
deb
PS ...wonder about the proximity of Dracot Place (Fanny), Caroline Place (Frederica) and Porchester Sq/Montague place ( Charles Jones) in 1841.
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Well I've just looked up Caroline Place on Google maps, and it's just off Bayswater Rd where we think Charles was, just round the corner ;D ;D
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I can find a Draycott Place, it's the other side of Hyde Park, still within walking distance.
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A little it of information about Samuel Clifton on here.
http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~hirab/smpcd.html
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Scroll right down to the last paragraph and Sam has another mention, and the fact that he was married.
http://www.autumnjade.com/shanghai_history.html
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hi guys . i wrote reply its gone into ether . try again ,
Frances Augusta aka fanny must be married to Samuel Clifton by 1866 . (Lavinia's will )
i have 1861 census #3 Shirley villas Hanwell with MARY CLIFTON as HEAD BORN CHELSEA with her 6 children who are all born h.k or shanghai.
i know from archives and Chinese papers that these are the correct children . Samuel dies back in england in Nov 1872 (from Chinese papers and only says england ).he has left Frances back in China
the son Alfred dies in China1891 and Frances is still there .
two stepdaughters inherit . Bertha limby and Isabel Stockwell . the Stockwells move to Australia and Bertha limby was still in China .
so i am surmising after all that the Frances marries Samuel between 1861 -66. haven't found the marriage ever ....
2nd.
dayer sounds promising . will look up on bmd for marriage to Samuel.
3rd.
am going to write to the Eaton archivist today .looking for charlies first wife and hoping to fall upon a tree .
will get back to you all v. soon . Jan
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Well Samuel Clifton dying in 1872, only 3 of them
Samuel Clifton abt 1815 1872 Jan-Feb-Mar Newark Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire
View Record
Samuel Clifton abt 1805 1872 Jan-Feb-Mar Newark Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire
View Record
Samuel Clifton abt 1806 1872 Oct-Nov-Dec Birmingham (1837-1924) Warwickshire
and only one in the correct quarter.
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The Birmingham one appears to be one I have seen on earlier cencii, a gunmaker born London, I can easily see the one born 1815 in Notts, on 1871 census, not so easily see the 1815 one. If Samuel did die in England then his death must have been registered.
Have you checked the overseas BMDs on Find My Past for a marriage/es and death?
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Have you been in touch with the guy at Bristol University who compiled this list?
http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~hirab/smp2.html
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Samuel was in army , then in hong Kong around the 1850 . i think he went to shanghai 1852. he was cashiered out in 1860. i do correspond with Bristol uni. sent Robert email last fortnite to let him know i had confirmed relation Samuel / Frances . had no reply as yet .
at time of Samuels 1872 death he was a merchant worth less than 20 pounds.. i think it must be the Birmingham one .
what is the usual way to find baptisms . i just keep getting brickwall. love all the added info tho makes a great picture . someone might write a book one day . china ,London , Spain and America political history and scandal.
jan
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hi. I thought it was the nov death only because it was the right 1/4 .i might look up the Jan 1/4 of 1873. he definitely had been living in China because i have the official Chinese paperwork declaring he died in england . unfortunately not where in england .
i don't know where he was born in england either but i don't think he was the gunsmith . thanks .
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SARAH CHEESEMAN JUTSUM 09 JUN 1837 Saint Luke, Chelsea
added ...just found that Sarah Cheeseman Jutson b 1837 died 1838 (IGI sub)
Deaths Q3 1838
Jutsum Sarah Cheeseman Kensington 3 168
wonder where the Cheeseman comes from ???
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Births Q3 1839 Jutsum Charles Frederick Kensington 3 217
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Cheeseman
http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Cheeseman
~~~~~~~~
also
BirthsQ2 1844
Jutsum Amy Lavinia Chelsea 3 43
& does he belong to you ?
Marriages Q3 1841
Jutsum Herbert Pots Lockie Westminster 1 406
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deleted ;D
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The problem with contacting anyone at a university at the moment is that it is the long summer break, and it's possible people might not be there until the end of September. Find my Past has British overseas BMD's
http://www.findmypast.com/BirthsMarriagesDeaths.jsp
With baptisms overseas it's a case of finding out where the registers are, if they are still in existance.
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Fredericka Do you have an LDS Family History centre anywhere near you? Looks like they have some Shanghai records.
China, Shang-hai Shih - Church records
Titles Kirchenbuch, 1933-1949 Evangelische Kirche Shanghai (China)
Marriages, 1907-1929 St. Andrew's Church (Shanghai, China : Church of England)
Marriages, 1910-1951 Holy Trinity Cathedral (Shanghai, China : Church of England)
Marriages, 1913-1951 Union Church (Shanghai, China)
Parish registers, 1849-1945 Church of England in China. Holy Trinity Cathedral (Shanghai)
Parish registers, 1906-1940 Church of England in China. St. Andrews Church (Shanghai)
Parish registers, 1934-1950 Church of England in China. Parish Church of Shantung Province
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thank you for that jay i will follow up.and also the uni news .
now i am being more specific with my research as usually i do it by memory. yee gads squeals from the structured ones among st us.
this is to try and narrow time line for Frances and Fredericka baptisms.
i have found letter from c.Jones and will quote a few lines.
it is to Maj-general h. Taylor horse guards . 26 July 1823.
in regards to Lavinia ,
mother kept boarding house in QUEENS ELM BROMPTON , I went to lodge there and there was connexion between myself and the daughter .
in the year 1816 the daughter and mother came to live with me in in a house belonging to me in Brompton .and continued to do so until i left them the following year."
So this means he was with Lavinia from about 1815 until 1817 .we know the children were born before 1821 because he is denying them in 1821 letter . he married in 1818 and was in germany before Feb 1819 .
we know that Fredericka was born in 1817 (from her gravestone ) and we know that Frances Augusta aka was born on the 26th of DEC ...don't know the year (from the 1839 letter wishing her well on her anniversary ).
So the address are from 1810ish =7 church st brompton , which may also be Queens elm i think .
then 1816 blizard pl which Lavinia remained in until her death 1866. surely we must be able to find baptisms . Lavinia was educated as a catholic . there is no mention in more recent history of family being catholic . Sarah was first buried in st Luke's Chelsea and Fredericka was married there in 1835 . But i have looked and looked . maybe new eyes . thanks frederickay.
PS . i think Fuseli threw the toys out of the cot in 1815 when the good looking hussar came on scene because he stopped painting her in 1815 .not to say that Fuseli at about 75 couldn't have been the father of Frederica . it would explain a lot of things about my family to any of you that look up fuseli......
