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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: RobynD on Thursday 07 August 08 04:52 BST (UK)
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My g.grandparents, Frederick and Mary Knapman (nee Milton) left their farm "Tollards Farm". Heavitree, Exeter, in 1886 to come to Sydney with their 8 children. However, according to the UK 1881 Census, he was a farmer of 180 acres, employing 5 men and 2 boys plus a house servant.
This would appear to make them "reasonably" comfortable off for those days. ?? Apparently the house, which was of 2 stories with an outside staircase, no longer exists and a motorway now goes through the farm.
I am wondering what would cause my g.grandparents to leave their home and the area in which their ancestors had lived for generations.
Was their some economic farming downturn at that time or "plague" or similar - I guess I am trying to find possible reasons for their leaving. If anyone has knowledge of the area and conditions of the times, I would be very appreciate your ideas and thoughts.
With thanks
RobynD - in rural NSW - not far from where their son, Frederick settled in 1888
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Hi
This link is to the Heavitree local history society, who might be able to help with general info about the area.
http://beehive.thisisexeter.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=9173&PageID=50731
Heavitree once extended from Countess Wear to Livery Dole in Exeter, the site of the executions. The Countess Wear/Topsham Road area has been developed over the years but one road in the locality is named Tollards Road. I will see if I can look out a plan from 1880 to see whether Tollards Farm was nearby.
Kind regards
H
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Hi
I have found a plan showing Tollards Farm and surrounding area. If you give me your email address I will send a copy and one of the current area.
Kind regards
H
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Mrs. H - thank you so much for your search, and actually finding a map of Tollards Farm. This is exciting for me, to now be able to see where my grandfather was born in 1874 and lived until he and his siblings and parents came to Australia in 1885. My mother always said her father (my grandfather Thomas Milton Knapman) was known as "Master Tom" in the village and his father Frederick was the Village Squire. Like all family anecdotes, one always wonders if there has been some exaggeration over the years - and makes one want to search for more specific family details. So to see a map of the farm would be wonderful. Thank you also for the link to the Heavitree History Society and the background of the area. I will certainly follow that up.
My direct email address is:
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With thanks again and best wishes
RobynD
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Hi Robyn,
I am interested in story about Frederick and Mary. Do you have any more information about Frederick as I have a frederick in my family tree but no information other than he was born around 1860 in Devon. Most of my family descend from the Stoke gabriel, Berry Pomeroy and Paignton areas of Devon.
Can you help
Hilary
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I wonder if your Knapmans are connected to mine? My first cousin 6x removed, Mary Ann Waycott (b. Moretonhampstead 1801) married a John Knapman and one of their 9 children was William Knapman b.1830 who emigrated to Australia in 1860 and started the W.Knapman & Son Brewery in Port Adelaide, S. Australia. So your Knapmans may have had relatives already there, although I note they are in different states.
By 1886 the Industrial Revolution had had an enormous effect on farming. Steam powered machines were doing the work of labourers. At the same time, people were flocking to the towns and there was pressure on agricultural land for building homes, mills and factories. This would have been especially true of the location you are talking about, very close to Exeter. Australia by this time was relatively 'civilised' and offered enormous opportunities to acquire vast acreages of land at very little cost. For a man with sons impatient to strike out into the world, it must have been very tempting.
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Not sure about this. I have several Williams as well as Johns. Can you be a bit more specifice about dates and birthplaces. Some of my ancestors did emigrate but not sure if it was any of the Williams. I did however find a John who married a Mary(surname unknown) but they did not have a son, William.
Best Wishes
Hilary
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John KNAPMAN married Mary Ann WAYCOTT 5 November 1822 in Bridford, west of Exeter. They had the following children, all born in the Bridford/Dunsford area:
Mary Ann KNAPMAN (1822- )
James KNAPMAN (1825- )
John KNAPMAN (1828- )
William KNAPMAN (1830- )
Susanna Waycott KNAPMAN (1833- )
Samuel KNAPMAN (1835- )
George KNAPMAN (1838- )
Sarah KNAPMAN (1841- )
Maria KNAPMAN (1843- )
William Knapman (the one who went to Australia and started a brewery) was born 4 Dec 1830 in Dunsford, Devonshire, England and died 24 Jun 1908 in Port Adelaide, South Australia, Australia at age 77.
William married Charlotte Bowden about 1 Jan 1853. Charlotte was born about 1 Jan 1834 and died 30 May 1892 in Port Pirie, South Australia, Australia about age 58.
