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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: polidor on Sunday 07 September 08 23:04 BST (UK)
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Free Reg shows Maria Copperwheat married Charles Bromwich in July 1841. Thorpe St Andrew Norfolk
Record shows that Charles was a "Private Of The th. Royals"
Which th. do they mean!!! the transcriber obviously couldn't make out the whole regiment no..
Would his regiment be to do with Norfolk maybe? Any clues will be a help--thank you from poli.
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Hi Poli
I think it is more likely to be a cavalry regiment than an infantry one. An infantry regiment would need four battalions to need ‘th’ and I cannot think of one at the time. About a dozen infantry regiments had Royal in their title, but not the East or West Norfolk regiments.
The cavalry regiment called the ‘Royals’ today would have been the 1st (Royal) Regiment of Dragoons in the 1840s, so I don’t see them needing ‘th’ to describe them. He could have been in the 7th (Princess Royal’s) Regiment of Dragoon Guards.
I have found Maria in the 1841 Census. If you could find Charles you should be able to get his regiment from the names of the officers if he was in some sort of barracks. I see Maria’s father (?) was an army pensioner.
Ken
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If you purchased a copy of the marriage certificate it should solve the problem for you.
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Thank you all very much-- KM--Maria's father was with the 11th Dragoons. The marriage lines Hackstaple--good idea, oddly enough i had already considered sending for it as verification of Maria's birth date. The 1841 shows her as b in 1826 which would make her only 15 when wed. Free Reg marriage record shows her as a 'minor' so i should get two answers for the price of one [hopefully]
Again, thankyou all. Poli :)
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The 1841 shows her as b in 1826 which would make her only 15 when wed. Free Reg marriage record shows her as a 'minor' so i should get two answers for the price of one [hopefully]
Again, thankyou all. Poli :)
The 1841 census would show her as age 15. Since ages over 15 were rounded down to five years in that census she was actually anything between 15 and 19 and could have been born in 1922 or even after the census date in 1921.
David
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Hi Poli
The papers for Charles Bromwich and John Cooperwheat (what great names btw) do not appear to have survived. You can search online in the index of men discharged before the end of 1854 in the NA Catalogue - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp putting WO (for War Office) as the Series Code - and I cannot see them.
There are other possibilities though - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm especially the Muster and Pay Lists (WO12) for John as you know his regiment. You will get virtually no FH information in this period, but at least you can see the towns where the 11th were month by month, and so where he may have had children.
I see from the 1841 Census only the mother (?) was born in Norfolk. Did John survive to 1851, and if so where was he born?
Ken
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Hi Ken, Maria's father John Copperwheat, served in the 11th Dragoons with the miss-spelt surname of Copperwhite! i found his 'Statement of Service' papers from the N.Archives and sent for them some time ago. He finished his army days in 1824. Ended up in Norfolk.
Like you however, i cannot find anything for Charles Bromwich [so far that is] i shall carry on looking though.
I searched Find My Past in the Military section for Army BMDs and came across 3 of Maria's siblings births, her brother John [John junior] being my 2nd Gt Grandfather.
I cannot find Charles or a Maria Bromwich in any census except of course for Maria herself in 1841. Tried a variety of spellings but apart from getting cross eyed have had no luck so far.
John Copperwheat , Maria's father was born in Bedfordshire. He died in 1853. her mother lived till 1868. i have their certs. I have now sent for Maria's & Charles marriage lines as Hackstaple suggested.
Maria's brother John was born in Carlow Ireland, Mary Ann in France & Robert in Canterbury Kent.
Maria's birthplace i am still not 100% sure of , 1841 says Norfolk but i saw somewhere [cannot remember where!] the words"Not born Norfolk"in relation to her ::) Still 'iffy' about her actual birth year census dates being what they are!
Poli.
Today-- p.s Found a Charles & Maria Bromwich in 1891 [he's an ag lab]
Then in 1901 with a sister in law named Franck !! may be Francis.
How i missed them first time round--well-- ::) ::)
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Have just recieved the marriage cert of Maria & Charles--and wouldn't you know it--a bad copy !! Charles was a 'Private of the 6th something' does it actually say "Royals?? or is it Regiment or something else entirely----anyone with 20-20 vision? ;D
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6th Regiment Of Foot i think ended up been Royal Warwickshire Regiment...unsure on dates??
Kens hopefully got a better idea?
:)
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Hi Poli
It probably is 6th Royals. The 6th Regiment of Foot (ie infantry) were the 1st Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Maybe they were called the Royals.
The cavalry regiments were the 6th Dragoons Guards (Carabineers) and the 6th (Inniskilling) Regt of Dragoons. Maybe it is a local militia unit.
Was the male witness a soldier?
Ken
PS..no more than you Ady
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Thanks for the replies km1971 & mmm45.
Will try to find out about the marriage witness and get back to you--have to run now, have got a darts match to play--back on Roots later ;D
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back again---have looked on national archives and Googled the 6th Royals and have got nowhere. the 2 regiments mentioned by ken are the only ones i can find referring to the word '6th'. Frederick Weeds was one of the witnesses at Charles' wedding , i've found him in the 1841 census but can see no reference to the army.
I had hoped that the fact that Charles and Maria married in Norfolk might have some bearing on which regiment Charles was in but am stuck.
I appreciate the suggestions re this post and i will plough on and see if i can find out anything else. Poli.
P.s---Re The 6th Regiment of Foot (ie infantry) were the 1st Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Maybe they were called the Royals.
Checked up on Charles birthplace--he was born in Warwickshire. so the above is a possibility?
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Checked up on Charles birthplace--he was born in Warwickshire. so the above is a possibility?
If it was 20 years later it would be more certain. Problem in the 1840s is that there were no permanant depots so the county name is be a bit of a red herring. The nearest Army List I have is the 1850, and they had a battalion in the Cape and a reserve battalion (persumably with the Depot) in Fermoy, Ireland.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
I've been going through the censuses in both ancestry & F.M.Past
They married after the 1841 census so not as a couple there.
1851--can't find either of them
1871--Maria with a son Joseph E Bromwich [Charles's father was a Joseph] born 1852 Mauritius British Subject.
Would it help if i could find out if there was a war on in Mauritius in c 1850-2 perhaps Charles was fighting there, plus wife??? clue to regiment ?
Help--talk about straw grasping!! ::) Poli.
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Hi Poli
Mauritius was a base in this period. A battalion could be based there and provide detachments to other Indian Ocean islands. You really need a later Army List, but in the 1850 Hart’s Army List I have found:
= 1st Bn 12th Foot – returned from Mauritius March 1848
= 35th Foot - returned from Mauritius April 1848
So there were at least two battalions there at the same time. It does not say which regiments were there at the start of 1850. I believe it came under the command of the Cape, so the 7th Foot could have served there for a time while it is listed as being at the Cape.
Ken
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Thankyou Ken,
i shall do some more'Googling' and see what i can find re detachments based in Mauritius around c1850.
I made the mistake of looking for wars in Mauritius itself yesterday and came across several comments re 'the Cape' but didn't follow that up. will try and do so now. poli.
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I've found the regiment at last---but in a most unexpected fashion--
i was looking at probate/wills on a Norfolk website and found my 3rd Gt Grandfather's will. He was Maria's father and she was named in his will as "wife of Charles Brumwich [sp] a soldier in the 12th Regiment of Foot".
To say i was delighted is putting it mildly. poli ;D
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He must have transferred from the 6th Regt at some stage. The answer lies in the Muster and Pay Lists in Kew.
Ken