Word of mouth historyand political leanings thru the family has always been that it was Jones.
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Frederick ralph caleb jutsum b. 1817 bond st . london .
the cheeseman family we have traced to kent .
always interested in any info.
jan
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just thought ill the LMA have anything ?
i s'pos you really need to know the parish and you do
when did directories start? i wonde rif brompton place appears in one of these from 1816
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Do we know who submitted the IGI entry for Lavinia fredericas birth (about 1814) and her marriage ??
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I think the being educated at a Catholic school may just be a bit of a red herring. At that time there would not be that many schools accepting girls and it's quite possible that the school was the closest to where they lived that a) accepted girls and b) had a good reputation. Even today this happens with faith schools if they have a good reputation and in the days of very little transport I think it could be even more applicable.
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hi ,yes i do know who submitted . unfortunately he has deceased . he was an unknown 2nd cousin and did a huge amount of research pre-computers . i corresponded with him regularly for 5 years . it was wonderful.
he knew there was a family relationship between the Jones and de irujo's but it has been only since the internet we have made all the contacts with universities , libraries and art galleries . the submission said "about 1814 ". i am going on the gravestone saying Frederica's age and the census I've seen that she was born 1817.
i haven't seen the originals for Frederica and Fred. jutsum 1841 census.
re the catholic school in Hammersmith . i do know that the count was catholic so i just assumed Lavinia was bought up catholic . maybe the records for the 1815-1818 baptisms are held somewhere else.
thanks all. Jan
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Do you have them in the 1871? Battersea,Mundip rd
Frederick age 57 general dealer born middlesex ?? can't make it out
Frederica age 54 born Fulham
Frances dau age 19 born Chelsea
Frederick age 16 Royal Navy born Chelsea.....RG10/701/80/51.
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could this be them in the 1841 under Jutras????
Frederick age 27 costermonger
Fredericka age 24
Ellen age 5
Charles age 2 living in Caroline place Chelsea.....HO107/687/8.
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This gives some information of the history of Roman Catholicism in Chelsea.http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=28726
Before 1837 marriages were only legal if performed in C of E churches, so even if ceremonies were carried out in R C churches then there also had to be a C of E ceremony. I'm trying to find out where St Mary's PR's are, will no success yet although I do know sometimes RC records are kept by the diocese.
Another article about R C PR's.
http://www.prtsoc.org.uk/misc_intro.php
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1811 london directoty.....is this charles?Captain C Jones ,5 upper Fitzroy street.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Irujo_y_Tac%C3%B3n
you probably have this
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Hi all
morning coffee time here :)
Hi Hepburn ... Yep that is them in 1841 under Jutras ...in 1851 they are under JutsAm. Found them yesterday. Frederica is very consistent with her age ...24 in 1841, 34 in 1851 and 54 in 1871.
I woke up last night and remembered I had seen something ...It's about the surname de Yrujo ..... it's most probably pronounced the Spanish way which would make the letter "Y" sound like a "H"...
what do you think?
deb
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Hi Deb,
I go along with that ;D.....what or who are we after now...I'm totally lost....something simple though ;D
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hi guys . i wrote reply its gone into ether . try again ,
Frances Augusta aka fanny must be married to Samuel Clifton by 1866 . (Lavinia's will )
i have 1861 census #3 Shirley villas Hanwell with MARY CLIFTON as HEAD BORN CHELSEA with her 6 children who are all born h.k or shanghai.
i know from archives and Chinese papers that these are the correct children . Samuel dies back in england in Nov 1872 (from Chinese papers and only says england ).he has left Frances back in China
the son Alfred dies in China1891 and Frances is still there .
two stepdaughters inherit . Bertha limby and Isabel Stockwell . the Stockwells move to Australia and Bertha limby was still in China .
so i am surmising after all that the Frances marries Samuel between 1861 -66. haven't found the marriage ever ....
Okay ...do I have this right ...
Mary Clifton (above) is Samuel Wife? She has to die so that he can marry Frances Augusta De Yrujo?
Why did Samuel leave his money to the step daughters? :-\ seems strange as he has other children ::)
Or am I totally confused?
deb
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what happened to the other children ?
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this might seem really dim but are we looking for Lavinias bp?
now her parents were not married
and thus she was porbbly bp. as a base born child under her mothers maiden name
have we covered this option already ?
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1881
Fredericka L. JUTSUM OR JATSUM
Wife
Mar.
Female
64
Ironer
B Chelsea, Middlesex, England
residence 9 Henry St, Battersea, Surrey, England
RG11/0639 47 18
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Maria Brasier JONES bur. in Suffolk in 1806
William Brasier JONES do. in 1846
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hi ,i am keeping a copy of all replies . :P
Clifton children in england 1861 with head of house Mary . they must have returned to China with Frances and Samuel by 1866. Samuel Clifton Sr.died in england 1872.
In 1891 ALFRED THEODORE SAMUEL CLIFTON son of Samuel died in China . his sisters inherited . Frances signed away her rights as next of kin.
Lavinia de irujo daughter of count de yrujo born 1794 was born in Oct 1794 and interestingly enough tho ill. was baptized DEC 1794 with both parents named( Charles and Sarah de irujo on baptism ) and Lavinia as Lavinia De yrujo.
I am not sure that is Charles Jones in Fitzroy but have noted it for further research ,
we are looking for BAPTISM of Lavinia Frederica and Frances Augusta de Irujo born between 1815 and 1821 at latest . Frederica in 1817 and Frances 26th DEC unknown year .
AND the baptism and family of Captain Charles Jones .
i am looking thru paperwork for anything to do with his "arms " as i recall it was exactly as i sent but did say "he was allowed to use JONES FROM LONDON ARMS "
yes it is confusing because I know so much but in fact the two simple things ...
Baptisms of Frances and Lavinia Frederica de yrujo and their father Charles Jones i don't have .
thanks everyone .
f.
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Still on same family but wider net . Can we find anyhting out about
SARAH KNIGHT. i will copy the "times " article for your interest.
She gave birth to Lavinia de yrujo at the spanish embassey in 1794.
She lived at 6 blizard place in 1841 census as Sarah de yrujo. (census born out of county ) she died 8th of 1841. i make her birth date 1766. she was interedd at st lukes but her headstone is at Brompton cemetery .
the article will make greta reading .it is to come .
thnaks jan
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Good Morning All - :)
Fred asked me to put this on for you
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to the Times Digital search-engine, on which you can do word-searches of the contents as
far back as 1785, here's further news of Lavinia's mother.