Children from this marriage were:
Mary Elizabeth Knapman born 18 Aug 1854 in Adelaide, South Australia, Australia.
William Henry Knapman born 3 Jun 1856 in Lefevre Peninsula, South Australia, Australia and died 24 Jul 1900 in Exeter, South Australia, Australia at age 44.
I don't know any more about John Knapman but he may well have had siblings in the Exeter area. I have more details about the Australian family though.
Regards,
Maureen
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Hi Maureen,
I've got a feeling that there isn't a link to my family. However, I will keep searching and if do find out anymore I'll let you know
Happy Hunting
Hilary
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Dear Maureen,
I am the Great Great Great grandson of John Knapman. I grew up in Port Adelaide b.1953 My gg Grandfather was W. Knapman below. His Son W.H. Knapman my g grandfather. His son Bert my grandfather. His son Max my father. The Cannon Brewery was common knowledge in the family.
As were the Knapman Buildings at the Black Diamond Corner in Port Adelaide.
Regards,
Steve Knapman
John KNAPMAN married Mary Ann WAYCOTT 5 November 1822 in Bridford, west of Exeter. They had the following children, all born in the Bridford/Dunsford area:
Mary Ann KNAPMAN (1822- )
James KNAPMAN (1825- )
John KNAPMAN (1828- )
William KNAPMAN (1830- )
Susanna Waycott KNAPMAN (1833- )
Samuel KNAPMAN (1835- )
George KNAPMAN (1838- )
Sarah KNAPMAN (1841- )
Maria KNAPMAN (1843- )
William Knapman (the one who went to Australia and started a brewery) was born 4 Dec 1830 in Dunsford, Devonshire, England and died 24 Jun 1908 in Port Adelaide, South Australia, Australia at age 77.
William married Charlotte Bowden about 1 Jan 1853. Charlotte was born about 1 Jan 1834 and died 30 May 1892 in Port Pirie, South Australia, Australia about age 58.
Children from this marriage were:
Mary Elizabeth Knapman born 18 Aug 1854 in Adelaide, South Australia, Australia.
William Henry Knapman born 3 Jun 1856 in Lefevre Peninsula, South Australia, Australia and died 24 Jul 1900 in Exeter, South Australia, Australia at age 44.
I don't know any more about John Knapman but he may well have had siblings in the Exeter area. I have more details about the Australian family though.
Regards,
Maureen
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Hello to ALL Knapmans
I have recently discovered a Knapman in my family, do any of you know of it or are connected to it?
Susanna Knapman married John Winsor (sometimes spelled Winser) on 30 Aug 1808 in Chagford, Devon.
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Steve - I have just come across your message about the Knapmans in Adelaide and the brewery.
I've been told they are distantly related to my grandfather Thomas Milton KNAPMAN, but have not followed through with this line of research - it's on my "to do" list; however I would be interested in making contact and sharing information.
I have a copy of a big KNAPMAN family tree compiled in 1999 by a John Knapman in Plymouth, which has my line and thousands of other Knapmans all descending from a William of Throwleigh, Devon in about 1500. There are also several branch lines from various people listed on John Plymouth's Knapman list.
I live in rural northern NSW.
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RobynD
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Dear Maureen,
I am the Great Great Great grandson of John Knapman. I grew up in Port Adelaide b.1953 My gg Grandfather was W. Knapman below. His Son W.H. Knapman my g grandfather. His son Bert my grandfather. His son Max my father. The Cannon Brewery was common knowledge in the family.
As were the Knapman Buildings at the Black Diamond Corner in Port Adelaide.
Regards,
Steve Knapman
Hello cousin, nice to meet you! Your great great great grandmother Mary Ann Waycott was my first cousin 6x removed. Her father John Waycott, a papermaker of Buckfastleigh in Devon, was brother to my great x5 grandfather Richard Waycott. I don't know much about the Knapmans, but I can give you Mary Ann's family back to about 1735. Send me a personal message here if you want to know more.
Regards,
Maureen
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Dear Maureen,
Hello and Thank you. Yes, I would be interested in further family background on ggg grandmother Mary W.
Best,
Steve K.
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Dear Maureen,
Hello and Thank you. Yes, I would be interested in further family background on ggg grandmother Mary W.
Best,
Steve K.
Steve, I've sent you a personal message telling you how to contact me.
Regards,
Maureen
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i'm a relo of james knapman ,son of john knapman and mary ann waycott. how do i get in touch with arishmell?
