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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: andycadman on Monday 04 August 08 09:09 BST (UK)
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I have a marriage certificate for Frank Lesley London (age given 21) and Margaret Rose Arnold (age given 20) on Dec 24 1955 at Eckington Parish Church. I have found the birth of Margaret Rose in the June qtr. of 1935 in Worksop. From the Frank Lesley's details he should have been born around 1935. I have looked at the birth index for this period and found nothing. The London family are from the Chesterfield district. Can any one please help me find the birth of Frank Lesley London (age given as 21 in Dec 1955). His father on the Marriage certificate is given as William James London (Deceased) and I have found his probable death in the June qtr of 1953 in Chesterfield.
If any one can help me solve this problem it would be really appreciated.
Andy
PS I have also been unable to find the marriage of his father William Joseph in the Chesterfield area. Could he perhaps have been registered originally under a different last name? I am unsure what to do next.
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From the Frank Lesley's details he should have been born around 1935. I have looked at the birth index for this period
I've checked the GRO index 1933-1936 but no trace
Is there any possibility he was adopted or born in Scotland
Could he have been illegitimate and taken the London surname if his mother then married?
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William J London was 51 when he died in 1953 so was b 1901/02
Freebmd only has one William J (James) London in that period and he was b Holborn Middlesex
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Many thanks for your thoughts CaroleW. I too was thinking along the lines that he may have been illegitimate. Frank Lesley are an unusual set of first two names. Does any one know a data base on which I could do such a search for the mid 1930's. As you said I think that he probably adopted the London name later.
I believe Frank Lesley's father William Joseph came from this family group in the 1901 Census:
Registration district: Chesterfield
Sub registration district: Bolsover
Dora London 9 dgt
Eliza London 40 wife
Ellen London 5 dgt
Frederick London 38 head
Robert London 6 son
William London 1 son
Arthur Norman 22 step son
Horace Norman 16 step son
Wilfred Norman 13 step son
The William was infact William Joseph and tallies with the BMD.
I think that the William James from London (the city) may be a red hearing.
One other interesting fact is that William James London had a brother called John Henry London who coincidently died in the same quarter in Chesterfield. I think the age at death for both of them may be wrong.
It is very frustrating, any thoughts would be very welcome.
Thanks again CaroleW
Andy
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A longshot - Have you though about treating Lesley as a possible surname and checking the GRO index for 1934 and 1935 under Lesley
If William Joseph London was born 1899 and not 1901/02 as his death suggests - he was in his middle 30's when Frank was born which suggests he could have married a while beforehand and had other children so you may be looking for a marriage from 1910 onwards - could even be a second marriage
William James London Sept qtr 1899 Worksop
Volume: 7b Page: 45
A copy of his death cert MAY show his wife's name but only her christian name - not her maiden name. It's not guaranteed as anybody could report a death
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A longshot - Have you though about treating Lesley as a possible surname and checking the GRO index for 1934 and 1935 under Lesley
I've just checked 1934-1936 - zilch!!
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Thank you again for trying CaroleW.
The only way forward may to be send for the death certificate . . . . . but again that is likely to yield Zilch.
Perhaps a longer trawl over all the possible years for a marriage of William Joseph might yield a result.
Andy
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The Death certificate for William James London arrived today. Very informative and tragic but does not yet quite link him with Frank Lesley - but I am confident that they are linked.
William James died tragically in a mining accident in 1950, but the death was not registered until three years later. This is due to the fact that they were unable to recover the body from the mine until sometime later and then there were coroners hearings. The age now fits with the birth and we have the correct person. His brother John Henry also died in the same accident, (in fact 80 miners in total died in the tragedy).
You can find the details of the accident here (You will find a widow Tilda London mentioned):
http://www.youandyesterday.co.uk/articles/Cresswell_Colliery:_Eighty_men_entombed_in_coal_mine
All the men listed in the disaster are listed here. You will find both William James and John Henry here:
http://www.dmm2.org.uk/uknames/u1950-02.htm
You will find a report on the accident here:
http://www.dmm2.org.uk/uknames/8574-01.htm
The question is how to find Frank Lesley London's Birth around 1935, probably under a different last name and link him more strongly with William James London on the Death Certificate.
One lesson to be learnt here is that the registration of a death may be several years after the actual death. William James London died on 6 September 1950 but the death did not apear on the indexes until 11 May 1953.
Any help to move forward here would be appreciated.
Andy
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Hi Andy
I recently visited the world heritage site at Blaenavon and went on the tour of the pit there. A very humbling experience when you realise the conditions miners worked under. That report you included sent shudders down my spine as that was one of the thoughts in my mind when I was down there - how could anybody survive a disaster in those conditions.
Any help to move forward here would be appreciated.