Some background needed:
In the 1790s the Spanish embassy was a great mansion in Manchester Square just to the north of
Oxford St (probably the house where a few years later the Prince Regent used to visit his fat
mistress the Marchioness of Hertford, and which is now the Wallace Collection).
The ambassador was the Marquis del Campo, and de Irujo was high up in his staff. Postings
followed in the US and South America, and by 1818 the Marquis de Casa Irujo (as The Times calls
him) was in the Madrid cabinet, and responsible for trying to cope with the rebellions breaking out in
most of Spain's colonies (under Bolivar, etc). In 1823 he became prime minister, so he was highly
newsworthy.
The Times of 16 December 1823 has this dramatic anecdote about him --
'The Marquis del Campo ... had a brilliant establishment in London, and young Irujo was Secretary
of Legation. He became acquainted with a young woman, and desirous of obtaining her favours at a
cheap rate, he borrowed a livery coat from one of the ambassador's servants, and under this
disguise and a borrowed name he continued his amours. At last he suddenly deserted the girl, who,
fired with resentment, and possibly dreading a visit from the parish-officers, flew to the
ambassador's door and demanded an interview with her faithless paramour, whose remarkable
person she described. The porter in vain declared that no such footman lived there, and proceeded
to turn her out, but the noise and confusion were so great that the ambassador and all his
establishment flew to the hall, and among them the wicked Lothario. The girl instantly seized upon
him, loaded him with invectives - when lo! it turned out that the livery servant was no other than the
Secretary of Legation! The circumstance got wind at the time and afforded a good deal of merriment
in the diplomatic circles. Queen Charlotte is said frequently to have rallied the Marquis del Campo,
with whom he was a great favourite, on this passage of his secretary's life.'
The phrase 'possibly dreading a visit from the parish-officers' is an indirect way of saying she was
pregnant. Parish-officers were much concerned about not being burdened with the expense of
bastardsd.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow, what an interesting family
DebbieG
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Finding Sarah's baptism is I think going to be impossible. We have the whole of England except Middlesex to think about and girls were even then attracted to London from all over England. I have exactly the same problem with one of my ancestors, not born in county in 1841 and died before 1851, and as well in my case someone has submitted an entry on Familysearch saying he was baptized in the place he died in. No he wasn't I have been through the PR's with a fine tooth comb.
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Well I am still trying with the Jones family from Sudbury area
The last couple of days I have been going through records which have Jones & Sudbury on them.
There seems to have been a family who were brewers, victuallers etc and then farmers, at first
I dismissed them as not 'high' enough for what we are looking for,
but today I found the following in a Suffolk old newspaper site
February 2nd 1814
The late Mr Jones a brewer of Sudbury began life with a small
property but by great assiduity is supposed to have left 200, 000
pounds.
So I looked again - This William was buried in 1814 at St Peters in Sudbury
aged 74 - St Peters is not in the IGI except for a few extracts from the BTs
from the PRO - this is unfortunately not a PRO will that you can download for 3.50
though it seems you can get jpgs of the documents for 8.50
Signed will of William Jones, common brewer, merchant and farmer,
of Sudbury, Suff, William Jones et al v John Jones
(dorse: 9 July 1816, 21 July 1819. Proved 21 July 1819)
Covering dates 1814 Jan 29
Also this one
Prerogative Court of Canterbury: Allegations PROB 18/119/7Probate
lawsuit Jones and others v Jones and others, concerning the deceased
William Jones, common brewer, merchant and farmer, of Sudbury,
Suffolk. Allegation . Probate lawsuit Jones and others v Jones and
others, concerning the deceased William Jones, Date: 1817.
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives
I also found a document in the Essex archives site reffering to this
will and the provision William made in it for his illegitimate daughter Hannah Wright
So it seems there was a dispute over Williams will and £200,000 in those day is an awful lot of money.
Now if Charles were connected to these people the timing would be about right for his purchase of property in Holstein
Oh and I also found The Grove Ballington in 1851 the head is a Robert Allen a merchant & maltster employing 50 men & 20 boys
so certainly at that time the property had a connection to brewing
DebbieG
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jay , i think you are right . if we can't find peeps we know where ,when and to whom , (Frances and Fredericka de irujo )guess finding Sarah knight would be impossible .
the article is great tho isn't it . what a woman .the marquis moved her into the embassy( according to Schriff the professor who studied Fuseli )/she then went on to make capt. Jones life a misery when he seduced her daughter Lavinia .apparently chasing thru the streets and clubs with vollies of abuse . all amazing considering she was of servant stock . can you imagine .?
It really is an amazing novel in the making and we haven't moved on to the Marquis marrying Sarah Mckean the daughterThomas Mckean, the Governor of Philadelphia and Signor of the declaration of independence .
As i write it i smile with embarrassment that you all think i am making it up.
ps. thats great deb.g. thank you for putting up the article . well that could be our man also aren't we looking at Wright . i have written to Eaton but they are away till 4th Aug . ooohh i want to read you post ...Jan .
PS . i might have got the attitude but i didn't get the title or the MONEY .
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Frederickay...........there's just no way anyone could make up something like that.....It's just brilliant.
What a family.......... ;D ;D Wish mine were half as interesting...... :)
Barbara
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I have just looked what the equivalent of £200.000 would be in todays money...... something over 11 million pounds. No wonder there were court proceedings, nothing like a lot of money to bring everyone and everything out of the woodwork.
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Going thru notes in my work book
William brasier Jones ELDEST son of William Jones .49 when died 1846so he must have been born 1797... my notation ...maybe cousin of capt. Jones .
in a2a. file -abstract
t he Woodhall estate in Acton ,long melford ,sudbury and BALLINGDON (ess)reciting deeds 23-10-1778 in regards to William brasier Jones .
remembering Ernest mentions the "grove " there is a posh house known as "BALLINGDON grove " in sudbury .
but getting my heads out of the 11 million dollar clouds i found this in my work book .
Saffron Walden 1841
THE GROVE> William Jones ... schoolteacher and his family . see we go round in circles but i don't actually know where Saffron is /
bye Jan
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Saffron Walden is about 40k from Sudbury on the road to Cambridge.
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Saffron Walden is in Essex - so it is possible,
but comming back to Charles and his military service, he really would have needed some serious money behind him to be an officer in the Hussars. In those days the officers had to pay for all their own uniforms & equipment and a hussar regiment would have meant having 4 horses (and paying someone to look after them). On top of all that any rank had to be purchased which was not cheap either.
