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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: Cajondy on Monday 29 September 08 02:55 BST (UK)
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Hello there
I wonder if anyone can help clear up some confusion of mine...
I've managed to successfully locate my ancestry back to my grt grt grandfather Willaim Bateman born 1853 who could be the son of Miles and Mary (nee Udall) - or could be the son of Miles and Elizabeth (nee Parker) - this is wher my confusion begins!
His marriage certificate identifies his father being Miles (balcksmith) - which suggests he's the sone of Miles and Mary (the other Miles was a farmer!)
I have no idea how to validate exactly which is his father, and am therefore suck in progressing any further back
Miles (the Blacksmith) was from Kirkby Lonsdale and Miles the farmer was from Cowperthwaite - neither too far away from the other! To add to the confusion - both Miles had sons called William, and in both instances they were born in 1853
William married ELizabeth Capstick from Dillicar - if that helps......
Can anyone please help
thanks in advance
regards
Cajondy
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Have you checked censuses to see if there is a Miles who is a blacksmith. If you have done that and you have one who is a farmer and one a blacksmith then you go with the information given on the marriage certificate.
Do you need someone to check censuses for you?
Jen
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I have found this family which I think is the one you are looking for:
1851
Half Island House, Firbank, Kirkby Lonsdale
William Bateman, 48, blacksmith, born Lancs, Cartmel
Mary, 46, Westmorland, New Hutton
Mary, dau, 25, servant at home, Firbank
Miles, son,21, blacksmith
James, 18, " app.
John, 16 "
Betty, 10
Eleanor, 6
William, 2 grandson
Richard Greenbank, lodger
Thomas Greenbank "
Willm " "
All the children born Firbank
This looks like Miles the father of your William so in later censuses, we should be able to find him by his place of birth.
Jen
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I think I might have cracked this one!
We know that Miles Bateman married Mary Udall.
There is a death of a Miles Bateman, in 1859, Kendal. Dec 1859, 10b/387
In 1861, Mary Bateman, aged 28,widowed, is living as a housekeeper in Firbank, with a son Miles, aged 1.
At the same time:
William Bateman, aged 6, is with his grandparents, William and Mary Bateman at Half Island House!
So I think you can safely assume that this is your William, with father and grandfather both blacksmiths.
If you want full census details for 1861, let me know and I'll post them.
Jen
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Hi there
thank you for your messages and resourcefulness - much appreciated.
I was almost certain this was the right Miles - looks like it to me too... I just need to find the right birth certificate for him to validate.....
thanks again
Cajondy
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When you are ordering certificates online, you can put in some information which can be checked. So if you give his father's occupation, blacksmith, as a reference point, it should avoid confusion with the other Wm, son of Miles the farmer. I think there is also a box for mother's maiden name.
Jen
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Hi
If you are not sure about a certificate it is sometime worth enquiring at the local register office rather than the GRO. They do not need the reference number - just an approximate date - and will check details free for you usually. Still costs £7 and many take credit cards now.
Andrea
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Jen
thanks for your help - I will search the 1861 census and get the data directly myself - thank you
Andrea
thanks for the tip - I'll see how I get on and may well try the local registry offices (bit of a shame as I was staying in Ambleside only last week for a few days break - taking photos of ancestral homesteads
thanks again
regards
Cajondy
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A little off the topic - I am trying to trace my Great Grandmother's family. My grandmother was born in Mary Bateman in How Gill, Yorkshire, c. 1881 (maybe 1880). She lived with her grandmother of the same name in Dillicar in 1901. The grandmother Mary Bateman was living in the Post Office, and was a grocer and school mistress.
My questions are these:
1) Is the grandmother possibly Mary Udall, who was the widow of Miles Bateman?
2) Did her son, William Bateman, have a daughter Mary c. 1880-1881?
3) Anyone know the grandmother's parents and/or Miles' parents if he was indeed the right husband?!
