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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: bernadine on Monday 04 August 08 17:10 BST (UK)
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hello board I wonder if there is any one out there who could help I was tracing my gg/mother a Mary Brodigan who married a LLewelyn Turner they had 7 children and Lew ranoff with somebody else,Mary died and when I sent for her death/cert it stated present at he death her niece Mary Brodigan,Ive traced her to marrying a WILLIAM THOMAS born Liverpool but moved to Wrexham with his family they are on the 1881cen RG11 5518/127 page29 living in Old Toll House Ruthin Rd in the 1901 cen he's still there but with Mary and their children,It is these Thomas's that I am trying to track down does anybody else have any information on them Thank you Bernadine
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hello again I really don't know where to go next,I wonder if anyone has a directory to see if they still lived in the Old Toll House in 1911.I know it is one of the popular names in Wales but please are there any Thomas's who have a Brodigan or Turner connection? I would be most grateful for any help Thanks Bernadine
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Hello Bernadine, if you post the info you have from the 1881 I'll see if I can find anything in parish registers.
Paul
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Many thanks here goes I am looking for the family of this couple William Thomes Reg11 5518/127 page29Cen 1881 WrexhamAbbot Denbigh Wales he married a Mary Brodigan from Louth Drogheda Ireland,on23/12/1896 in Wrexham,The Thomas's children all born Liverpool so they must of moved to The Old Toll House just prior to 1881 cen,I have them 1901 cen living at that same address but the couple are married and have a young family,It is this family I am trying to trace.Mary is part of my family she came over to help her aunt(my gg/mother) who was deserted by her husband Llewelyn Turner,the family all got split up I think one of them Richard Mark was with her because hes on the 1901 cen at the Toll Hse,Mary and Thomas both gave as address Offa Terr Bersham on wedding cert Thanks Bernie
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Hi Bernie
Got your message. I'll see if I can help :)
Do you want descendants or are you trying to work out the Brodigan/Turner link?
Gadget
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Right, one thing at a time.
1.
This is the family in 1881:
Old Toll House, Ruthin Road, Wrexham (Abbot) RG11/5518/127 page 29/30
John Thomas, 33, warehouse clerk,
Mathilda, 31
Martha, 10
William, 7
Sarah, 2
Estol(?), 11mths
all down as b. Liverpool
2.
North Wales BMD has a civil marriage in Wrexham for William to Mary Brodigan in 1896.
3.
1901
Pentrellwygadd, Marchwiel
RG13/5215 Folio 57 Page 10
William Thomas, 26, shift man at colliery, b. Liverpool
Mary, 27, b. Ireland
John, 3, b. Wrexham
Richard Turner, cousin, unm?, 21, shift man at colliery, b. Ruabon
HarrietTurner, cousin, 18 unm?, b. Wrexham
It looks as if Richard and Harriet were,maybe, Mary's cousins from this - children of your ancestor and Llewellyn Turner.
Gadget
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oh you clever girl and thank you yes Richard Mark was her cousin one of the kids she looked after when her aunt was deserted by Llewwlyvn Turner my grandmother Mary Elizabeth was another one,I had a posting on the Liverpooland south lancs board for Llewelyn turner and that is how I found out about Mary Brodigan it was her aunts name too(mygg/mother fron Drogheda)It was where they went after the 1901 cen they are living in the old Toll hse which his family lived in when they left Liverpool,are there any directories that will tell us that? she must of met him and married him while she looked after the kids I thank you so much,how did you learn to find all these sites? love Berniex
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Hi Bernie
I'm not sure how you can find who was living in the Old Toll House after 1901. The family don't seem to be there then.