I have quite and interest in this period and was actually at both the battles of Corunna and Waterloo, with my OH ( a sergeant in the Coldstream Guards)
:)
Debbie
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hi debs . your post below has me puzzled :o :o.
do you have a time machine and if so can i have a turn ?
"
did you go to a re enactment .
i have Captain Jones diary of the corunna retreat . he was the adjutant .
it is wonderfully interesting and i owe you plenty,i could send it to you via email ?
Jan
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:)
Sorry should have said the re-enactments of the battles (2002 & 2004)
There is a group actually re-enacting the 15 Hussars at that period - it might be worth E-mailing them to see if any of their members do research into the personnel of the regiment, we have all sorts of stuff on the Coldstreamers because that is OH's interest but can't help much with cavalry regiments
You could try John Lander at The Fifteenth (King’s) Light Dragoon (Hussars) re-enactment group
John Lander e-troop@xvld.org
DebbieG
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hi thanks . will do . i have tried before also the 15th hussar reg museum last month but no interest or reply . i have quite a bit of social history for them . i will contact that man tomorrow .and send you the diary .
anyway . Jones =
2nd Lt= 23-07 1807.
Lt. = 10-03-1808.
Royal milt. chronicle Oct 7 1813 reports ;
to be Captain of the troops without purchase Lt. and adjutant c. Jones s.
h.p. 29-3-1821 .
i have no idea when he became a Major . i think he was a brigade major for the 5th at Waterloo.
Also only have his will dated 1829 to say he was in 37th Chelsea reg.
Jan
Jan
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Here are a couple of pics - for interest sake. The first is Corunna, the actual battle site, the second is my brave lads outside Hougoment at Waterloo
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Hmm interesting that his captaincy was without purchase.
I don't have any info on the 37th. OH says he was doing well to still be alive then after being in the Hussars, they were known for being very dareing (or as OH says - complete loonys).
He may have taken on a rank and role specificly for Waterloo as there was a shortage of officer problem for that battle, because the war on the continent was considered over with Bonapart captured many of the top people were sent to America to try and sort out the revolution over there, so when Boney escaped a lot of the people Wellington wanted with his troops were still overseas
:)
DebbieG
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http://www.gunboatempires.com/Genealogy/McKean0000.htm
McKean tree
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hi thank you for that link . i must admit it is only my step side of the family BUT as a Wharton ..DNA tested proof ... i am directly related genetically to t he Wharton's of Philadelphia . business school , governor's and eminent peeps . i think i should have the key to t he city . i have a full Wharton tree from Kirby Stephan Westmoreland and haven't personally connected to America but American Wharton's did DNA to my English family and i think it was 23 out of 25 points ? to connect us to Rachael and Thomas Wharton of Philly.
oh to be a one name study eh ?
always happy to share ? Some of the money thats been around would be nice to lol
I have never been to states but with mckean , wharton and de irujo interests i should ?
Jan
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Hi - just been going through some of the military bits of this with OH - and he pointed out that the bit " 37th Chelsea" isn't right. We think it is the fault of the PRO site not useing enough punctuation - and it means he was a captain in the 37th and he was living in Chelsea. There is only one 37th, it is a line regiment
and the full title is 37th North Hampshire regement of foot.
I wonder when he transferred to them and what officer listings they have?
.
anyway . Jones =
2nd Lt= 23-07 1807.
Lt. = 10-03-1808.
Royal milt. chronicle Oct 7 1813 reports ;
to be Captain of the troops without purchase Lt. and adjutant c. Jones s.
h.p. 29-3-1821 .
i have no idea when he became a Major . i think he was a brigade major for the 5th at Waterloo.
Also only have his will dated 1829 to say he was in 37th Chelsea reg.
Jan
Jan
DebbieG
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I wonder if Fredericka has downloaded this?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=6789543&queryType=1&resultcount=70
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Are these Cliftons ours......RG9/781/117/33.bornin Shangai
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Do we know what year Fanny married Samuel Clifton........could she have been married to someone before him?
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hi all. update .
!>Was fanny married before =
Fanny may have been married before but who and when don't know ?
in 1839 her father Jones is extolling her " virtue " so i may have taken it to literally. she is reciting poetry with her mother at a soiree...(doesn't sound married ??).
2.
Address for 15th reg re enactment group.
i have emailed john Landers .
3 Has fred. downloaded this . Waterloo medals roll.
I have in past, had contact with someone with the Waterloo Roll.
I can get friend to order anything from a2a if i am pointed to right thing to get .
4. When did Frances marry Samuel Clifton ?
If Mary Clifton is the wife of Samuel ..1861 census says she is Head of house ...
with all his (definitely his ) children in the census.
and the Lavinia's WILL has him and Frances in Shanghai in 1866 Frances must have married him between 1861-and 1866.
i wonder if we can find a shipping list .?
5 . A valid comment from Debs .
Lord Braybrook surname is Neville .Has Ernest assumed she was lord braybrook rellie .? there are a lot of Braybrooke 's in Sudbury area .
the Lord Braybrook relationship to Charles first wife may be a red herring .Why i have tried to find her is, if i found her tree it might have a branch for Charles Jones family.
I have studied the Annesley tree and haven't found him tho we know without a doubt he married Charlotte matilda Annesley d /o Alexander Annesley =Hyde hall Herts .
6 The relationship with the Woodhall Jones is mentioned in 1839 diary by Ernest.
i still think that the Woodhall Jones are very close to what we are looking for ( because of the money ,the link between ballingdon Grove and brewing and also from the 1839 diary ) but earlier notes worry me .
7.IF William Brasier Jones is marrying Hannah Wright 23 Aug.1823 @ st >Greg .
WHY is William Jones in the Essex archives (Debbie g found ) leaving his "Ill. daughter Hannah Wright " money . :o :o. ::) ::)
I am starting to think it must be a second Jones family and maybe he has married his COUSIN !
.and i know that William Brasier Jones is NOT Charles Jones brother because Will is born in 1790s and Charles in 1783. William B. Jones is the ELDEST son mentioned in William Jones notes . so in fact there may be THREE JONES families connected in the saga .
this is going to chewed like a bone for next some years .
thanks guys .
a very tired Fred ,and man has this topic covered a lot of ground . keep it up .......
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Another family mystery . John milner Wharton
in The Times .Fri.April 22nd 1853 .pg. 8 issue 21409. col.c. he stole 5 pounds . he was not transported
or hung .