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Another cousin! I've sent you a personal message with my email address. To contact anyone on RootsChat, just click on their name at the side of the post and you'll be taken to their profile.
Regards,
Maureen
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Just came across your post and wonder it you could send me a copy of any Knapman info you have .
I found my great great grandfather William Knapman's grave in Kingswear Devon where he was a
fisherman. Also traced some relatives back to Throwleigh . Would like to fill in spaces . am now in Canada.
Cheers John Knapman
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Hi - Saw your post after googling this name. My Great Great Grandfather is also William Knapman and is buried in Kingswear Cemetery too! (has to be the same guy?) I am descended from his son also William knapman (see photo) - I have researched this line and would be happy to let you have what I have got - please reply
Cheers
Neil knapman
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Hi Neil,
What a great photograph. Do you use Genes Re-unite website. I have researched the Knapman family back to 1660 to Stoke Gabriel and you can see the tree. Looking at the picture there is a strong family resemblance and I definitely think that William is a much used name throughout.
Bear with me at the moment as I have just moved from a 3bedroom house to a one bedroomed flat so you can imagine I am still getting myself sorted. If you wanted to contact me my e-mail is
(*)
Best Wishes
Hilary
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Great picture of great grandad. I just wish that all this had been shared with us when we were younger. The brothers Doug, my father,George and Lal all went there separate ways. When we were in Kingswear we went in the grave of William and Sarah. No headstone and subsiding onto the path. Seems a shame. Managed to get into the Alms house were they lived out there days.
Seems like quite a family. Cheers John.
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RobynD
Trewman's Exeter Flying Post
I found a reference to "Tollards Field" in an advertisement in the above paper Jan 28 1863. Location described as "Tollard's Field, opposite the Toll Bar, on the Topsham Road, one mile from Exeter". Hopefully this is the location on the map kindly provided earlier by "H". Unable to find a reference to "Tollard's Farm".
Found a reference to F W Knapman in the 23 November 1881 issue where he was amongst the guests at the annual dinner of the Broadclyst Agricultural Association.
The January 4th 1882 issue mentions a Mr and Mrs F Knapman in relation to a Christmas party for children in the Deaf and Dumb Institution and describes them as "friends of the Institution".
These are the only references I can find.
By coincidence I will be staying in Topsham from this Friday. I have visits to Exeter Archives planned (my Devon forebears) and if I can fit them in I will make some enquiries
regards
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RobynD
Have located Tollard's Farm on an 1890 Ordnance Survey map - on the Exeter/Topsham Rd.
In 1920 the Times was advertising the sale of the Wear House Estate, Exeter, the owner (Duckworth-King, Baronet.) having passed away in 1909. He had inherited the estate from his father in about 1893.
The 430 acre estate included "2 excellent dairy farms, Wear Barton 130 acres and Tollard's 90 acres". 18 lots (166 acres) were initially sold and eventually 134 acres were bought by Exeter Golf Club.
In 1885/6 Frederick, therefore, would have been a tenant on this estate. Perhaps the prospect of owning his own farm drew him to the other side of the world?
regards
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Dear Hanes Teulu
Many thanks for the information you have provided. And yes, if you have time when you visit Exeter Archives, I would be very grateful for any information at all that adds to the information in your two posts.
My grandfather Thomas Milton, the youngest child of Frederick and Mary Knapman, was only a young child when they family migrated to Sydney. The oldest son, also Frederick, was the only one who continued farming and he selected land at Coombell, near Casino on the far north coast of NSW - not far from where I now live. The rest of the family lived in Sydney.
However, I know little of their lives in Heavitree, other than the information on the 1881 Census which gives the names of the parents, children, address, Tollards Farm, 180 acres; it sounds as though the farm must have been subdivided if it was only 90 acres in 1920.
So any further information you find would be very welcome. indeed
We will be visiting England in July and I intend going to Exeter if only to be able to see where they lived.
Look forward to hearing from you again
Again - many thanks
RobynD
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Hello Neil,
I am Helping a good family friend, and what would appear to be your distant cousin, a Knapman Descendant.
She has Just started looking into her roots and Knapman is her Ggrandmothers family, I've tentatively arrived at William Knapman B 1804 d 1885 Buried in Kingswear Cemetary with his Wife Sarah (Yeoman marr Totnes 1843), he was sof William and Jane ??
