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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: cimbrio on Thursday 30 October 08 16:02 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone, this is the first time I write in this forum. I hope I'll find what I'm looking for.
I'm searching any information of anyone connected with or who possesses any facts about the family of Samuel C. Morris, born 1823 in Kington (Herefordshire), christened there that same year (September 14th); exact birth date unknown; death date possibly in 1897.
Parents:
Samuel Morris (b. 1789 Hereford - Saint Peter's)
Ann Derry (christened January 2nd 1794 in Kimbolton, Herefordshire).
Siblings
James (christened 1815 Kimbolton)
Caroline (ditto 1816, Grendon Bishop)
Mary (ditto 1820 Kington)
Edward Scarlett (ditto 1821 Eye)
Charlotte (ditto 1826 Kington)
Family:
WIFE: Ellen Mound, born 1826 Wormsley.
Married 1848 Weobley.
CHILDREN:
Catherine Morris (1849 Kinnersley)
Samuel Cartwright Morris (1851 North Cannon), my ancestor.
Ellen Morris (1855 Kinnersley)
Richard Thomas Morris (1860 Kinnersley)
Mary Morris (1867 Kinnersley)
Would be grateful if you could provide me with any information, as I haven't found much on here about the Morris family. My e-mail: (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
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What sort of info are you after? For example do you have them on census returns?
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Absolutely any sort of info would do. Dates of death, marriage, their ancestry... anything would come in handy. I once saw the census entries which more or less gave me their years of birth and so on but it was all quite limited. I'd love to know if they had any further descendants or where they came from. Thanks for any info you can forward me!
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Ok, I've found them on some census returns. I'll have another look to see if I can find them on the other censuses.
1861 Census: Kinnersley (RG9/piece 1825/ Folio 126/ Page 16)
Samuel C Morris H 38 Journeyman carpenter bn Kington, Heref.
Ellen Morris W 36 bn Wormsley, Heref.
Catherine Morris D 12 SCholar bn Kinnersley, Heref.
Samuel Morris S 10 Scholar bn Norton Canon, Heref.
Ellen Morris D 5 Scholar bn Kinnersley, Heref.
Richard T Morris S 1 bn Kinnersley, Heref.
Samuel Morris father (widower) 72 Tailor bn Hereford St Peter
1881 Census Parton, Kinnersley (RG11/Piece 2599/Folio 121/PAge12)
Samuel Morris H 57 Labourer bn Kington, Heref.
Ellen Morris W 55 bn Wormsley, Heref.
Richard Thos Morris S 21 Labourer bn Kinnersley, Heref.
Mary Morris D 14 bn Kinnersley, Heref.
1891 Census Boltons Farm, Pembridge (RG12/Piece 2077/ Folio 95/ Page 15)
Samuel C Morris H 69 Farmer bn KIngton, Heref.
Ellen Morris W 66 bn Wormsley, Heref.
Richard T Morris S 31 bn Kinnersley, Heref.
+ 2 farm servants
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1871 Census Kinnersley, Aily (?) Kinnersely (RG10/Piece 2706/ Folio 44/ Page 11)
Samuel C Morris H 47 Carpenter bn Kington
Ellen Morris W 45 bn Wormsley Grange
Samuel Morris S 20 Carpenter bn Norton Canon
Ellen Morris d 15 General Servant bn Kinnersley
Richard T Morris S 11 Scholar bn Kinnersley
Mary Morris D 4 bn Kinnersley
1901 Census Eardisland, Dowsage
Richard Morris H 41 Labourer on farm bn Kinnersley
Ellen Morris Mother (widowed) 75 Housekeeper bn Wormsley.
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Samuel dies in May 1897 - aged 73 he was a carpenter
Ellen dies in January 1912 - aged 86. In 1901 she is living with son Richard in Eardisland
Another son Thomas born in 1853 lived for just over a year
A Samuel Morris marries Anne Derry in Kimbolton in August 1813 but there is a marriage between a Samuel Morris and Anne Cartwright in Kington also in 1813 - would you think this is more likely as the name Cartwright turns up as a middle name for Samuel ???