Anyone have any way of finding the sentence .
also i know he stayed in paddington area . his wife is Margret. could anyone find the 1851/61 census please.
he is my g.g.grandfather from Kirby Stephan .
Jan
p.s. bit of a comedown from marquis ,200,000 pound brewers and governor's of Philadelphia eh Wat ?
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Good Morning - it seems that William Brasier Jones did have a brother Charles though - just not the Charles we are looking for
Hi - I really wanted to find some more on this so I downloaded the
1835 will of William Jones, Gent of Sudbury
It turns out to be the Will of William Jones the father of William Brasier
I wasn't sure it would be because this William who died in 1835 was buried in Sudbury St
Peters Sudbury (aged 64 so born 1771), but his wife Jemima was buried
at St Gregorys Sudbury 1831 aged 60, it just seemed strange for husband and wife to be buried in different places.
I have had a quick scan through the will (copy on the way to Fred)
as far as I can see it doesn't mention by name all his children. Just Son Charles
& daughter Naamah Jones who are his executors, and daughter Jemima Adkin, and grandaughter
Emma Edkin. It also mentions a house in the occupation of widow Brazier in Colchester in Essex
I already knew he had
William Brasier Jones b 1797
Jemima born 1800 - married Thomas Adkin 1818
Abigail born 1804 - married James Hagne Angier (a doctor, they lived in Ipswich)
Diana born 1809 - died 1822
Naamah born 1818 - married 1835 Henry Meeking
It seems he also had a son Charles who was born about 1807 according to the census
who had a farm of 365 acres at Clare, Suffolk. I wonder if son Charles is named
after his Uncle Charles, it seems possible.
Having said all this I am not sure it helps us much as I can't find a likly baptism
for a William Jones born around 1771, in Sudbury. It is so frustrating not to be
able to check the baptisms for St Peters, the other church in Sudbury - I can't find them
on line at all. All I have for that church is the burials from 1800 (NBI).
Debbie
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hi i think we are going to break this . i have thought ' if the relationship between this families are as this is written exactly .
_____________________________________________________ Quote .
1.
my paternal grandfather had estates at SUDBURY in Suffolk ,the GROVE ,the CROTE houses at STRATFORD.
___________________________________________________________2nd_HIS great uncle was a JONES of WOODHALL Suffolk (? Ernest's ? )._
__________________________________________________________
1 .is Ernest talking about his ,the paternal grandfather's great uncle of woodhall or
2.Is he asking about his father Charles's great Uncle Jones of Woodhall.._
Immediately before both quotes he is talking about his father's family belonging to the town of Clare .
on the map , Clare ,colne, ballingdon Grove, long Melton are all v.close as the crow flies .
i had it worked out in my mind ha-ha.
Charles Jones grandfather was the brother of Jones of woodhall. ??? any takers ... and from Debbie g. there is the name Charles in common . what do you all think . so now we need to find Jones of woodhalls tree and brother ??? simple .lol
thanks guys. every little bit counts
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the sort of thing sent to annoy us.. no dates ...no idea where i got it. note on scrap of paper
Charles garret jones s/o Charles jones esq. born @ clare Suffolk . i bet this is son of the Charles born 1807 to william and jemimina .
dummie....
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a few more snippits
from the Gentlemans magazine 1830
married at Pentlow Charles the 3rd son of William Jones of Woodhall to Miss Elizabeth Garrett of Pentlow Mill.
1841 census Clare
Charles 30 farmer Y
Elizabeth 30 Y
William 7 Y
Emma 5 Y
Fanny 3 Y
Charles 2 Y
N.B. Clare parish records are not in the IGI either
I am sure I saw in passing a couple of days ago whilst searching that Elizabeth the wife of Charles Jones of Clare died aged 40 of Consumption. He is with a different wife - Margaret by the 1881 census
DebbieG
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note the garrett. must be charles garrett jones parents . we are closing in on them . all we need nowis their cousin my CHARLES JONES.
you are like a terrier debs . jan
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I do try ;D
Charles Garrett Jones went into the church and spent some time abraod - from Cambridge Alumni
Name: Charles Garrett. Jones
College: CAIUS
Entered: Michs. 1860
More Information: Adm. pens. (age 21) at CAIUS, June 26, 1860. S. of Charles, Esq. B. at Clare, Suffolk. Schools, Ipswich and private. Matric. Michs. 1860. Resided two years. Afterwards at Trinity College, Toronto, Canada. Ord. deacon (Toronto) 1867; priest, 1868. I. of Port Whitby, Canada, 1868; of Pickering, 1869-70. C. of Bessingham, Norfolk, 1870. C. of Felsham, Suffolk, 1871. R. of Magdalen-Laver, Essex, 1872-92. Resided subsequently at Clare Lodge, Eastbourne. (Venn, II. 350; Crockford.)
Debbie
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IGI entry....Michael Jones married Mary New 12 feb' 1781 Bray ,Berkshire...
were Charles's parents Michael and Mary?or am I getting confused...Is Berkshire a place where he could have been born?
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Good Morning Hepburn
I suppose that Charles's parents could be Michael & Mary - we don't know who his parents were - but Michael is not a name that shows in up in known later generations of the family, also they seem to be fro Suffolk not Berkshire so I don't think that fits
Debbie
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Deb,
I'm getting confused! who's this Mary Clifton in the census,with children born in China,is she married to our Samuel?
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I found an obituary for Michael Jones FSA in 1852 and it mentions his elder brother who in 1815 was captain Charles Jones (so before he got promoted further). This Michael was born about 1776 - so the dates work. His father was another Michael Jones of Caton in Lancashire and his mother was Mary (nee Smith would you believe) who was first married to Edward Coyney). The article mentions all sorts of other relies going quite a bit back and concludes that in 1815 Captain Charles Jones was the heir to the barony of Scrope of Bolton
Deb, is this the Michael and Mary we are after?......I'll get it right in a minute ;D
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Hi Hepburn
I found that Jones family a few days ago, (I think its on page 2 or 3 of this thread) but when I investigated further it turned out to be a different Captain Jones, with a toltally different son - I don't think they are connected to the ones we are looking for - it is so difficult with such a common name. I don't know about the Cliftons - I haven't been working on them I've been concetrating on the Jones's - hopefully one of the others will be along later to help
Debbie
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Oh, "£$%^&, ;D....
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Do you think it would be worth putting a thread on the Suffolk board to see if anyone has access to the PR's that are not on IGI?
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I think that is a good idea - I would so love to know if what we are looking for is in the St Peters registers for Sudbury - I can't find any way to get to them without going to the RO, and I'm too far away
DebbieG
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Where is Lavinia.......1841 zilch.....1851 zilch.....1861 zilch..???