I get a little confused as there are two Mary's married into the Bateman family in the area and they were born and died in the same year.... very confusing!!
Any help anyone can offer will be much appreciated.
Thanks all.
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Hi there
The older Mary was the wife of the late Miles and is indeed nee Udall
The 20 year old Mary is the daughter of William and Eluzabeth (nee Capstick)
What is yr connection to this line if Batemans?
Wm & Eliz are my 2 x grt grandparents
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Sorry, forgot to say
I believe Mary Udalls parents were John Udall and Elizabeth
Hope this helps
Cabinet
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Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated. I am happy it is Mary Udall as I can find a bit of information on her.
William and Mary as also my 2 x Grt Grandparents! The lineage goes as follows:
William Bateman and Mary Udall have a daughter Mary Bateman in How Gill c. 1881
Mary Bateman marries Robert Park and they have three sons and one daughter, the third son is Edwin Park in 1919.
Moderator Comment: details of living persons removed to avoid identity theft etc.
What is your connection?
Thank you again for all your help.
Regards
Darkladee
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Hi there
I've sent a message to you in Ancestry with details of birth details for Mary, William and Elizabeth Hannah and marriage details for William and Elizabeth
Let me know if I can assist further
William (Mary's brother) is my grt grandfather)
regards
Cajondy
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Thank you again for your help.
Regards
Darklady
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No problem - happy to help if and where I can
do you know what age Mary Bateman (Park) was when she passed away? I understood she was quite young....
Did you say Mary was your grandmother?
Do you know if her sister Elizabeth got married? I understand she also passed away quite early in life too (I'm not sure why but for some reason I'm thinking both Mary and her sister passed away in their forties?
Let me know if I can assist any further
regards
Cajondy
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I've just joined Rootschat, being very new at genealogy.
I'm starting to research Batemans of Westmorland - because I am one.
I was brought up very near to Grayrigg - father from Firbank, mother (Capstick) from Howgill - and have passed Cowperthwaite / visited Beckfoot many times as a youth.
As others have noted, the Batemans are swamped with the same names through generations - Miles, James, John, Robert ... and often marry Mary, Elizabeth, Eleanor or Margaret ...
A similar repetition applies to trades - either farmers and blacksmiths (although there some very renowned artists and industrialists do pop up here and there).
As yet, I don't have much data, other than a tree compiled by my distant cousin(s) some years ago.
From that, I'm fairly sure that a William Bateman (1828-1875) is my great, great grandfather - wife Eleanor nee Nicholson (1836 -).
William was a blacksmith at Patton Bridge, as then were two of his sons - John, born 1856? (my great grandfather from his second marriage, but known as Jack), and also Miles (I think).
The thread above is fascinating, and whilst I haven't yet absorbed its implications in my own mind, I can concur concerning the existence of two sets of Miles Batemans - one family at Cowperthwaite, one at Half Island House, Beckfoot. The homes are indeed very close - on a bike it takes about two minutes to ride between the former and latter (down a very steep hill).
By my (admittedly incomplete understanding), Miles (1813- ) at Cowperthwaite was married to Elizabeth nee Parker, and from above I learn that Miles (1803-) at Beckfoot was married to Mary nee Udall.
My g.g.gf William (1828-1875) as above did, I understand, himself have a brother Miles (but I can't yet reconcile him with either of the Miles at Cowperthwaite or Beckfoot). The ages, trades and locations are so close, but the connections are not yet definitive (from my limited awareness).
Anyway, I would welcome any discussion or contributions, and would be pleased to share anything else I know (or suspect)
best wishes to all
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Hi
And welcome to roots chat...
Your relative that did family tree research wasn’t by any chance DEREK Bateman was it?
I’ve not done much more research the last few years, but hoping to get back in to it soon
My mother was a Bateman (maiden name)... would be good to get in touch once you’ve got a bit more familiar with your family tree, etc
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Cajondy
thank you for your welcome and reply of 2019-07-18
No, my relative who did the work was Robin Bateman (great grandson of the William Bateman I referenced in my previous post).