Samuel snr [aged 61] and Ann [aged 63] were in Kinnersley with daughter Mary [aged 30] and Catherine aged 1 in 1851. She appears to be the daughter of Samuel and Ellen [Maund] while baby Samuel aged 1 month is at home with Samuel and Ellen in Norton Canon
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Spidermonkey - I found Samuel down as a Carpenter and Ellen as a Carpenter's Wife on the 1881 Cenus, and Richard Thomas the son as a Labourer
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Thanks Puffcat, the marriage info about Samuel marrying the Derry/Cartwright comes as a sort of surprise... I'll have to check that one out and I'll post any news. Do you have any idea where Ellen Morris died in 1912? Is anyone here related to them, by the way? Where was baby Thomas born/died?
Thanks a lot!
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Samuel dies in May 1897 - aged 73 he was a carpenter
Ellen dies in January 1912 - aged 86. In 1901 she is living with son Richard in Eardisland
Another son Thomas born in 1853 lived for just over a year
A Samuel Morris marries Anne Derry in Kimbolton in August 1813 but there is a marriage between a Samuel Morris and Anne Cartwright in Kington also in 1813 - would you think this is more likely as the name Cartwright turns up as a middle name for Samuel ???
Samuel snr [aged 61] and Ann [aged 63] were in Kinnersley with daughter Mary [aged 30] and Catherine aged 1 in 1851. She appears to be the daughter of Samuel and Ellen [Maund] while baby Samuel aged 1 month is at home with Samuel and Ellen in Norton Canon
Was just going to flag up this, but from a different angle - on the 1841 census, Samuel Morris (senior) is 49 and Ann is 53, which suggests that it is a different Ann from the one from Kimbolton.
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(And thanks to you too Spidermonkey!)
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1841 Kington, Headbrook HO107/Piece 423/ Folio 47 / Page 28
Samuel Morris 49 Tailor
Ann Morris 53
Samuel Morris 18
Charlotte Morris 15
All born in county
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So that would confirm that it is NOT Ann Derry whom Samuel married, but Ann Cartwright... which would of course be logical since their son was called Samuel Cartwright Morris... Interesting and at the same time rather disrupting - I had made my family tree through the Derries and this sort of makes it all meaningless now...
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Spidermonkey - I found Samuel down as a Carpenter and Ellen as a Carpenter's Wife on the 1881 Cenus, and Richard Thomas the son as a Labourer
I'm probably going blind :D (was watching I'm a Celebrity at the same time, sorry :-[)
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So that would confirm that it is NOT Ann Derry whom Samuel married, but Ann Cartwright... which would of course be logical since their son was called Samuel Cartwright Morris... Interesting and at the same time rather disrupting - I had made my family tree through the Derries and this sort of makes it all meaningless now...
Don't think of it as meaningless. I bet you had fun doing it, and you never know but that your research might help someone else in the future.
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I'm off for the night now, but will have another crack at this tomorrow (unless Puffcat has solved all the puzzles :) )
Night all
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Thanks again to you both. I'm still amazed at all the info you can find. Thanks for sharing it. I suppose now I ought to look for my Cartwright ancestors ;D Any idea, by the way, when Anne died?
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Thanks again to you both. I'm still amazed at all the info you can find. Thanks for sharing it. I suppose now I ought to look for my Cartwright ancestors ;D Any idea, by the way, when Anne died?
Easy answer is between 1851 and 1861 - e.g. we know she was alive on the 1851 census but her husband is a widower on the 1861 census.
Will have a quick look to see if I can see a likely candidate.
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A quick look on freebmd shows 33 deaths for Ann Morris in Herefordshire between 1851 and 1861. I think 5 of them were in the Presteigne registration district (which is the reg district for Kington) and 3 of them were in the Weobley reg dist (the reg dist for Kinnersley).
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What could help in sorting out the 2 Anns is where Ann said she was born in 1851 and 1861 is she and Samuel were still alive.
Ages are notorious for not being accurate.
Spidermonkey - have you got this info ?
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1851 Census Kinnersley
Samuel Morris H 61 Tailor bn All St, Hereford [All Saints, Hereford]
Ann Morris W 63 Charwoman bn Kington, Herefordshire
Mary Morris D 30 Dress maker bn Kington, Herefordshire
Catherine Morris Gdau 1 bn Kinnersley
Which makes it unlikely that Ann would have hot-footed it over to Kimbolton to get christened. Can we find an Ann Cartwright being christened in Kington?
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On the IGI there is an extracted record for a christening for an Anne Cartwright in KIngton, on 29 Mar 1789 to Montelion ( :o) Cartwright and Sarah.
