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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: diddymiller on Tuesday 12 August 08 16:18 BST (UK)
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Thomas Charlton b. 1842 percy main married mary Ann gardner 3/8/1862 in Tynemouth.
William was born 5/2/1863 percy main
Elizabeth 1865.
thomas died in a railway accident sept 1871 in Newcastle.
Mary Ann I thought married Thomas Purvis before the 1881 census. However, i have at long last just traced them on the 1871 census (April) and they are down as married!! def them as all names / places / dates / children etc match.
I also have a possible census for T.Charlton in Newcastle on his own as a cabsman. he died as a goods guard on the railway.
Is it possible T.Charlton & Mary Ann divorced - did that happen then - OR - she could have just been living with T.Purvis (& had children by him - John T age 1, who i had always assumed was T.Purviss from a previous marriage) and the enumerator assumed they were married.
any thoughts? cheers . Diddy
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Diddy,
To help potential helpers help you, it would be helpful if you shared the info you have, e.g. Census references.
There was no " common" divorce then. The expensive method of divorce was a individual private Act of Parliament.
Michael Dixon
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Hi Diddy
Freebmd has a Thomas Anderson Purvis marrying in Newcastle in Q3 1865 and a possible bride is Mary Ann Riley. Are you sure that your 1871 census entry refers to Mary Ann Gardner and not to Mary Ann Riley?
All the best
Gobbo
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hi everyone. yes sorry Michael - i have so much its difficult to know where to start.
The crucial 1871 census is def them from A**
Jarrow:
Thomas Purvis H m 25 carpenter berwick
Mary Ann Purvis W m 25 Percy Main
Elizabeth Purvis 7 Percy main ( Eliz. Charlton)
John Thomas Purvis 1 Jarrow
Diddy
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Hi Diddy
The 1871 Jarrow family do indeed look to be Mary Ann and Elizabeth living as wife and child with Thomas Purvis (RG10 5040 70 p33 - It's best to always give this citation in case the entry has been indexed under the wrong name). In addition you can find young William Charlton, the son, living with his Grandparents in Percy (RG10 5115 36 p2).
With Thomas Charlton, the father, living until Sep 1871 there is clearly some irregularity in the census claim that Thomas was married - Mary Ann was probably married but to William not Thomas. Thomas is recorded as born in Eyemouth, Berwickshire so he was Scottish. At this time the Scottish law on marriage differed from English law in that the relationship did not need to be registered to be established it was sufficient that the couple should set up house together and jointly acknowledge parentage of any children. So Thomas may not have been aware of this difference between English and Scottish law and probably considered himself married because he was living with and having children by Mary Ann.
Of course if you should discover a registered English marriage between the couple before September 1871 then it would almost certainly have been a bigamous marriage.
It is probably not relevant in this case since I imagine that Thomas was not a wealthy man but had he been there might have been all sorts of complications with his estate when he died - see Wilkie Collins's novel "No name".
All the best
Gobbo
Whoops in the original post I wrote "William" instead of "Thomas" at the start of the second paragraph and hence confused Diddy as well as myself. Sorry!
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At this time the Scottish law on marriage differed from English law in that the relationship did not need to be registered to be established it was sufficient that the couple should set up house together and jointly acknowledge parentage of any children.
Although this was the case, as Diddy would know better than most :), it would still have been bigamy if Mary Ann's husband (and they m. 1862) was still alive and they declared themselves as married.
It looks to me like a separation and the two just living together. It might be that they were being truthful on the census - they were both married but not to each other.
Has a marriage of the two been found post-1871.
Gadget
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thanks for that - interesting take on it. yes i too think T.Purvis and Mary ann were not married. didn't know about English / Scottish difs.
do not understand :
With William Charlton, the father, living until Sep 1871 there is clearly some irregularity in the census claim that Thomas was married - Mary Ann was probably married but to William not Thomas.
Mary Anns marriage ( Ihave cert) was to Thomas Charlton (1842 - 1871)- her son was William ( my GGrandfather). I have him living with the gardners 1871 /81/91
do not have Thomas (1842) on 1851 census. 1861 living with Ann Middleton his father Williams 2nd wife/widow.
Do not have details of this William believed death around 1861 - not got marriages 1. Elizabeth Sanderson (Thomas / Elizabeth mother) 2. Ann Middleton b.1808 New York ,Nbland
Diddy
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have searched for a marriage between 1865 (birth of Elizabeth) and 1871. not found a match yet....
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looks increasingly like a bidie-in, Diddy :-\
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was going to send for birth cert of John Thomas Purvis (1869/70).
would Jarrow birth be Durham or Tynemouth or newcastle? one I have is Tynemouth marQ 10b/191 but there are others.