Yes, let's keep in contact as time progresses
many thanks
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Hi
There are Capsticjs, Udalls & Parker’s married in to my Bateman’s... let’s try to compare notes in private forum soon
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Cajondy
Yes, ok (am likely to be off-line for a couple of weeks or so)
:)
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Cajondy
Apologies if the following might not add anything to what you already know, but for what it's worth, I came across something on a random trawl that started on Miles & Elizabeth Bateman of Cowperthwaite.
It led to a personal genealogy site (on 'geni') - I'm not sure of the citing protocol so I'll just allude for now.
Anyway, it's pretty conclusive from what is a comprehensive site that both Thomas and William, two of the five sons of M & EB, emigrated to Ontario, Canada. From the dates and places of birth of their eldest children, I reckon that they traveled (probably together?) at a date between 1880 and 1883.
The site doesn't pursue M & EB's other three sons - Robert, Miles and James - presumably/perhaps because they are not of direct interest to the site's owner?
Incidentally (as evidence that Elizabeth was nee Parker) her eldest son Robert's second name was Parker (1851 census), as was that of her grandson Thomas - the son of her son Thomas in Canada.
Hope that's not too cryptic :)
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Hello Cajondy, Darklady (& gengen)
It's clear we have a lot in common in terms of the Bateman line.
In recent times, I've done a good deal of digging and diagnosis.
My own analysis has been helped by creating an electronic version of 'post-it notes on a wall' summarising the census records from 1841 to 1901 that include Bateman families & connections in Dillicar, Firbank, Patton, Grayrigg, Howgill etc. By adding connecting threads I can pictorially trace how a given person stays /moves / marries / disappears etc over each decade. Of course other information adds to the scene too.
It's very fortunate that so many Bateman families and spouses stayed in immediate vicinity at, say, High Island House, Cowperthwaite, Birchfield, Goodies, Bowers, Lakethwaite, Knott Hall, Cold Seat, Beck Foot Post Office etc. As you know, these places are all within a stone's throw of each other. My parents, cousins and uncles lived in some of these homes in my lifetime (one uncle still does). I visited the Post Office as a boy, when my grandfather's sister (Eleanor Proctor nee Bateman) was doing the same job as did Mary Bateman nee Udall in earlier times.
It isn't easy to comment precisely on previous postings because of the proliferation of William / Mary/ Miles / Elizabeth, so I hope we might establish private communication, please. Cajondy - you have already suggested that on another thread, I know.
Just to say, though with reference to Darklady's post of 16 August 2010 (which is of course some years ago) I concur with all the suppositions you raise. I happen to have a screenshot of Mary Udall's baptism record at the Inghamite chapel in Kendal on 22nd Jan 1863 (born 22nd Dec 1822).
My own ancestry is that William Bateman (b~1826) blacksmith & whitesmith of Half Island House is my great, great grandfather. He is the brother of blacksmith Miles who married Mary Udall. My understanding is that Miles died 20th Oct 1859, aged 29 at Ewe Bank, Old Hutton. The distribution at that time of recently widowed Mary's young children - James (~1855) and William (~1857) - with parents and parents-in-law respectively, whilst she cares for 1 year old son Miles (~1860) is a poignant insight to her situation, particularly as Mary and Miles also had a fourth son James who died aged 5 on 4th February 1860, just a few months after his father's death.
Anyway, I do hope Darklady that you are still online, and that we can communicate further.