1901 for William's parents:
11 Offa Terrace, Bersham, Wrexham
RG13/5219 Folio 123 Page 17
John S Thomas , 53, hawker, b. Liverpool
Mathilda, 57, b. Liverpool
John, 20, tailor, b. Liverpool
Chile(?), 15, b. Wrexham
Frederick, 14, b. Wrexham
Thomas Davenport, boarder, single, 50, roadman, b. Wales, NK
Hilda Thomas, grddaughter, 1, b. Bersham
It might be that you have to wait until next year for the 1911 census. There might be some directories but I'm not sure that that would really help much. Possibly some electoral registers :-\
Gadget
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Just to fill in the gap:
1891
11 Offa Terrace, Bersham, Wrexham
RG12/4619 Folio 115 page 33
John Thomas, 42, hawker, b. Liverpool
Mathilda, 40, b. Liverpool
William, 18, general labourer, b. Liverpool
Sarah, 12, b. Liverpool
John E, 11, b. Liverpool
Gertrude, 8, b. Wrexham
Edgar, 5, b. Wrexham
Frederick, 1, b. Wrexham
Edwin, 1, b. Wrexham
I'll check up on the Turners b. Ruabon/Wrexham
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Here they are in 1891:
Hafod y bwch, Esclusham, Wrexham
RG12/4617 Folio 78 Page 4
Mary Turner, married, 44, b. South Drogheda
Thomas, 18,miner, b. Bradford, Yorks
William Alfred, 17, miner, b. South Drogheda
Llewellin, 15, b. Hafod
Julia Ann, 14, b. Hafod
Richard mark, 12, b. Hafod
Mary Elizabeth, 10, b. Hafod
Maria, 9, b. Hafod
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hiya I sent for Mary and Williams marriage cert and they both gave the offa Terr as resI thought in 1901 cen Mary and Thomas had moved back in the Toll hse?.I felt so bad when Lew ran off and left Mary with those small children she died a couple of years later and wasnt it good of her niece to care for the little ones,when I sent for my g/mothers birth cert it was sad because mary could only put a mark! couldnt read or write.I just wondered what family the Thomas's went on to have,by the way Harriet must of been Marks girlfriend/wife? we didnt have a Harriet.Do you subscibe to any sites and which do you think are the best,we have scotlands people and I have been to that in Edinburgh thanks Berniex
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hello Bernie
Scotlands People is a brilliant site for Scotland, However, you would have to subscribe to such sites as Ancestry or Finmypast, for example, to get online info about the censuses in England and Wales.
There are other sites relevant to North Wales:
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/
which would give you some further info on the Turner line after 1901 and also FreeBMD http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
Gadget :)
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A bit more - you probably have it but it helps the info on this thread:
1881
Hafodybwch, Esclusham
RG11/5518 Folio 74 Page 9
Llewelyn Turner, 32, rail engine driver, b. Ruthin
Mary, 32, b. Ireland
Thomas Edward, 8, b. Bradford, Yorks
William Alfred, 7, b. Ireland
Llewellyn, 5, b. Hafodybwch
Richard Mark, 2, b. Hafodybwch
Mary Elizabeth, 1, b. Hafodybwch
Winifred, 8 mths, b. Hafodybwch
I've checked on FreeBMD and the North Wales BMD site but haven't located a marriage for Richard so far.
Gadget
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hello and thanks for your help I have been racking my brains(not that I have many) but I can't place a Harriet in the family do you think she was just living as common law wife with Richard although in that day and age I couldn't see that happening,but look what his father done he didn't care about society when he cleared off with his barmaid!! Thanks Bernadine
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Hello :)
I checked for a marriage of Richard around the time (and up to about 1905, if I recall) but couldn't find one.
Just wondering if Maria (aged 9 in 1891) became Harriet.
Gadget
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Right, one thing at a time.
1.
This is the family in 1881:
Old Toll House, Ruthin Road, Wrexham (Abbot) RG11/5518/127 page 29/30
John Thomas, 33, warehouse clerk,
Mathilda, 31
Martha, 10
William, 7
Sarah, 2
Estol(?), 11mths
all down as b. Liverpool
2.
North Wales BMD has a civil marriage in Wrexham for William to Mary Brodigan in 1896.
3.
1901
Pentrellwygadd, Marchwiel
RG13/5215 Folio 57 Page 10
William Thomas, 26, shift man at colliery, b. Liverpool
Mary, 27, b. Ireland
John, 3, b. Wrexham
Richard Turner, cousin, unm?, 21, shift man at colliery, b. Ruabon
HarrietTurner, cousin, 18 unm?, b. Wrexham
It looks as if Richard and Harriet were,maybe, Mary's cousins from this - children of your ancestor and Llewellyn Turner.
Gadget
It seems you were correct in placing question marks as to whether Richard Mark and Harret Turner were married Gadget,for reading from someone's Tree I have access to on Genes Reunited,the person has Richard Mark Turner marrying a Harriet Davies given as born in Wrexham in 1883.No year is given for the Marriage,and I can't find it anywhere also,but a daughter Margaret is born to the couple in c 1902,who goes on to marry a James Izatt who was born in Edinburgh in 1903.This couple's first child was an Alice Turner Izatt born in Edinburgh in 1921 who died in 1958.As for Richard Mark Turner himself he apparently was killed in France in 1917.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Whether it is relevant or not in finding a record of the Marriage of Richard Mark Turner and Harriet Davies,the person on GR has them marrying in the Catholic Church.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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What date, William - I never frequent that site :)
Nothing on NW BMD 1890 -1910
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No year is given for the Marriage.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Well, the NW BMD doesn't have them and neither, so far, does FreeBMD ::)
The 1901 does have them as married - I've had another look - Ms and Us looking the same but the page has S for Single!