Montelion/Monteleon/Montillion seems to be a recurring name for Cartwrights on the IGI in KIngton
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Other children born to Montelion Cartwright and Sarah (in Kington) are:
RIchard (23 Apr 1779)
Thomas (5 Jun 1782)
Mary (1 Jan 1786)
Anne (29 Mar 1789)
Alexander (20 May 1792)
THomas Phillip (23 Aug 1795)
James (27 Feb 1803)
Montillion (26 May 1805)
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http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukhfhs/mic.html
Above link should take you to Herefordshire Family History Society website with their index of monumental inscriptions. There is a Montillion Cartwright, and further down a Sarah Cartwright.
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Good Heavens Spidermonkey, you're doing me a great service. Yesterday I had no idea about the existence of the Cartwrights, now thank to you I'¡m building a whole new branch of the tree! I've ched the webpage you've mentioned, the dates would imply that Montillion Sr was born around 1736 and died in 1810; his widow Sarah (I expect there's no chance of knowing her maiden name) was born in 1753 and died in 1828. Any info on the other children (whether they married, or when they died?). By the way, do you have any idea about Samuel Morris's parentage?
I am most thankful to you both for all your help.
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You would probably need to find the marriage between Montillion and Sarah to get her surname. It might be worth contacting either Herefordshire Family History Society or Kington HIstory Society to see if anyone else has done any work on this family. Kington History Society may be contacted c/o the Kington Library, 68 Bridge Street, Kington, Herefordshire, HR5 3DJ
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Samuel Morris gives All Saints, and St Peter as his place of birth. Both of these parishes are in the centre of Hereford. I haven't found any online records for those parishes, so it would probably be a trip to the record office (not too far from the above churches). I've got a young baby, so I'm afraid I can't go to the record office for you, but there may be someone around who could do a quick look up for you (if you can't make it yourself).
I'll have a look and see if I can find any more info on siblings etc.
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Hmmm I don't live in England (I'm Spanish, presently working as a teacher in Bulgaria), but perhaps I might find a way to ask the record office to send me some information. Thanks again for trying, I'm researching the FreeBMD info...
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Yes, I can see that a trip to Hereford would be quite difficult ;D I'll have a further look for info for you later on (probably tonight)
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I would gamble on the 1858 death for Ann, and Samuel in 1867 - so where is he in 1861 ?
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With his son (post 4)
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:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Sorry if i came across as terse then, trying to type as few a words as poss, one handed whilst jiggling son around :)
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No it was me not putting brain into gear before typing ::)
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Have found two marriages, both to a Sarah, for Mantilian Cartwright in marriage index
6th June 1772 at Almeley
Mantilian Cartwright = Sarah Watkins
23rd November 1802 at Staunton-on-Wye
Mantilion Cartwright = Sarah Morgan (Groom from Kington)
Susan :)
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Other children born to Montelion Cartwright and Sarah (in Kington) are:
RIchard (23 Apr 1779)
Thomas (5 Jun 1782)
Mary (1 Jan 1786)
Anne (29 Mar 1789)
Alexander (20 May 1792) marriage to Elizabeth Pugh, 1st Jun 1835 Kington. Children Philip William Cartwright ch. 20 Mar 1843 and Henry Alexander Cartwright ch 10 Jul 1836 both Kington
THomas Phillip (23 Aug 1795)
James (27 Feb 1803)
Montillion (26 May 1805)
Notes in purple are supposition, not fact!
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Samuel Morris = Anne Cartwright, Kington, 7th August 1814
The other Samuel Morris, who married Anne Derry in Kimbolt 1813, was from Ludlow.
Regards
Susan :)
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Have found two marriages, both to a Sarah, for Mantilian Cartwright in marriage index
6th June 1772 at Almeley
Mantilian Cartwright = Sarah Watkins
23rd November 1802 at Staunton-on-Wye
Mantilion Cartwright = Sarah Morgan (Groom from Kington)
Susan :)
So... Did Montelion/mantelion marry twice? There does seem to be a slight gap of age between Thomas Cartwright (b.1795) and the next child, James (1803); my guess is that James and Montilion Jr were mothered by Montilioon Sr's second wife, Sarah Morgan, while the first lot were the issue of Sarah Watkins... Is there any way to confirm this? What about Alexander Cartwright's children? I've found on FreeBMD that a Mantilion Cartwright died in 1838; I'm guessing it's Mantilion Jr, as the father would have died in 1810. What do you think?
