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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: audrey69 on Monday 01 September 08 09:08 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know what happened to Phpineas Wornham b. 1847, Sussex and his wife Mary Ann? They are on the 1881 census but after that Phineas vanishes and Mary Ann was last seen on the 1891 census in Fletching, Sussex. Any help appreciated.
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I don't know where Phineas has gone (prison, some sort of institution perhaps?) but Mary (still married), Phoebe and Ernest are still at the same address in 1901 as they were in 1891. Use just this reference, no names, to sidestep any mistranscriptions etc: RG13/902/127/6
Anna
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The 1891 reference, to assist others, is: RG12/786/133/12
Anna :)
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Here's an oddity...
Ernest J Wornham b Fletching is with Mary A. (as her son) in 1891 (aged 5) and 1901 (aged 15).
There's only one matching birth reg.:
Ernest John WORNHAM Mar 1886 Uckfield 2b 153
This appears to be his baptism entry
England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906
Name: Ernest John Wornham
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 7 Feb 1886
Christening Place: Fletching, Sussex, England
Father's Name: Henry Wornham
Mother's Name: Mary Anne
Has Phineas changed his name ???
Anna
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We are thinking along similar lines here, though you are one step ahead!
Birth:
Jan/Feb/Mar 1879
Phoebe Alice Wornham
Godstone 2a 168
Jan/Feb/Mar 1856
Ernest John Wornham
Uckfield 2b 153
I was thinking that it might be an idea to get Ernest's birth cert to see if his father was Phineas, or a.n. other. I was thinking that as he was born in Fletching, he could have been born after they had "split up" - or even be the reason for the split!
however you are one step ahead and have found this christening.
Hmm Henry. Either Phineas has changed his name or she had a little fling with his brother or cousin.... ?
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Incidently, I cannt find them al together in 1881 - has anyone the reference?
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From IGI
Christening 12 Jan 1879
Phoebe Alice Wornham
Godstone
Parents Henry and Mary Ann
.... so cancel my accusations - looks more like Phineas was known as Henry or vice versa
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All very odd.
Phineas did have a brother Henry baptised 1843 who was still alive and with the family in 1851: HO107/1645/650/41.
Perhaps Henry died and Phineas adopted his identity? Or something...
Anna
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Neither Henry nor Phineas was with parents in 1861:
RG9/594/63/34
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Marriage
Jul/Aug/Sep 1874
Godstone
Henry Wornham to Mary Ann Stacey
I am wondering where Phineas comes into this at all...
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Marriage
Jul/Aug/Sep 1874
Godstone
Henry Wornham to Mary Ann Stacey
I am wondering where Phineas comes into this at all...
Most odd! He's "Pheneas" in 1881:
RG11/1055/59/11
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Interesting - so they had made the move to FLetching by 1881 then.
Really strange, because this is before Ernest is born - he has father Henry, and after Phoebe is born and she has father Henry.
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I'm wondering whether "Pheneas" in 1881 was an alias for Henry, who for some reason didn't want to give the "authorities" his real name.
I can't easily find either Henry or Phineas in 1861.
In 1871 I see a Henry "Warman" (possibly "Worman") boarding at racing stables in Portslade, Sussex who is a stableman - same occupation as "Pheneas" had in 1881. Possibly some connection? At 25 he is exactly between the respective ages of Henry and Phineas Wornham: RG10/1093/25/42.
Anna
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There is a death:
Jul/Aug/Sep 1912
Newhaven Sussex 2b 204
Henry Wornham age 67
May be a red herring or may be Henry, brother of Phineas, or maybe Phineas known as henry..... :-\
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I'm wondering whether "Pheneas" in 1881 was an alias for Henry, who for some reason didn't want to give the "authorities" his real name.
but we know Phineas did exist
IGI
christening
31 Jan 1847
St Nicholas Brighton
Phineas Wornham
son of henry and Jane
plus both Phineas and Henry with parents (Henry and Jane) in 1851, as you found earlier.