I'm not familiar with the RC Churches in that particular bit - would it have been Wrexham?
It might be worth contacting the person on GR to ask for a date :D
Gadget
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I will contact the person on GR Gadget.Looking again at the Tree on GR has led me to the following Census entries for Llewelyn Turner in 1891 and 1901.In 1891 he is living in Brinsworth Rotherham Yorkshire listed as Louis L Turner born in "Wales,Denbeigh,Derbyshire,England" in c 1849.Also listed is Annie "Turner" his Wife given as born in "Wales,Denbeigh,Derbyshire,England" iin c 1861.and a "Winnifred" Turner daughter given as born in Catcliffe Yorkshire in c 1890.RG12/3847/121/36.The corresponding Family in 1901 are living in Cleobury Mortimer Shropshire.This time the Family are listed as Louis Turner born in Bradford Yorkshire in 1852,His Wife Annie given as born in Keighley Yorkshire in c 1860.Children given are Winifred born in Catcliffe Yorkshire in c 1891,Annie born in Catcliffe in c 1894,Harry born in Catcliffe in c 1895,Louis born in Catcliffe in c 1896,and Percy born in Highley Shropshire in c 1900.RG13/2516/48/11.In both Census years "Louis" is given as an Engine Driver-Stationary.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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I think Annie must be the 'barmaid' that Bernie referred to.
Gadget :)
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hello My second name is after this lady she was a cook in the Royal Inf Liverpool,she never married but lived with my grandmother her sister Mary Elizabeth,after my Gran died she lived with my mums sister Muriel,she was a R/C because she was brought up by we think the Irish relatives must of been the Thomas's because they are the only Irish connection to the family that I know of,the reason I have tried to untangle them is I went to Drogheda with my mum when I was 5(60 yrs ago) with us went an Uncle Pat and my mums cousin? Bernard he would of been about 30 odd when we went to Drogheda and he lived in a place name Ninehouses i think its either Shotton or Connors Quay,he suffered from Alapecia? always wore a black trilby and I recall he married somebody named Ruth,I have no idea who the Harriet can be,that is indeed another puzzle I really do thank you for your help you are a very generous ladyx Bernie
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I am amazed with the help I have rec and I think both of you really are excellent with your research can I ask how long you have been researching? I only hope I can improve with mine thank you both so much I really do appreciate it Bernadine
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Further info from Turner contacts on GR leads to the Marriage of Richard Turner and Harriet Davies taking place at South Shields Durham in the April Quarter of 1900.The GRO reference for the Marriage is Volume 10a,Page 1441.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham
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Isn't it wonderful all this information that is coming in? I live in the Scottish Borders 1 hr from Edinburgh and 1 hr from Newcastle so I will try and get to Shields to see what |I can find out,I would dearly love to know what happened to the Turner Kiddies when Mary was left I wonder if her Turner relations helped out I do know Lews father Edward had Julia Ann staying with him,but there again when his wife died he replaced her with a much younger version very quickly,These Turner men are something else I hope our Stephen Turner does not take after them!! he will have a good laugh at that,I will keep digging I have joined Genes Reunited so heres hoping Thank you for your help you are a real gentleman Bernadine
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Steady on Bernie you'll have me believing it!
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Yes well you believe you do help so many people x bernadine
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The nine houses where in Shotton, Bernadine
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/shotton/
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Right, one thing at a time.
1.
This is the family in 1881:
Old Toll House, Ruthin Road, Wrexham (Abbot) RG11/5518/127 page 29/30
John Thomas, 33, warehouse clerk,
Mathilda, 31
Martha, 10
William, 7
Sarah, 2
Estol(?), 11mths
all down as b. Liverpool
2.
North Wales BMD has a civil marriage in Wrexham for William to Mary Brodigan in 1896.
3.
1901
Pentrellwygadd, Marchwiel
RG13/5215 Folio 57 Page 10
William Thomas, 26, shift man at colliery, b. Liverpool
Mary, 27, b. Ireland
John, 3, b. Wrexham
Richard Turner, cousin, unm?, 21, shift man at colliery, b. Ruabon
HarrietTurner, cousin, 18 unm?, b. Wrexham
It looks as if Richard and Harriet were,maybe, Mary's cousins from this - children of your ancestor and Llewellyn Turner.