Whilst I havent yet substantiated these with BMD certs, ( primarily as I dont want to spoil the discovery of names etc for my friend,) I wondered if this was your William and wondered if It were would you be willing to share any further info on this line, in fact any help you might offer would be very much appreciated,
Regards
Pav
Swindon UK
Hi - Saw your post after googling this name. My Great Great Grandfather is also William Knapman and is buried in Kingswear Cemetery too! (has to be the same guy?) I am descended from his son also William knapman (see photo) - I have researched this line and would be happy to let you have what I have got - please reply
Cheers
Neil knapman
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Hello, thanks for getting in touch!
Yes I have researched this line, William b1804 and Sarah (Mardon) Knapman are my gggrandparents, they lived their lives in Kingswear and are buried there. William was a mariner and later a market gardener. His son also William b1845 moved to Liverpool to further his maritime career and his descendants (including me, are still here!) Going back further on this line The Knapman's lived in Stoke Gabriel (a village on the banks of the River Dart) going back to the late 1600's After that it is pretty much guesswork I think the family then goes back to Throwleigh on Dartmoor. I have pretty much exhausted what there is from Parish records, there was some old wills but they were destroyed when Hitler bombed Exeter! If I can help you in any way with your research please get in touch.
Kind Regards
Neil Knapman
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Hi Neil, wow thats a quick reply!! thank you for your offer of help,
I believe i am correct when I list the following but would welcome any corrections and earlier additions.
the Line is marked ***: thru Ada Knapman and thru the census I have arrived at William born 1804,sof of william b? and Jane b?.m?
1911 census
Name relation age m/f occupation birthplace
George Henry Knapman *** head 60 marr mason (incapacitated) Kingswear
Mary Knapman wife 50 marr Thurbridge nr brean
George Knapman son 29 single GWR Labourer Kingswear
Bessie Knapman daug 21 single Laundress Kingswear
Beatrice Knapman daug 19 single Laundress Kingswear
Emily M Knapman daug 16 sing Domestic Kingswear
Ada Knapman daug 15 sing Laundrys kingswear
Frederick Knapman son 13 sing school Kingswear
Gladys Knapman daug 6 sing school Kingswear
Sydney Knapman grandson 10m Kingswear
Address Elin?/ cottage Kingswear census not clear does the cottage? still exist?
1901 census
Name Age Where born Administrative county Civil parish Occupation
Fredrick J Knapman 3 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Juvenile
Ada A Knapman 4 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Juvenile
Emily M Knapman 6 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Juvenile
Beatrice Knapman 9 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Juvenile
Bessie M Knapman 11 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Juvenile
Charles F Knapman 13 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Errand Boy (1911 census)
Ethel Knapman 14 Devon Kingswear Devon Brixham Juvenile
William E Knapman 18 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear General Labourer (1911 census)
Mary Knapman 40 Crediton Devon Devon Kingswear
George H Knapman*** 49 Kingswear Devon Devon Kingswear Mason
1891 census
Piece: RG12/1710 Place: Totnes -Devon Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Kingswear Ecclesiastical Parish: Kingswear
Folio: 15 Page: 23 Schedule: 140
Address: Brixham Rd
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
~~~~~~~~
KNAPMAN George H*** Head M M 39 Mason(Em'ee) Devon - Kingswear
KNAPMAN Mary Wife M F 30 Devon - Witheridge
KNAPMAN George H Son - M 9 Scholar Devon - Brixham
KNAPMAN William E Son - M 7 Scholar Devon - Kingswear
KNAPMAN Ethel M Dau - F 4 Devon - Kingswear
KNAPMAN Charles F Son - M 2 Devon - Kingswear
KNAPMAN Bessie M Dau - F 10m Devon - Kingswear
~~~~~~~~
Marriages Jun 1881
Knapman George Henry Totnes 5b 313
Western Mary Totnes 5b 313
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1881 British Census
________________________________________
Household:
Name Relation Marital
Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
William KNAPMAN ***Head M Male 76 Dittisham, Devon, Eng Gardener
Sarah KNAPMAN Wife M Female 73 Kingswear, Devon, Eng
George H. KNAPMAN **Son U Male 30 Kingswear, Devon, Eng Mason
________________________________________
Source Information:
Dwelling Alms House
Census Place Kingswear, Devon, England
Family History Library Film 1341523
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2174 / 6
William Napman
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 04 Mar 1804
Baptism/Christening Place: DITTISHAM,DEVON,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: William Napman
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Jane
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05082-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 917196
Reference Number:
Marriages Jun 1843
KNAPMAN William Totnes 9 559
YEOMAN Sarah Totnes 9 559
I wondered if the 1804 William is the same one buried 1885 in the Kingswear Cemetary with wife Sarah?
also if I have the correct lineage are you able to help with earlier generations at all, anything you care to send would be very greatfully recieved and credit duly noted to you.