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The Montillion who died in 1838 was 63 !
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A possible census return for Alexander and his family.
1841 Census Monmouthshire, Old Road, Trevethan
Alexander Cartwright 45 Labourer Not born in county
Elizabeth Cartwright 30 Not born in county
Henry Cartwright 5 Not born in county
Thomas Cartwright 2 Born in county
IGI has an entry for Thomas Patteshall Pugh Cartwright, born to Alexander and Elizabeth Cartwright, christened in Trevethin, Monmouthshire 1 Sept 1839
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1851 Census Monmouthshire
River Row, Trevithin
Alexander Cartwright H 52 Labourer in ironworks bn Herefordshire Kington
Elizabeth Cartwright W 45 bn Breconshire Llanwithals?
Evan Pugh Lodger 75 Labourer in ironworks bn Breconshire Llanwithals.
(surname transcribed on Ancestry as Cortright)
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Perhaps for James (bn 1803)
1851 Census: Chelsea
1 James St
James Cartwright H 48 Letter carrier bn Herefordshire, Kington
Ann Cartwright W 43 bn Berks ?
Ann Cartwright D 8 bn Middlesex Chelsea
James Cartwright S 2 bn Middlesex Chelsea
1861 Census: Chelsea
4 Bucks Place
James Cartwright H 58 Letter carrier bn Herefordshire, Kingston
Ann Cartwright W 53 bn Bucks, Basildon
Annie Cartwright D 18 Student in home............bn Middlesex Chelsea
Can someone have a look over this entry - it looks like it says that Annie was a student in home and colonial something RG9 Piece 34 Folio 116 Page 12
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1871 Census
28 Grape St, Greenwich
James Cartwright H 68 Supervisor of letter carrier (I think) bn Hereford Kington
Ann Cartwright W 63 bn Berks, Basildon
Annie Cartwright D 28 Matron or school mistress? bn Middlesex Chelsea
Emma Bloomfield visitor 29 annuitant bn Middlesex Islington
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Can someone have a look over this entry - it looks like it says that Annie was a student in home and colonial something RG9 Piece 34 Folio 116 Page 12
Could be Tran g Inst (ie Training Institute) :-\
Susan :)
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I've found this page on the Watkins; they came from Staunton-upon-Wye, the same place Montelion Cart. allegedly married his second wife.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watkinsbrown/
By the way, any news on Samuel cartwright Morris's siblings: Mary (b.1820 Kington), Edward Scarlett (b.1821 Eye), Charlotte (1826 Kington) and perhaps Caroline (1816, Grendon Bishop)?
Regarding Samuel C.M.'s daughters (for it seems Richard died single sometime after 1901), here's what I've found which seems plausible:
Catherine (b.1849 Kinnersley), married George Smith in Jun 1874 in Weobley.
Ellen (b.1855 Kinnersley) married William Vickress in Jun 1889 in Kington.
Mary (b. 1867 Kinnersley) married Amos Lane in Dec 1888 in Kington.
I thought that Samuel Morris (their brother) married Elizabeth Alice Vickress, of Deal (Kent), but in one census entry (1881, Almeley, where they lived) it says she's from Staunton-on-Arrow... ???
Any help? :)
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1901 census Elizabeth's place of birth is also given as Staunton-on-Arrow.
RG13/2494 folio 13 page 18.
Perhaps she was working in Kent :-\ Have you found Samuel and Elizabeth's marriage?
Susan :)
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Caroline married Robert Inglis in Eardisley in 1849
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Elizabeth Vickress, aged 4, born Staunton-on-Arrow, Herefordshire, is to be found on the 1851 Wales census, HO107/2492, folio 421 page 13, Staunton-on-Arrow, Radnorshire :-\
She and her brother Milbour?? are visitors with the Tippins family.
Will post details if you don't have access.
Susan :)
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Well I must have seen it on one of the census available... maybe 1871... Otherwise I wouldn't have thought she came from Kent (my family has absolutely no connections there)... I've seen Samuel Morris & Elizabeth Alice Vickress marrying Sep 1876 in Kington. Oddly enough, Samuel's sister Ellen apparently also married a Vickress in Kington in Jun 1889. Perhaps I got the wrong couple... I don't know, I'm a bit lost...