Ta Diddy
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Jarrow is County Durham - tis across the water :)
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Hi Diddy & Gadget
My understanding (very limited) is that in English law Thomas Purvis was not married to Mary Ann on 2 Apr 1871 because her husband William Charlton was still alive. However, Mary could describe herself as married - she just was not married to the chap she was living with. Thomas, being Scottish, may have thought that he was married because of Scottish custom - looks increasingly like a bidie-in (see Gadget) and so may have been an unwitting bigamist.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi both :)
My reading of it is that Mary Ann would have been the bigamist, if she had married Thomas as the other Mary Ann, using a false name - Riley. Thomas would not have been a bigamist unless he had previously married. If this 1865 marriage was not their marriage then it would not be bigamy under English law. They would have just been living together.
High jinks :D
Gadget
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told my mother today!!!!
suspect it may be simply they were living together and enumerator assumed they were married.
don't think other mary ann marriage is relevant at all. mary Ann had Elizabeth in 1865 so def still with T. Charlton then!!
my understanding is from my aunt (some while back) that the Charltons / Purvises were a very close family. Now we know why!!
Feel sorry for William (1863 my GGrandfather) who was brought up by Mary Anns parents the Gardners. Did Thomas Charlton refuse to allow him to live with his mother because of the situation although Elizabeth was with them?
they all lived pretty close - Percy main / Chirton area. :'(
I love a good story - prob never know but its what makes this hobby so exciting don't you think.
BTW any ideas on William (abt 1815 - 1861)? as posted earlier. can't find him anywhere.
Diddy
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By the way - I DO know where Jarrow is - my mum & dad where both born there and i still have rellies there. just wasn't sure about registration district.
Thanks for help.
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Hi Diddy
What records have you seen of William Charlton (abt 1815-1861).
At the moment I can only trace a possible marriage in the S Shields registration district in Q3 1841 to Elizabeth Sanderson. I cannot find the marriage to Ann Middleton. Do you have any idea of his occupation - it should be shown on Thomas's marriage certificate. How certain are you that Thomas was born in 1842?
Good luck
Gobbo
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Hi Diddy
I expect you know of this:
http://www.durham.gov.uk/DurhamCC/usp.nsf/pws/Registrar+-+purchase+of+registration+certificates
There's an interesting John Thomas Purvis in Durham Northern in 1869 that looks the most likely for Jarrow.
Gadget
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Hi Diddy
Gadget is right about Jarrow now being in North Durham. Freebmd/Genuki show Jarrow as part of the South Shields registration district until this was absorbed in to North Durham.
If John Thomas was one year old on the census day in 1871 (2 Apr 1871) he must have been born between 3 Apr 1869 and 3 Apr 1870, so registration of the birth should have been between Q2 in 1869 and Q2 in 1870.
Freebmd offers two John Purvises with births registered in South Shields in the relevent interval -
John Tully Purvis Q4 1869 S Shields 10a 598
John Tom Purvis Q1 1870 S Shields 10a 675
Good luck
Gobbo
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thanks you 2.
i have Thomas Charltons birth cert 1842. also his marriage and death certs. according to marriage cert William his father was a miner. I know he dies before 1861 as Ann Middleton is on the census as a widow with her mother jane and Thomas in Chirton.
I have been looking at certs in the Tynemouth / newcastle area but this could be wrong so thanks for refs.
I will be away over the weekend from this afternoon.
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almost cert would be John Thomas after father. will prob send for cert.
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free bmd has a marriage listed for Ann Middleton :
sept Q 1859 newcastle 10b/699
click for spouse does not give one - may be worth sending for. will look for Elizabeth death first around then.
Diddy
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Hi Diddy et al
In 1851 there is in Gateshead a widower, William Charleston, 39, miner with 8 year-old son, Thomas, born in Percy Main. (HO107 2402 151 p17). Is this our missing William Charlton?
All the best
Gobbo
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free bmd has a marriage listed for Ann Middleton :
sept Q 1859 newcastle 10b/699
click for spouse does not give one - may be worth sending for. will look for Elizabeth death first around then.
Diddy
On the full index, same quarter, same district, a William Charlton. The page ref is very poor either 119 or 699.Looks like there were 2 William Charltons m. Newcastle that quarter but the page ref is unreadable :(
Gadget
added - the full index has Ann Middleton as page 99!
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Diddy
Just checked that marriage ref on the Newcastle site:
http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/msearch.nsf/msearch?openform
Ann Middleton married a Frederick Pearson, St John the Baptist
:(
Gadget
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hi everyone, just back from weekend away and catching up.
1851 census sounds likely will check tomorrow.
Pleased didn't get around to sending for marriage cert before going away ;D
excellent work everyone - and if census is right i have Williams birth year approx. !!! its been a long time
Good job not working this week - got a lot to do!! Diddy
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free bmd - marriage of William & Elizabeth sanderson sept Q 1841 S Shields 24/136
this must be them - one you gave earlier Gobbo
going to send for this.
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just received birth cert for John Tom Purvis:
he is the son of Thomas Purvis and Mary Ann. she is given as:
Mary Ann Purvis late Charlton formerly Gardner
not very late if Thomas Charlton still alive!!!! will need to carefully check have right death for T. Charlton.