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I think she is on 1851 as Lavenia Jones ( image is Lavinia) HO107/1473/449/13. Living in Chelsea, but she says married and is a needlewoman.
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thanks Jay..
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Hi all
:)
hepburn ... I think that Mary Clifton with kids born in China is the first wife of Samuel Clifton who married Frances Augusta. I have looked for their marriage but cannot find it! >:( :( I wonder if they married overseas. Perhaps Mary Clifton died and the kids went back to be with their dad...If we could find frances augusta in 1861 , that may help ...or did I find her as Fanny Jones ... need to reread. :P
deb
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Is it feasible Fanny was governess/nursemaid to Samuels chidren after Mary died,and so he married her...
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hi guys , got disconnected there for a while .
Lavinia deyrujo was always at 6 blizard place Brompton tho it changed to 123 fulham road . in 1841 she is on census as Lavinia Jones so it is quite likely she is Lavinia Jones in 1851 . i will check my notes .
With fanny marrying Samuel... it is interesting that Mary Clifton is born in Chelsea . i wonder if Frances and her were friends ?
Samuel is cashiered out of the Shanghai police force .1860.
the records are at kew ..he was cleared of charges .
pro kew fo/97/108 articles about trial. also the North china herald 1860.
i can get a relative to go to kew for Samuel's papers and papers about c. Jones at same time .
i don't know how to find the
North China Herald .
also Was he tried in China ? and did he send family back to England in shame . the children definitely went back to china .
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going back to William brasier Jones re Captain Charles Jone s.
In my notes .
~~~~~~~~
a2a
Land in st Greg .mainly in nth meadow.
Sudbury common lands 1762-1876
1850ee 501/6/96
File-Abstract of the title of henry tiffen and Thomas Meeking (trustees of the will of William b Jones Esq )to the Woodhall estate in ACTON _Long Melford - SUDBURY and BALLINGDON ess .) reciting deeds
23-10-1778
20th Jan 1849 Ref ee /501/6/96.
~~~~~~~~-------
Now why i have written this down who knows or in what context other than i have had a mind set for some time, that w.b Jones was of importance in the search . the main thing is a few years ago i read about the Jones of ACTON in relation to my Charles Jones so i am now going to spend the day searching google etc . if you have any ideas pls. let me know .
It is interesting that there is a contention of William Jones snr . will. if Captain Charles Jones has contested it and failed maybe that is why he never mentions his family to anyone including his son Ernest.
today is my last scavenger hunt . certainly deserves applaud . the number of hits and replies .mmmmwh. :-* :-*
Jan
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Jan,
have you checked this one.....1841 census Chelsea.Fanny Jones born about 1821,living on her own,can't make out what it says.....HO107/687/7
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the address is Dracot place...I think..also it says I think,"Ind'" meaning she has her own money...
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I have just been a bit cheeky and PM'd someone from the Suffolk board who has previously done a Sudbury (St Peters) look-up to see if they could possibly check to see if Charles is there in the baptisms - I will let you know if they get back to me
:)
DebbieG
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Debbie,
do you think it's possible Fanny was married before marrying Samuel,she'd be in her 40s it sound a bit old for her first marriage!!!
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Hi Hepburn - I would say it is definitly possible, it would explain why we can't find that marriage, but what name did she use :-\ no-one seems to have spotted it
Debbie
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If thats her in the 1841 .Kensington and Chelsea (Draycott place)..what would her registration district be??any ideas?
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I would have thought Chelsea ??
DebbieG
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DOH........I'm a dork....What I meant to ask is Where would she have married..
would it have come under Kensington ..
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Genuki has a a St Lukes Kensington,if she's in the parish of St Lukes her mother was as well..
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found a marriage in Clare for a Joseph Jones of Langley in Essex to an Eleanor Oliver of Clare,married 12 Aug' 1781 in Clare.....it would fit but thats about it...
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Hi Hepburn
I checked out the NBI Clare is on there from 1750 but the only Jones (there are only 5) burials are later and all seem to relate to James Jones (b abt 1808) the son of William Jones (b 1771) and his family, I am still hopeing that something will turn up to prove that Freds, Charles is a brother of this elder William. I think Fred said she had a family member who could go to Kew for her so she may be able to get them to look at the documents I found references for concerning the 1815 will of another William Jones of Sudbury who I think may prove to be related to them all, or of course depending on finances she may decide to download them herself
DebbieG
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Thank -you for your persistence ladies /gentleman .
i have often thought Frances Jones was married before ,but
because,
i have trawled b.m.d.
. i have gone thru every Frances in Chelsea ,
every f.Augusta in Bmd
,every Frances in Chelsea on ANCESTRY >
COM
but if Jonesy (Dad ) is extolling her "virtues " even going onto say with the sort of upbringing she had ",
that i had taken it literally Virtue = virginity or young Sweet and in noncent therefore NOT MARRIED . the letter was dated 1839 so then any marriage should be in the B.M.D. post 1837.
it is v. difficult because one transcription mistakes .
two Lavinia (her mother )has used three names .
we were bought up with Frederica as Frederica de yrujo in our FAMILY LORE .
I spent all day yesterday looking for Jones of Acton , got exhausted and didn't find a thing . thanks again .
jan
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Good Morning - Fredrickay asked me to put this document scan up - to do with Frances Augusta in China, sorry its not too clear
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Hi everyone.........it's time for the new Scavenger Hunt so here it is.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,318126.0.html
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
Good luck, good hunting.
Barbara
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;) Hi Jan,
So sorry I have been away and missed it.. Have skipped through this very interesting hunt.
Did the Turners mean the family of Artist Joseph MW Turner? with the portraits and all? He was in Chelsea...
Lesanne.
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Hi, can anyone tell me what happened to the daughter of Bertha, Madelina S Limby? My reason for asking is that I'm trying to trace a Madeline Ethel Limby who married Ernest Harry Douglas Derrick in Shanghai in 1907. Ernests brother the found of a solicitors firm that has now evolved to become part of Ernst & Young.
I've found records of Ernest travelling to Singapore with his work and he gives a home address of Goldaming Surrey. I also have Ethel travelling alone on one occassion in 1910, possibly to visit family. All of Ernests siblings were at one point and another in Singapore working or in his sisters cases marrying over there.