PS: I can't believe the amount of help you're giving me!
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I'd love to see the census where it mentions her and her brother. Any mention of parents, or other siblings? I'm guessing the William Vickress who married Samuel's sister Ellen was Elizabeth brother too...
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Mary and Amos Lane on the 1891 Wales Census
Eglwysilan, Glamorgan
4 Bassett Terr
Amos Lane H Married 24 General Labourer bn Hereford Almeley
Mary Lane W Married 24 bn Hereford Kinnersley
Emily E Lane dau 5mnths bn Glam Eglwysilan
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Mary has been widowed by the 1901 census
Dilwyn, Herefordshire
Headland
Mary Lane H Wid 35 Carrier Carm? bn Kinnersley, Herefordshire
Emily Lane D 10 bn Glamorgan
Thomas Lane S 8 bn Glamorgan
Catherine Lane D 5 bn Herefordshire Ocle Pychard
Sarah Pearce visitor WId bn Wormsley, Herefordshire
William Pearce son 24 Farm Labourer bn Salop Richards Castle
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1851 Wales census HO107/2492/421/13
Old Publick?, Stanton-upon-Arrow, Radnorshire
John Tippins Head M 65/8? Farm Labourer Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Susan Tippins Wife M 66 - Hereford, Pembridge
John Tippins Son UM 30 Farm Labourer Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Jonathan Tippins Son UM 35 Farm Labourer Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Susan Tippins Dau UM 18 - Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Elizabeth Vickress Visitor - 4 - Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Milbrow Vickress Visitor - 2 - Hereford, Stanton on Arrow
Joshua Ti????? Visitor 11 - Hereford, Leominster
John Hill Lodger Widower 40 Farm Labourer Hereford, Orleton
John Hill Lodger UM 13 Farm Labourer Hereford, Orleton
Mary Hill Visitor - 11 - Hereford, Orleton
Susan :)
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Gosh, Milbrow and Montillion ;D we're starting a nice collection of names!!
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I know, very weird names.
I was searching yesterday on the BMD search machine for the Vickresses, to see if there were any hints. Here's what I found:
*Frederick Vickress, died Jun 1891, Kington (I think 74 y.o).
*Daisy Elizabeth Vickress, born Sep 1904, Kington.
*Elizabeth Vickress married on Sep 1876, Kington (I didn't double-check it but I think it's the same one who married Samuel Morris).
*William Vickress, married Jun 1889 in Kington (ditto, but I think he's the one who married Ellen Morris, Samuel's younger sister; i.e. a brother and a sister from the Morris family married a sister and a brother of the Vickress family.
*William Vickress, born Sep 1845 Leominster. Could this be the same William as above, Elizabeth's brother, who married Ellen Morris in 1889?
*William Vickress, born Mar 1859 Presteigne (seems unlikely to be connected).
*Milbrow Vickress, married Mar 1887 in Weobley. Is this the Millborough who was with Elizabeth in Radnorshire in 1851?
*William Frederick Vickress, born Jun 1898 in Weobley. Milbrow's or William's son perhaps?
*Eleanor Susan Vickress, born Sep 1895 in Weobley. Ditto.
*Ann Drusilla Vickress, born Dec 1893 in Weobley. Ditto.
*John Vickress, born Jun 1890 in weobley, ditto.
*Milbrow Vickress, born Mar 1892 in Weobley. ditto.
DEATHS:
*Ellen Vickress (I suspect née Morris), died Jun 1924 in Leominster, 68 y.o. My Ellen Morris who married William Vickress was christened in October 1855, so it would fit the age.
*Millbrow Vickress, died Mar 1894, 74.y.o., in leominster. I'm suspecting the father of the three Vickress siblings.
My theory is that Millbrow Vickress and wife (name unknown for now) had at least three children:
-Elizabeth, born about 1846, married Samuel Morris in 1876. Four children.
-Millbrow/Milborough, birth date unknown, married in 1887 in Weobley (wife's name unknown), possible father of the five children born in Weobley between 1890 and 1898.
-William, born 1845, married Ellen Morris (who died in 1924), also possible parents of the five children.
I know there were Vickress cousins because one of them wanted to marry my gran's cousin Joan Morris, and she declined because at the time she was training to be a nurse, or some such story.
Can anyone confirm any of the above? :)
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OK, now THIS is weird. Is Milbrow the name of a WOMAN?