Diddy
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have received marriage cert for William Charlton & Elizabeth Sanderson in 1841 (Thomas Charlton parents) s.shields
William is down as a widower!! so in all he must have married 3 times - 1 unknown between about 1830 (born 1811 - we think from 1851census) 2.-elizabeth Sanderson 3 - Ann middleton
Unfortunately neither of them put their age on the cert - william nothing elizabeth - full age
so more questions!! ::)
Diddy
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free bmd has a birth for a William Thomas Charlton 30/11/1811 chr.15/3/1812 Tynemouth. father John Charlton ( as on marr cert) and Jane Hutton
this would certainly fit - name/ age / place / father / childs name(thomas)
not sure I have any way of uncovering the first marriage. any ideas?
Diddy
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Hi Diddy
I guess you meant to say familysearch has William's 1811 birth - freebmd does not start til 1837.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi Diddy
You can see a copy of William's birth entry on the Durham Bishop's Transcripts. Go to http://search.labs.familysearch.org click on Europe and then look for Diocese of Durham Bishop's Transcripts under England, click on this line and then select Northumberland, Tynemouth, images 1762-1813 and he is the 2nd from the bottom on image 733. John Charlton of Murton was a pitman and native of Ponteland, and his wife Jane Hutton was a native of "this parish" ie Tynemouth.
Good luck
Gobbo
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hi, yes it was LDS!!
Iv'e been trawling through the B Transcripts this morning but not sure now that W T Charlton is the one as I was looking for Earsdon - looking through these was a nightmare as they are in longhand!!!
The 1851 census I have says birth Earsdon - which are listed seperate from Tynemouth. Could it be either?
Diddy
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Hi Diddy
The Tynemouth transcript refers to William's father as John Charlton, Pitman, of Murton, native of Ponteland. I had assumed that John was working in Murton, Durham, and that Jane, the mother, had gone back to her family in Tynemouth for the birth. However, looking on the map for the boundary between Earsdon and Tynemouth I have just noticed a tiny hamlet called Murton that probably lay within the Earsdon district. I guess that that is where John and Jane were living when William was born but that Jane took him to her family church in Tynemouth (about 3 miles) to be christened instead of to Earsdon (about 1 mile). I think you can be reasonably confident that the Tynemouth record refers to your William (and he was born in Earsdon).
Good luck
Gobbo
PS I made this little tree to try to keep track of the Williams and Thomases!
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that is kind, thank you!! alright so William Thomas could be mine.
Now confession time and revelations!!!
you will remember going back to Thomas Charlton 1842 who married Mary Ann. well looking at John Thomas Purvises birth cert MAG was obviously married to father Thomas - so had i the wrong death for Thomas Charlton? the answer is YES> confirmed this morning by his right death cert. He did not die in a railway accident- I was convinced this was him at the time but the move of the family to South of the Tyne meant a relook.
Thomas Charlton d. 30/5/1868 westoe, S.Shields. Engineer informant - John Gardner of Percy main (Mary Anns father)
So actually I was maligning the family name!!!! have apologised to relatives this morning - my aunt is down from Northumberland!!
Now that is cleard up i can really move on the William. Must have a good look at the maps I think.
Thanks Gobbo.
Diddy
BTW forgot - I have found on Genuki a list of Earsdon marriages for 1813 - 1837 right within where i am looking for a first marriage for William. there is
15/5/1836 William Charlton = mary Nesbit this is a possible but B Transcripts dont cover the marriages for this date. >:(
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recently bought the Alan godfrey map OS Earsdon etc 1895
just started to read the notes on the back and it says
"At the time of publication Earsdon had been newly reconstituted as an urban District, containing the civil parishes of Earsdon, Backworth, Holywell and Murton."
there is a lot of info so I must now read it!!! I know this is slightly later than my dates but you are right - there is a Murdon right next door. My map goes down to Murton grange
Diddy
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Ignoring civil authority changes (that came thick and fast towards the end of C19th) Murton (or Moortown) was one of the seven "townships" that made up the Parish of Tynemouth.
There were several other Murton communities within the Parish of Tynemouth.
There were NONE within the Parish of Earsdon in early 1800s
( at a time when ecclessiastic/parish authorities ruled the roost)
The community of Murton. lay within the "township" of Murton, within the Parish of Tynemouth.
The community of Murton Cottage, -ditto- ditto.
The c.of Murton Grange lay within the t. of Whitley, within the p. of Tynemouth.
The c. of Murton Row lay in the t. of Chirton, in the p. of Tynemouth.
The c. of Murton Row Cottages, lay in t. of Chirton, in p. of Tynemouth.
The c of Murton Steads lay in t. of Murton in p. of Tynemouth.
The c. of Murton West House, lay in t. of Murton, in p. of Tynemouth..
And there were other communities called Murton in the north of Northumberland. (and others in Westmorland and Yorkshire)
Michael Dixon
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many thanks for that, michael. We can always rely on you to 'be in the know'
(and i mean that in a nice way!!) ;D
Diddy