Cajondy - I will purpose to respond to you on that other thread.
with best wishes
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I've just realised that I've been referring to 'the other thread' when it is in fact this one
Apologies for any confusion
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Nametabpoppy
We should definitely connect - for sure we are distant cousins ☺️
A number of the ancestral homes you have mentioned are also ancestral homes of my Bateman’s - and many I’ve visited as part of my ancestral research - Knott Hall being the most recent (all be it 5 or so years ago). It was under significant renovation and modernisation at the time - as was the home of my great grandmothers house which could surely be seen from the distance
How lucky my great grandparents were to live in what must have been such an unblemished part of the world - marred now by the M6, but still adequately remote to be tranquil
I’ve not had much time for my ancestral research these last few years, but do look forward to retirement (one day) and more time to drill further in to my roots
Keep in touch - even if you don’t get a reply for a while
Cajondy
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Hello Cajondy & Happy Christmas
Just to say, I did send you a personal message a few weeks ago.
It was the first (and only) one I have sent on RootsChat, but I remain unsure whether it reached you.
Let me know, if you can
many thanks
Alan
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Hi nametabpoppy
And a merry Christmas to you too...
No, I’m afraid other than the messages in this link I don’t appear to have had any further messages from you..
When you say you sent a private message to me, do you know where it might appear / how I might be able to check elsewhere?
I look forward to hearing from you
Cajondy
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If I knew the RootsChat set-up better, I'd be able to answer where it might be.
I'll investigate, and let you know what I might find
(might take a while ...) :)
best wishes
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Lol... good luck ☺️
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Cajondy
If I go to the 'My Messages' menu drop-down, then I can see my message sent to you (25th Oct).
It was a general courtesy reply to your suggestion to keep in touch.
Do you see anything when if you were to open your 'My Messages' menu?
:)
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Hello Cajondy,
You will have been notified of a private message by email but if you missed it the pm should still be there.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Nametabpoppy & Sarah
Thank you - I found it!!! :) :)
Actually (confession time!) it seems I’ve used PM before, all be it years ago! (Doh!)... I really do need to retire and make more time to do my ancestral research before I lose my marbles... :o
Cajondy
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Hi Nametabpoppy
I have - at last (!!) - replied to your PM
Hope to hear from you soon
Cajondy
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My 4th g gf is Richard Bateman (1789-1860) of Kirby Lonsdale, Westmorland, married Mary Kitchen (1791-1852). From Ancestry.com his father may be Thomas Bateman (1753-1806) and his grandfather possibly Thomas Bateman (1721-1790) then Lawrence Bateman (1703-1772) and Lawrence Bateman (around 1650-1700) but I'm not at all confident in these earlier connections. Would be great if anyone has information to help. Thanks.
Dave
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Hello Dave , Had a look at Kirkby Lonsdales records , The Richard Bateman born 1789 was bap june 1st born 2nd feb , parents John / Margaret of Caserton , hope that helps , westlass
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Hi Westlass
Thank you so much, that's great info and will help a lot. Are the Kirkby Lonsdale records available online? Appreciate a link if available.
Thanks again,
Dave
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Hello , I got my copy of records from Cumbria Family History Society , but they only go to 1812 , Think John Bateman was married to a Margaret Storey in 1785 , John father looks to be Matthew . happy hunting , westlass
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Thank you very much, really appreciate this.
Thanks
Dave
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Dave , I will have a look later , to see other children born to couple they might help in your search
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Hi , I have Margaret 1799 / John 1787 / 1792 and Sarah 1786 , Richard married Mary Kitchen 1812 , may 4th , could not find a death for a John between 1787 / 1792 , regards westlass
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That's great, thank you so much
Cheers
Dave
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To DarkLady:
it's a long time ago since you posted, but if you're still active, I can share information about your family.
Miles Bateman's (1830-1859) parents were William B (1801-1865) and Mary nee Fawcett (1804-)
Miles was the Old Hutton blacksmith; William was the Beck Foot blacksmith at Half Island House.
Miles was the husband of Mary Udall (1832-)
After her widowhood, Mary ran the Beck Foot PO & grocers - (which stayed in the Bateman line for several generations)
William is my 3xGreatGrandfather
best wishes