This is what I found:
Marriages Mar 1887
Hollings John Weobly 6a 721
VICKRESS Milbrow Weobly 6a 721
If so then the children on the previous post are issue of >William Vickress and Ellen Morris...
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I think it is more likely that there was a problem transcribing the marriages, because I think that Milborough is a man.
Looking on the monumental inscriptions website that I gave you on page 2 of this thread, I think that William and Ellen Vickress (nee Morris) are buried at Hope under Dinmore. Looks like William died in 1936 aged 78.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukhfhs/miuv.html
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I stand corrected! Milboro' might well be a girls name! Look who I have just found on the 1901 census
1901 Herefordshire
Hope Coaling Hill, Hope under Dinmore
William Vickeress H Married 40 Carpenter bn Lyonshall, Heref
Ellen Vickeress W Married 45 bn Kinnersley
John VIckeress S 11 school boy bn Eardisland, Heref
Milboro' Vickeress D 9 school girl bn Eardisland
Ann Vickeress D 7 school girl bn Eardisland
Eleanor Vickeress D 5 school girl bn Eardisland
Frederick Vickeress S 3 bn Eardisland
Thomas R Vickeress S 2mnths bn Hope (presumably Hope under Dinmore), Heref
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1891 Census Herefordshire
Pembridge
JOhn Hollings H Mar 35 Agricultural LAbourer bn Lyonshall, Heref
Milbrow Hollings W Mar 41 bn Staunton on Arrow, Heref
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1861 Census Herefordshire
Upper Rise? Lyonshall
Frederick Vickress H M 45 Carpenter bn Heref. Hope under Dinmore
Ann Vickress W M 39 bn Heref. Pembridge
Elizabeth D 14 bn Heref. Pembridge
Milbrow D 12 bn Heref Pembridge
Diana D 9 bn Heref Lyonshall
William S 2 bn Heref Lyonshall
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Ok, on the 1871 census there are 2 Milbro's!!!
One is Milbro Vicarage aged 22, a nursemaid born in Stanton Herefordshire, living at Upper House, Lyonshall.
The other is Milbrough Vickress aged 18, unmarried sister in law born in Hope Under Dinmore living with Mary Vickress aged 60, widow born Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire. They are living in Marden, Herefordshire
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*Frederick Vickress, died Jun 1891, Kington (I think 74 y.o). Father of Elizabeth, Milbrow, Diana and William
*Daisy Elizabeth Vickress, born Sep 1904, Kington.
*Elizabeth Vickress married on Sep 1876, Kington (I didn't double-check it but I think it's the same one who married Samuel Morris). presumably daughter of Frederick
*William Vickress, married Jun 1889 in Kington (ditto, but I think he's the one who married Ellen Morris, Samuel's younger sister; i.e. a brother and a sister from the Morris family married a sister and a brother of the Vickress family. again, presumably son of Frederick
*William Vickress, born Sep 1845 Leominster. Could this be the same William as above, Elizabeth's brother, who married Ellen Morris in 1889?
*William Vickress, born Mar 1859 Presteigne (seems unlikely to be connected).
*Milbrow Vickress, married Mar 1887 in Weobley. Is this the Millborough who was with Elizabeth in Radnorshire in 1851?
*William Frederick Vickress, born Jun 1898 in Weobley. Milbrow's or William's son perhaps? Children of William and Ellen
*Eleanor Susan Vickress, born Sep 1895 in Weobley. Ditto.
*Ann Drusilla Vickress, born Dec 1893 in Weobley. Ditto.
*John Vickress, born Jun 1890 in weobley, ditto.
*Milbrow Vickress, born Mar 1892 in Weobley. ditto.
Can anyone confirm any of the above? :)
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Could Elizabeth and Milbro have been enumerated twice?