We now know that although William was 51 when he died - it wasn't in 1953 - it was in 1950 which puts his birth at 1899/1900 and not as we thought earlier - 1901/02 so there is every possibility that this is him on the 1901 census for Bolsover Derbyshire
Frederick London 38 b Suffolk adingham - colliery carter
Eliza 40 b Suffolk Ashfield
Dora 9 b Suffolk Hackerton
Robert 6 b Suffolk Hackerton
Ellen 5 b Suffolk Hackerton
William 1 b Derbyshire Barlborough
The following are stepchildren
Arthur Norman 22 Suffolk Halne?
Horace Norman 16 b London
Wilfred Norman 13 b Suffolk Denham
RG13; Piece: 3254; Folio: 104; Page: 23
Births
William James London September qtr 1899 Worksop
Volume: 7b Page: 45
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Births
John Henry London December qtr 1901 Chesterfield
Volume: 7b Page: 782
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Ok, what names witnessed this 1955 marriage?
Pauline
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I think you first need to find the marriage of William James London and Tilda which you will only be able to do by searching the full GRO index as there is nothing on freebmd
Having established the year - you can then look for Frank's birth. I wonder if he was genuinely 21 when he married or did he "stretch" the truth? As you know - I have already checked up to 1936 without success
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Many thanks again Carole W - so many replies over night.
The death certificate really did "hit" me when I opened it and even more when I looked into the tragedy. So many men died and had simple action been taken earlier, all those deaths could have been avoided.
The names that witnessed the 1955 Marriage Pauline were a Paul Pemberton and Joseph L Arnold (the brides father). So not a lot of help here.
Tilda (possibly Matilda) could be the wife of John Henry London, (William James brother) who also died in the tragedy. However, it will be worth searching the index for the Matilda/Tilda marriage.
I have searched the indexes for quite a number of years around 1935 for the birth of Frank Lesley and found nothing. The solution probably lies in the unusual first two name combination of Frank Lesley and to do a very broad brush search of 1935 births, but that is a daunting task.
If any one has any other quicker ideas it would be appreciated. Possibly a search of local newspapers may help . . . . . .
Andy
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I have just found this information in the "Derbyshire Times" of 29 Sept 1950:
William James London (59), packer, 4, Appletree Road, Stanfree, leaves a widow, one son and one daughter. He was born in the house next door, 2, App letree Road, where his parents, Mr. And Mrs. F. London, kept a general store, now run by Mr. Brough. Mr. London, whose brother at Creswell was also killed in the disaster, had worked at Oxcroft and Whitwell Collieries, and had been at Creswell pit for four years. He was a member of Oxcroft Colliery Institute and of the Miners' Club at Shuttlewood. He had been employed as a collier for 45 years.
(NB the paper have got his age and length of service wrong)
and also this about is brother:
John Henry London (48), "The Dene," Skinner Street, Creswell, lived at Stanfree for most of his life, going to Creswell in 1938. He worked at Creswell pit for about 15 years and was previously at Oxcroft and Shireoaks. He was married with a son and daughter.
But still nothing yet to link William James to Frank Lesley.
(I have found John Henry's children on the BMD but none of William James)
I have also found out that his wife's maiden name was probably Partridge.
From the Derbyshire Times of 29 Sept 1950:
When Mrs. Tilda London. Apple Tree Road, Stanfree, arrived back from the funeral of her mother, Mrs. E. Partridge, Chesterfield on Tuesday, she was told that her husband, Mr. W. London, had been killed in the disaster.
I have looked on Ancestry's BMD for the first three quaters of 1935 and found no Frank Lesley Partridge but the last quarter is missing from the site. Can any one do a check for me please to see if there is a Frank Lesley Partridge in the DEC qtr of 1935. A long shot but you never know!
If anyone can help in any way, especially to link William James London to Frank Lesley London, it would be really appreciated.
Andy
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I believe you can get to the last qtr by the breadcrumb trail route.
Search year by year till you end up with the alphabetic option...
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/list.aspx?dbid=8966&path=1935.Q4-Oct-Nov-Dec
Pauline
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Many thanks Pauline. Got there in the end. Came up with zilch, but that is really good tip.
Any advice on how to move forward would be appreciated.
Andy
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Hi Andy
There is a Frank E Partridge birth in the Dec qtr 1935 mmn Richardson Birmingham 6D 42 but no Frank Lesley
EDIT - sorry - didn't see your reply above before I posted
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Tilda's mother could be this Mrs E Partridge
Deaths Sept qtr 1950
Eliza J Partridge aged 78 Nottingham 3C 245
Gives a birthyear of around 1872 so probably married by 1901
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Mrs E Partirdge is William James Mother in Law (See above From the Derbyshire Times of 29 Sept 1950:
When Mrs. Tilda London. Apple Tree Road, Stanfree, arrived back from the funeral of her mother, Mrs. E. Partridge, Chesterfield on Tuesday, she was told that her husband, Mr. W. London, had been killed in the disaster.) I found her family in the 1901 census.