I understand from checking that Kingswear P.Registers were not filmed and do not occur on the LDS?? so any further facts you may be able to help with would be a godsend,look forward to hearing from you,
Regards
Pavski
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Hi Pavski
I have a pdf document that shows all the Knapman ancestors I have found, send me your email and I will send it to you
Regards
Neil
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Very Kind of You,
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I assume email address might be removed?
Pav
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I think this might be a picture of your Tollard's Farm
(http://www.devon.gov.uk/print/documents-www5.jpg?url=etched/ixroot/default/db/medium/pd006426.jpg)
from here:
http://www.devon.gov.uk/print/index/cultureheritage/libraries/localstudies/lsdatabase.htm?url=etched/etched/79353/1.html
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Dear Darwin53
Many, many thanks for this copy of the painting of my grandfather's home where he was born and lived before he came to Australia as a 10 year old with his parents and siblings in 1885.
I knew the house had been demolished many years ago and never thought there would be images of the house in existence.
I am enormously grateful and appreciative - it is wonderful to have this image. So thank you again for your trouble.
RobynD
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You're very welcome Robyn - I'm pleased for you that somebody painted it before it was demolished.
It's a small painting and it might be possible to obtain a high quality photocopy of it (or a high resolution photograph). Perhaps you could contact the Westcountry Studies Library, quoting the reference number and see if they'd copy it for you.
westcountry.library[at]devon.gov.uk (replace [at] with @)
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Dear Darwin53
On your suggestion, I contacted the library and they are sending a CD with the photo that I can then print to its full size.
So, many thanks for the photo and your advices.
Out of curiosity, I will try to find just when the house was demolished .
Would anyone have any knowledge of this; or how I could find out?
RobynD
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It was probably demolished shortly before the painting was done (as it says on the back). The artist may have sketched it just before demolition and then painted it later.
It was still standing in 1930 as is shown in this map of 1930 (near bottom right of map)
http://www.artus-familyhistory.com/Exeter%201930/Exeter%201930.html
The houses that were built over it are in Chestnut Avenue, which was built in 1933.
If you look on google maps and compare with the 1930 map, it looks like the farmhouse was where Chestnut Avenue meets Topsham Rd
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Again, many thanks for your kindness in searching for this map. You are so fortunate in knowing which resources to search - difficult for me in Australia to know which repository to find places. I will go there one of these days, just to wander around where my grandfather and his parents and siblings grew up.
RobynD
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I appreciate that this thread is now a bit old, but I have only just seen it, having very recently joined RootsChat. I recognise a lot of the Knapman names mentioned above, and if anyone seeking a Knapman ancestor cares to look on the Devon genealogies pages of the genuki website, they will find a document there giving all of the Knapman families that I have been able to trace. The easiest way to find it is simply to google "Wider Knapman Family". I have recently taken a Y-DNA test, and would encourage any other male Knapmans out there to consider doing the same, via the familytreedna.com/public/Devon group to check out family lines.
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RobynD,
I would be interested in the "copy of a big KNAPMAN family tree compiled in 1999 by a John Knapman in Plymouth, which has my line and thousands of other Knapmans all descending from a William of Throwleigh, Devon in about 1500." I am the great-great grandson of John Brooking and Mary Ann Waycott. Their son Samuel (1835) married Annas Johnson in Silver Hill, North Carolina USA in 1860. Thanks for any help you can provide.
ajaanrick
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I know i'm coming to this discussion very late but I hope RobynD will eventually pick this.
As a child in the late 70s/early 80s, I lived in a semi detached house on Southbrook Road, in Countess Weir.
Our neighbour was an elderly lady who (along with her husband) had bought their house new in about 1940/41. The houses (17, 19, 21 & 23) were built by the same builder who had gone on to live in our house at no 21.
She also told me that the estate was built on land which once belonged to Tollards Farm and this was the reason why the road which ran parallel to Southbrook Road, was (and is still) called Tollards Road.
Further more, I can recall playing in the stream which ran between our estate and the Burnthouse Lane Estate (near to where Chestnut Avenue is located). Next to the water course (about 500 yards upstream from the Topsham Road) was the remains of an old barn, which must have been part of the farm too. Sadly, I don't think anything remains of it now.