On 1851 census for Lyonshall:
Frederick Vickress H Mar 36 Carpenter and joiner bn Hope, Heref
Ann Vickress W Mar 29 bn Stanton Arrow, Heref
Elizabeth Vickress D 4 bn Stanton Arrow , Heref
Milbrough Vickress D 2 bn Stanton Arrow, Heref
IGI christenings to Frederick and Ann (all Lyonshall unless otherwise stated)
Diana 27 jul 1851
Jane 15 oct 1854
Marianne 9 mar 1856
William 27 Jan 1859
William Thomas 7 jun 1857
Thomas Frederick 28 jul 1862
James 12 feb 1865
Milbrow 18 mar 1849 Staunton on Arrow
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1841 census Hope under Dinmore
Wm Vickress 50 Carpenter
Elizth Vickress 50
Wm Vickress 25 Carpenter
Frederick Vickress 23 Carpenter
Milbro Vickress 20
Jane Vickress 15
Henry Vickress 12
Thomas Vickress 10
Alfred Vickress 6
All born in county
IGI
William Vickress mar Elizabeth Gatehouse 26 aug 1811 Hope under Dinmore
Christenings to children of William and Elizabeth
1. ELIZABETH VICKRESS - 28 APR 1816 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
2. MILBOROUGH VICKRESS - 09 APR 1820 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
3. MARY ANN VICKRESS - 02 FEB 1813 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
4. ALFRED VICKRESS - 13 APR 1834 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
5. LUKE THOMAS VICKRESS -12 JUN 1831 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
6. WILLIAM VICKRESS - 27 OCT 1811 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
7. CAROLINE VICKRESS - 18 OCT 1821 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
8. DIANA VICKRESS - 10 OCT 1830 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
9. JANE VICKRESS - 23 JAN 1825 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
10. DRUCILLA VICKRESS - 09 NOV 1817 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
11. HENRY EDWARD VICKRESS -10 OCT 1830 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
12. FREDERICK VICKRESS - 14 AUG 1814 Hope Under Dinmore, Hereford, England
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Hi folks, yes Milbrow is a female.
How embarrrassing, I misread the 1851 Wales census details :-[
Susan :)
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Blimey S.! I can't believe all the info you're digging up! Thanks so very much!!!
:D
My Internet connection's gone up the creek (it's what you get for living in Eastern Europe); I'm copying all your new posts onto my PC to check them at home; I'll be on and off for a few days till we re-establish our e-service. I'll let you know what I've come up with. Thanks you!!!
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I know we're going off on a tangent here, but I like researching the surname Vickress (makes a change from the Davies and Lloyds that I'm trying to sort out ;))
Alfred Vickress (brother of Frederick) married Hannah ? by 1881 and had two children - William Alfred Orchard Vickress and Sarah Mary Jane Vickress. Alfred died Sept qtr 1900 (Hereford 6a 281)
William Alfred Orchard VIckress was born Jun qtr 1877 (Hereford 6a 503) and married Alice Maria Taylor in the Dec qtr of 1903 (Hereford 6a 1086). They had at least two children Violet Mary Alice VIckress (christened 17 Apr 1904 in Marden) and Rose Jane Vickress (christened 27 Apr 1906 in Marden).
Sarah Mary Jane Vickress married Arthur John Walwyn on the 15 Jan 1917 in MArden. The bride was 36 and the groom was 49. The groom gave his father's name as John Ridgley.
1861 Census Hope Village, Herefordshire
Elizabeth Vickress H Wid 76 Householder bn Heref Leominster (I think, something has been scribbled out and then Leominster written on top)
Drucilla VIckress D unm 40 at home bn Heref, Hope
Jane Vickress D unm 29 at home bn Heref, Hope
Alfred Vickress S unm 25 carpenter bn Heref, Hope
Thomas T W B Wade Boarder 12 bn London Maymore PLace?
William Jones lodger 40 Gamekeeper bn Heref, Shobdon
1881 census Lilmarsh, Marden, Herefordshire
Alfred VIckress H M 46 Carpenter bn Heref Hope
Hannah Vickress W M 46 bn Worcestershire Tenbury
William A VIckress S 4 bn Heref Marden
Sarah M J Vickress D 1 bn Heref Marden
1891 census Lilmarsh, Marden, Herefordshire
Alfred VIckress H M 55 Carpenter bn Heref. Hope
Hannah Vickress W M 58 bn Worcs Tenbury
William Vickress S 14 Scholar bn Heref Marden
Sarah M J Vickress D 11 SCholar bn Heref Marden
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Hi Spidermonkey
Vickress is a lovely name to research (my Davies' and Jones' are on the back burrner :-\)
Free BMD has a marriage for Alfred Vickress March qtr. 1877 Dudley - one of the female names is Hannah Orchard :)
Susan
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Every family should have a Vickress!