I got Madelina's name from the 1901 census entry, is it possible that Madelina and Madeline are the same person? I have never found a birth for Madline Ethel Limby in the UK and have looked at overseas records but to no avail. i know Bertha had a sister called Madeline. Thanks
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It's not the actual battlesite - its the open area around the lighthouse, it being the only space for miles not entirely covered with hideous concrete housing estates (including, sadly, the battlefield around Elvina).
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charles jones was born in 1776 and died on 16,2,1843. his first wife was frances howard married in 1816 and dies 1818 with 1 child calle francis augusta (fanny), second wife was charlotte matilda annesley born 1780 and died 30,8,1845 i isleworth. chil was ernesrt chrles whom married jane gibsin atherley whom gave 4 kids she die 1857 then ernest gor marries again with 3 more.
will post more later
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charles jones was born in 1776 and died on 16,2,1843. his first wife was frances howard married in 1816 and died 1818 with 1 child called francis augusta (fanny), second wife was charlotte matilda annesley born 1780 and died 30,8,1845 in isleworth. child was ernest charles whom married jane gibson atherley whom gave 4 kids she died 1857 then ernest got married again with 3 more kids.
will post more later
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little more on my family, ernest was born and christened in berlin born 25,1,1819, christened on 20,6,1819 and died in manchester on 296,1,1869.
charles, not much info but of welsh extraction from a norman family but settled in suffolk. joined 15 hussars as a private in 1795. was troop quartermaster 23,7,1807. adjutant 27,8,1807. lieutenant 10,3,1808. captain 7,10,1813, brigade major, grant hussar brigade 1813-14..brigade major 5th brigade 1915. reappointed to 15 hussar as captain on25,3,1817 and to 37th foot on 29,3,1821. half pay as captain with the yorks 29,3,1821 dropped from pay list 1841.
hope this is of interest
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Hi Colinabarker, A very warm welcome to Rootschat, I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself here. :) I've sent you a PM regarding the Scavenger Hunts.
Barbara
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Hi, can anyone tell me what happened to the daughter of Bertha, Madelina S Limby? My reason for asking is that I'm trying to trace a Madeline Ethel Limby who married Ernest Harry Douglas Derrick in Shanghai in 1907. Ernests brother the found of a solicitors firm that has now evolved to become part of Ernst & Young.
I've found records of Ernest travelling to Singapore with his work and he gives a home address of Goldaming Surrey. I also have Ethel travelling alone on one occassion in 1910, possibly to visit family. All of Ernests siblings were at one point and another in Singapore working or in his sisters cases marrying over there.
I got Madelina's name from the 1901 census entry, is it possible that Madelina and Madeline are the same person? I have never found a birth for Madline Ethel Limby in the UK and have looked at overseas records but to no avail. i know Bertha had a sister called Madeline. Thanks
Hello Mygenes2006,
I found your message after doing a search on the surname Limby. I was doing a quick look on the off chance I might find any information about the recipients of a set of twelve Edwardian postcards I purchased in Eastbourne earlier this month.
They were all addressed to Miss Hilda Limby and/or Miss Madeline Limby, 2 May Villas, Enys Road, Camborne, Cornwall and are postmarked 1903. The sender of all but one was their "coz" (cousin I presume) Colin (last name not given). Colin refers to "Aunt Bertie" which could be a familiar for Bertha?
I had posted the photo sides of the postcards to my Flickr account giving details of the family information from the messages. A Flickr contact identified the family from the 1901 census, including the girls' older brother Shirley, "Shirls" in the PC messages. He noted that the family were listed as having been born in Shanghai, China.
He also mentioned later references he had found to Major Shirley O. Limby, R.E.
Let me know if you would like more details or the Flickr info to view the cards.
Cheers, Hubba
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Hi Hubba, those sound amazing. Would you believe that Madeline's son is still alive and now in his 90's, I am sure he too would love to view the cards. I am in contact with his son so will let him know also. Is there anyway you could scan them in and email them? I don't know much about flicker as I have never used it but am more than happy to give it a try. If I view them on there can I then download them as images? This is so that I can then forward them onto the grandson who can print them out to show his parents (yes they are both still alive) or he can at least take a laptop and show them on there.
Madeline's family history is quite interesting and I would be happy to tell you more about her and her family if you would like to know. I have put togehter a word document which is like a booklet about her and her ancestors and would be happy to email it to you if you PM me your email address.
Thank you for going to so much effort to trace the individuals mentioned. The lady Jan who set up this hunt will also be interested I am sure as she is related through Bertha. I shall look forward to hearing from you soon. You can email me direct at (*) Best wishes, Claire p.s. I did try to PM you but your inbox is full I think as it said one of us has reached the max and I don't think it is me..but i could be wrong!
Moderator comment: Email address removed in accordance with Rootschat policies
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Hi , would love to be able to access these .
yes it is the limby family from Shanghai .....
the Colin is Colin stockwell (son of Dr James stockwell and Isobel Clifton ).
He went on to be a Major and editor of the Tsingtoa press ...
I believe the Shirley mentioned may have died in the war ..
i would love to read them .
What great fortune
frederickay..
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Hi Hubba
Welcome to Rootschat ;D and thanks for joining in.
New members need to make a few posts before they can send and receive personal messages (PM)
Please make another post so that you activate the personal message system, then you can exchange email addresses off-forum.
Dawn
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Hello to all, I have replied to frederickay by direct email with instructions on joining flickr (opening a free account) which will enable you to view the Limby postcards and read the messages which are on the reverse. The settings to my account do not allow my scans and photos to be found by a simple websearch. This is to avoid having people harvest the images in my photostream and use them in compilations of images which they pilfer and sell for profit.
I take it that I can't send personal messages yet on RootsChat until I have posted a few more messages?
Frederickay - please feel free to forward my email to you on to mygenes2006.
It was another gentleman on flickr who was kind enough to search for the Limbys in the census and told me that they were Shanghai born. This led me to enter a google search for Limby + Shanghai and presto I found your messages on RootsChat so I thought I'd join in and let you know what I had in case there was any interest.
Flickr membership ties in nicely with an interest in history and vintage photographs. Tons of great images to be browsed there on any topic one can imagine. Do take a look. If you post any images/photos of your own you have the option to make them visible with varying degrees of privacy and can limit them to friends only or family only if you wish. No obligation to post anything if one joins - one can simply browse and build a collection of favourites to review at any time if desired.
I can see I'll have to venture into my own and my wife's family trees here as well some time.
Wonderful to know that Madeline's son is still living. Perhaps he'll know how the cards wound up in an Eastbourne antique shop. There are probably a few more Limby postcards left if you are in that area. I didn't buy all that were there.