Gadget
It seems you were correct in placing question marks as to whether Richard Mark and Harret Turner were married Gadget,for reading from someone's Tree I have access to on Genes Reunited,the person has Richard Mark Turner marrying a Harriet Davies given as born in Wrexham in 1883.No year is given for the Marriage,and I can't find it anywhere also,but a daughter Margaret is born to the couple in c 1902,who goes on to marry a James Izatt who was born in Edinburgh in 1903.This couple's first child was an Alice Turner Izatt born in Edinburgh in 1921 who died in 1958.As for Richard Mark Turner himself he apparently was killed in France in 1917.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Right, one thing at a time.
1.
This is the family in 1881:
Old Toll House, Ruthin Road, Wrexham (Abbot) RG11/5518/127 page 29/30
John Thomas, 33, warehouse clerk,
Mathilda, 31
Martha, 10
William, 7
Sarah, 2
Estol(?), 11mths
all down as b. Liverpool
2.
North Wales BMD has a civil marriage in Wrexham for William to Mary Brodigan in 1896.
3.
1901
Pentrellwygadd, Marchwiel
RG13/5215 Folio 57 Page 10
William Thomas, 26, shift man at colliery, b. Liverpool
Mary, 27, b. Ireland
John, 3, b. Wrexham
Richard Turner, cousin, unm?, 21, shift man at colliery, b. Ruabon
HarrietTurner, cousin, 18 unm?, b. Wrexham
It looks as if Richard and Harriet were,maybe, Mary's cousins from this - children of your ancestor and Llewellyn Turner.
Gadget
It seems you were correct in placing question marks as to whether Richard Mark and Harret Turner were married Gadget,for reading from someone's Tree I have access to on Genes Reunited,the person has Richard Mark Turner marrying a Harriet Davies given as born in Wrexham in 1883.No year is given for the Marriage,and I can't find it anywhere also,but a daughter Margaret is born to the couple in c 1902,who goes on to marry a James Izatt who was born in Edinburgh in 1903.This couple's first child was an Alice Turner Izatt born in Edinburgh in 1921 who died in 1958.As for Richard Mark Turner himself he apparently was killed in France in 1917.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Richard Turner married Harriet Davies in 1900. Their daughter Margaret born 1902 was my grandmother, who married James Izatt. Alice was born in 1921 and was adopted by my grandfather, her father is unknown
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Hello :)
I checked for a marriage of Richard around the time (and up to about 1905, if I recall) but couldn't find one.
Just wondering if Maria (aged 9 in 1891) became Harriet.
Gadget
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Richard married Harriet Davies in 1900. Their daughter Margaret was my grandmother
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Hi Sharon
Bernadine hasn't been on the site for 5 years so. She might see your posts and respond.Otherwise, if you wish to get in touch, you could send her a private massage, PM, by clicking the scroll under her details on the left.
Is there any information on the family that you wold like us to try and find?
Gadget
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Right, one thing at a time.
1.
This is the family in 1881:
Old Toll House, Ruthin Road, Wrexham (Abbot) RG11/5518/127 page 29/30
John Thomas, 33, warehouse clerk,
Mathilda, 31
Martha, 10
William, 7
Sarah, 2
Estol(?), 11mths
all down as b. Liverpool
2.
North Wales BMD has a civil marriage in Wrexham for William to Mary Brodigan in 1896.
3.
1901
Pentrellwygadd, Marchwiel
RG13/5215 Folio 57 Page 10
William Thomas, 26, shift man at colliery, b. Liverpool
Mary, 27, b. Ireland
John, 3, b. Wrexham
Richard Turner, cousin, unm?, 21, shift man at colliery, b. Ruabon
HarrietTurner, cousin, 18 unm?, b. Wrexham
It looks as if Richard and Harriet were,maybe, Mary's cousins from this - children of your ancestor and Llewellyn Turner.
Gadget
It seems you were correct in placing question marks as to whether Richard Mark and Harret Turner were married Gadget,for reading from someone's Tree I have access to on Genes Reunited,the person has Richard Mark Turner marrying a Harriet Davies given as born in Wrexham in 1883.No year is given for the Marriage,and I can't find it anywhere also,but a daughter Margaret is born to the couple in c 1902,who goes on to marry a James Izatt who was born in Edinburgh in 1903.This couple's first child was an Alice Turner Izatt born in Edinburgh in 1921 who died in 1958.As for Richard Mark Turner himself he apparently was killed in France in 1917.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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William was Mary Brodigan's second husband. Her first husband Llewellyn ran off leaving her with 7 children