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presumably you have his birth
Births Mar 1847
Wornham Phineas Brighton 7 (no pg no. )
the trouble is if he changed his name there are no regsiters of same, and even if he didnt do it offically anyone can call themselves anything as long as its not for (Illegal i.e. fraudlent purposes
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I know Phineas existed, and we know he co-existed with his brother Henry because I found them together with their parents in 1851, as above.
But the only connection we know of between Phineas and the Mary Ann/Minnie/Phoebe/Ernest family is the 1881 census. The marriage and baptisms for that family show the man of that family consistently as Henry. So I'm wondering whether in 1881 "Pheneas" was really Henry giving a false name for some reason (and the false name which came to his mind was that of his brother Phineas).
Anna
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maybe Henry was just a shortened verison of Phenias i.e that whats he went by
the Hen is there inhis name :-\
do you have any of the childrens birth certs naming Phenias as father like Minnie ?
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I tend to favour Anna's theory - that it is actually the Henry who is the man here. It is Henry who married Mary Ann, fathered the three children, calls himself Phineas after his brother who has already disappeared in 1881 for reasons unknown, and disappears himself.... maybe back to Portslade/Brighton/Newhaven area...
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Audrey:
In case this might be useful to you I attach a link from the Berkshire FHS site: perhaps it might provide some answers or some useful background.
www.flexibase.freeserve.co.uk/wrnm/
One name study: W*R*N*M (Warnham / Wernham / Wirdnam / Wirnham / Wornham etc) surname with other surname close links. All dates, all places but most in Berkshire.
Rachel
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i wonder if you have looked under P W born Brighton 1847 or even unknow
some places indexed their 'inmates' by initals and not all birth places were known
not very helpful to us but it may be the case
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Thank you everyone for your help and I hate to put a spanner in the works but Henry and Pheneas/Phineas are 2 different people. I have Henry recorded as born in 1843 and Pheneas/Phineas in 1847 with baptisms for each. Henry, I believe married Mary Ann Stacey but the Mary Ann married to Pheneas/Phineas is still unknown other than the fact that she was from Croydon area.
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Audrey:
We know that they were 2 different people - see my post no 16 above...
Anna
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Does anyone know what happened to Phpineas Wornham b. 1847, Sussex and his wife Mary Ann? They are on the 1881 census but after that Phineas vanishes and Mary Ann was last seen on the 1891 census in Fletching, Sussex. Any help appreciated.
Yes - I have some details of his descendants. Please contact me on David@flexibase.org.uk
www.flexibase.talktalk/wrnm
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Audrey:
In case this might be useful to you I attach a link from the Berkshire FHS site: perhaps it might provide some answers or some useful background.
www.flexibase.freeserve.co.uk/wrnm/
One name study: W*R*N*M (Warnham / Wernham / Wirdnam / Wirnham / Wornham etc) surname with other surname close links. All dates, all places but most in Berkshire.
Rachel
My web page as mentioned above has now moved to www.flexibase.talktalk/wrnm
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Hi - I know this post has been inactive for some time but I'm just wondering if the mystery of Phineas / Henry was unravelled at all?
My grt grt grandmother was Mary Ann Stacey's sister.
I've tried to find the one name study database that has been mentioned in a couple of posts above but the host website has disappeared.
Thanks,
Andrea
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Henry Wornham, 66, can be found in the free index to the 1911 census, he is in Brighton workhouse.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BY-G94
The new GRO birth index has the registrations of Minnie, Phoebe Alice, and Ernest John, which confirm mother's maiden name was Stacey.
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Thanks. Meanwhile in 1911 Mary Ann is alive and well living with a daughter.
Henry was the name of her husband on all documents until 1881 when it changed to Phineas which is what is confusing.
In 1911 Mary Ann is still recording herself as married - as opposed to widowed.