Thanks again for the look ups CaroleW.
The birth record for Frank Lesley London continues to be a mystery!
What next? I have found the death of William James Wife Matilda in 1961 - perhaps Frank Lesley may have reported the death? But . . . . . . . .will it reveal zilch?
Any help in linking Frank Lesley with William James would be appreciated (or evidence otherewise).
Andy
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Hi Andy
I know Mrs Partridge was his mother in law but as she was b 1872 I wondered if you may be able to find a marriage of a Partridge to an Eliza J
This would give Eliza's maiden name and possibly help you find Tilda's birth.
However - I think I have found Tilda for you on the 1901 census for Chesterfield - looks like Vicar Rd
Everybody b Whittington Moor apart from Ben
Ben Partridge 35 b Staffs ?? dealer
Eliza Partridge 28
William Partridge 5
Lucy Partridge 4
Matilda Partridge 2
Elizabeth E Partridge 1
RG13; Piece: 3247; Folio: 149; Page: 20
If Frank Lesley was born around 1935 and IF Matilda was his mother - she would have been nearly 40 when he was born
So - either William London was previously married or he and Tilda married a while before Frank's birth
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There is a Matilda Partridge marriage in Chesterfield on freebmd in 1919 to Jack Moore
If this is the right Matilda - could be a second marriage for both her and William
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Freebmd shows Moore births in Chesterfield mmn Partridge up until 1929
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Many thanks again for all the information CaroleW.
The net is steadily closing and hopefully there will be some light at the end of the tunnel.
It does seem likely that Matilda's marriage to William James was a second marriage.
I now think it likey that Frank Lesley London may have been born with a different last name.
Andy
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I now think it likey that Frank Lesley London may have been born with a different last name.
The only unknown surname would be if William H was married previously and his wife had Frank before they married (illegit) but he took the London name
We have ruled out the London and Partridge surnames so that leaves Moore and the unknown surname. (If Matilda was widowed but had a "fling" he may be registered under Moore)
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Thanks CaroleW - I will have to have another flick through the Ancestry BMD records - Frank Lesley is such an unusual set of first names it may be worth a shot.
Andy
Had a look at BMD around 1935 but nothing so back to the drawing board!
There was a Frank L Moore mothers maiden name Crossland at Huddersfield which just does not fit . . . . . .
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Hi Andy
I think you need to concentrate on a possible first marriage for William J London and find who he married.
He was born mid- late 1899 so you need to search the full GRO index from about 1918 for a marriage as there is nothing on freebmd
If you find his marriage to Matilda - at least a copy of their marriage cert will show his marital status at that time (widower etc)
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Dear Carole,
I've been through the marriage index from about 1918 to 1950 looking for William James London and so far found nothing. Perhaps a more thorough search is needed.
Thank you again for your advice.
Andy
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Hi Andy
Is that the full index or the partial one on freebmd?
The full index involves downloading the images for each quarter and checking for the name
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I went through the full index on Ancestry - rather time consuming and tedious over that time line - perhaps I missed something - Andy
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The death certificate of Matilda London arrived today.
However it tells us zilch about Frank Lesley, but . . . . . .
Name and Surname is given as Matilda London otherwise Moore
It also says of 4, Appletree Road, Stanfree, Bolsover, (right address).
Widow of Jack Moore a Coal Carter - so she was living with William James London but not married to him. So . . . . .
Is Frank Lesley the son of Matilda – so far may be not – but not definite
Is Frank Lesley the illegitimate son of William originally registered under a different name but took up the London name later – possibly.
Was Frank Lesley adopted by William (and Matilda) – just something else to add to the puzzle.
Also the death was reported by E Dobb, Daughter (of Matilda) but could have been either the daughter or step daughter of William. Three members of the Dobbs died in the Cresswell mining disaster.
So what next? So far the full Ancestry birth indexes have reveled very little.
Andy
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Hi Andy
When did Frank Lesley die?
It certainly looks as though Matilda never married William but was known as his wife hence the newspaper report
We have a 15 year gap between Frank Lesley's assumed birthyear (1935) and William James's death (1950) when anything could have happened
Was William ever married - no marriage can be found
If he was - did he leave his wife in favour of Matilda so they were unable to marry as she was still alive?
Did Jack Moore die before 1950 - if so, what was stopping William & Matilda from marrying?
Unless (old) living relatives are found - I doubt you will ever get the right answers.
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Thanks again Carol.
More questions - what you say is true.
The answer may still lie in the local newspapers of the time, (early 1950's).
Perhaps a trip to Chesterfield Local Studies Library may give an answer, when the time is available.
Andy