Cheers, Hubba
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Hi Hubba
You should have enough posts now, have a try, you should need 3 but it sometimes works with 2.
If you let us know whether it works or not, you'll definitely have 3.
Dawn
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Saffron Walden is in Essex - so it is possible,
*snip*
Saffron Walden (more specifically Audley End) is linked to the Barons Braybrooke. So if the Jones were linked to this family, this could be a possible link.
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Although I do not know who Frances Howard (first wife of Maj. Charles Jones) is the daughter of, we do know she is a niece of the Provost of Eton and a relation of the Barons Braybrooke.
The Griffin family (Lords Braybrooke) were descended from the Howard family. Edward Griffin, Lord Griffin of Braybrooke married Lady Essex Howard, daughter of James Howard, 3rd Earl of Suffolk, 3rd Lord Howard de Walden, and Lady Susanna Rich (daughter of Henry Rich, Earl of Holland).
James Griffin, 2nd Lord Braybrooke (son of the above) had a daughter Elizabeth Griffin, Countess of Portsmouth. She married Henry Neville, later Grey. His sister was Catherine Neville and she married Richard Aldworth, of Stanlake. Their son was Richard Aldworth, later Aldworth-Neville, M.P. and it was his son Richard Aldworth Neville, that became 2nd Lord Braybrooke.
The link is quite distant though.
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Interesting because i had tracked her down to be the daughter of Thomas dampier .. bishop of Ely and grand daughter of ? Slee ..
why i have done that has now escaped me ....
i was unable to find her existence or name but for some reason had pursued that line which of course makes her last name DAMPIER not Howard .
For some reason ..possibly her death ?not being until in 1818 ? precluded him from his very formal marriage in 1818 to Charlotte Annesley . Also ..
There is a second captain Charles Jones .. bro of sir tyrwitt Jones from the north and i surmised Frances was his wife .
the original words of Ernest Jones \Son of ( Charles Jones 1783-1843 ..my gggggreat grandfather )are exactly as you have written them ..
" " niece of provost of Eton .. rel;ation of the Braybrook es."
I will start again on your line of investigation ...... also will look up why i thought thomas dampier was the father .. oh why don't i keep better records and sources ..... thank you tho..
frederickay
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Ah, well if Frances Howard was the wife of a different Charles Jones, that would make sense.
The marriage in 1816 is on the IGI. I know there are some Google Books available that cover St. George's, Hanover Square and quite often they're annotated with notes.
I did just find the following though:
JOSEPH GOODALL
Spouse: JOYCE JONES
Marriage: 16 JUN 1828 at Isleworth, London, England
Any use?
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It seems Thomas Dampier, D.D., bishop of Ely married Elizabeth Sleech, a daughter of Henry Sleech and his wife, a sister of Dr. William Cooke, provost of King's College, Cambridge and former-headmaster of Eton College (but not a Provost).
Stephen Sleech, however, was a Provost of Eton. He's presumably a relation of Henry Sleech.
n.b. both Jonathan Davies and Joseph Goodall were Headmasters of Eton College.
Dr. William Cooke married Catherine Sleech, daughter of Rev. Richard Sleech, Canon and Prebendary of Windsor.
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One last post and one that may be of worth in the future.
Richard Griffin Neville, 3rd Lord Braybrooke, M.A., D.C.L. married Lady Jane Cornwallis, daughter of Charles Cornwallis, 2nd Marquess Cornwallis and Lady Louisa Gordon.
Sir Charles Cornwallis, 2nd Marquess Cornwallis, 3rd Earl of Cornwallis (1774-1823) was son of Gen. Charles Cornwallis, Marquess Cornwallis, 2nd Earl of Cornwallis (1738-1805 -- and an old Etonian) and his wife Jemima Tulikens Jones, daughter of Capt. James Jones and Mary Tulikens. They married on 14 July 1768.
James Cornwallis, 4th Earl of Cornwallis was Dean of Windsor and Durham and so there could be a link there.
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Jemima Tulikens Jones was sister of Arnoldus Jones, later Skelton, of Branthwaite Hall, Cumberland.
I am not sure therefore if she is from the same Jones family that you are seeking. Branthwaite Hall was inherited by Capt. James Jones from the Skelton family but they never married into the Jones family. As to where Capt. James Jones originated, I have yet to determine.
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hi thank you for all your looking . wouldn't Charles Jones have it plastered all over the news and records if he had come from such an illustrious family ?
i have wondered if he was related to William Jones in sudbury Suffolk . i think he was a self made man in the brewery . a kind rootschatter found where William Jones was worth 200,000 pounds at his death sometime in early 1820ish .
this will was challenged . i don't know the details but i wondered if my Charles Jones had got an inheritance which he had argued about and then been told to leave the family fold . there is never rany mention of his family ... Ernest diary of 1837 had notes in back . even Ernest didn't know where his father came from but thought it was Suffolk..
you have got me going again now .. i am determined . thank you .
Jan
i will follow your line of thought as well.. a coffee is required ..
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As a point of interest, the Cornwallis family had land in Suffolk. In fact, they were primarily of the village of Eye.
Perhaps this could be how the Jones family links in? As I mentioned previously, Arnoldus Jones, later Skelton, inherited Branthwaite Hall, Cumberland from his father Capt. James Jones who acquired it in the will of a Skelton who served under his command in the 3rd Foot Guard. Capt. James Jones could still be related to the Suffolk Jones'.
Did we not have the name Jemima before in a different Jones branch?
Was there not also a query about the Armorial Bearing being that of Jones of London?
I am happy to be of assistance, Frederica. I have a very slight interest in the Baron Braybrookes because my namesake assisted the 4th Lord Braybrooke with a translation of Samuel Pepys' diary.
I also have an interest in the Howard family for no other reason than my namesake also being an editor of Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey's poetry (with his own Memoir).
Addendum: the Dampier link certainly does look promising, especially as many of the families who married into the family were linked to Eton College.
I have yet to find anything to suggest that a daughter of Dr. Thomas Dampier, D.D., bishop of Ely, married Charles Jones. Can you remember what your source for this was?
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I forgot to mention that Arnoldus Jones-Skelton was M.P. for Eye, Suffolk in 1780. The Cornwallis' had also been M.P. for Eye over many generations.
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You should have enough posts now, have a try, you should need 3 but it sometimes works with 2.
If you let us know whether it works or not, you'll definitely have 3.
Dawn
Thanks Dawn,
This should do the trick then. Anyone with further interest in the Limby related post cards should feel free to message me.
Cheers,
Hubba