Luke Thomas Vickress dies Sept qtr 1857 (Leominster 6a 293)
Drusilla Vickress died Mar qtr 1901 (Leominster 6a 391) aged 83
Millbrow Vickress died Mar qtr 1894 (Leominster 6a 403) aged 74
Diana Vickress died Jun qtr 1851 (Leominster 26 162)
Caroline Vickress died Dec qtr 1849 (leominster 26 154)
1881 Census
Cadbory? Hall, Hope, Herefordshire
Drusilla Vickress H unm 62 bn Hope under Dinmore, Heref
Milbro Vickress sister unm 60 Dressmaker bn Hope under DInmore, Heref
1891 Census
Hope, Herefordshire
(enumerated next to the vicarage)
Milbrough Vickress H unm 70 dressmaker bn Hope under Dinmore
Drusilla VIckress sister unm 71 dressmaker bn Hope under Dinmore
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OK, now THIS is weird. Is Milbrow the name of a WOMAN?
This is what I found:
Marriages Mar 1887
Hollings John Weobly 6a 721
VICKRESS Milbrow Weobly 6a 721
If so then the children on the previous post are issue of >William Vickress and Ellen Morris...
According to a transcription on Ancestry, the witnesses were Ellen Morris and William Vickress
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I can't believe all this! Next time I'm in the UK I'm taking you both for dinner ;)
I'm (again) without Internet at home; I'm copying everything onto a Word document to double check it at home; hopefully this weekend or on Monday we'll have the connection re-established. I wonder how many cousins are left in Kington and around that area... I mean Vickress is not that common, it's possible someone around might now about their Vickress ancestors... I have to call my gran's aunt to ask her about the Vickresses.
I know this is abusing of your good will but does anyone know anything, or can you find anything at all about Ellen Morris (née Mound)'s family? She came from Wormsley, married in Weobley, but that's as far as I've got, no idea about her parents et al.
Please keep the info coming up, I'm going to upload my tree online, then you shall see how much you have helped me! :D
Dan
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By the way, is it possible to know the name of Frederick's wife, Ann?
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Next time you are in the UK, you'll have to come to HErefordshire to see all these places where your ancestors lived!
According to the 2008/2009 Hereford phone book, there are 5 listings for Vickress families so it is a good chance that these are related to the VIckress' that we have been looking at.
Will have a look for Ellen's family, and for Ann's maiden name.
Perhaps over the weekend you could look over the info, and see what info you still need us to come up with, that way you get things that are directly relevant to your family (rather than me going off on a tangent!)
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woo hoo! Looks like Fredrick's wife's maiden name was Tippins. Which is the name of the family who Elizabeth and Milbrow were visiting in 1851 - their grandparents perhaps?
Marriage ref: Frederick Vickress and Ann Tippins Sept qtr 1846 Presteigne 26 379
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Excellent. Well perhaps Ann Tippins is the daughter of John and Susan Yippins, and the sister of John Jr, Jonathan and Susan Jr. Any idea about that?
On the other hand, I'd like you to confirm, if you can, whether Caroline Morris (chr. 7 Jan 1816 in Grendon Bishop) was also Samuel and Ann Cartwright's daughter.
Jumping onto the next generation, any idea if Catherine Morris (b.1849) had children, or when she died? I think she married George Smith in Jun qrtr 1874 in Weobley.
And any idea of what happened to William and Ellen Vickress's children, John, Milbrow, Ann drusilla etc?
What about William Vickress (father of Frederick and the other 11 kids)? Any idea about his family, origins...? And the Gatehouses, where did they come from? I must visit Hope under Dinmore!
Thanks :)
PS: Spidermonkey, do NOT worry about going off on a tangent, I find all the info you're giving me VERY useful and I'm so grateful!
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Possible deaths for:
Deaths Jun 1851
Vickress Diana Leominster 26 162 = Frederick's daughter?
Deaths Sep 1857
Vickress William Thomas Presteigne 11b 99 = Frederick's son? It would explain the next child was also called William...
Deaths Mar 1865
VICKRESS James Presteigne 11b 127 = Frederick's youngest child?
Deaths Dec 1915
Vickress Hannah 82 Hereford 6a 656 = Alfred's widow?
What about these marriages?
Marriages Jun 1916
Vickress Millbrough Jenks Leominster 6a 1193
Marriages Dec 1921
Vickress Ann D Green Leominster 6a 1264
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Could this be Jane Vickress, daughter of William and Elizabeth?
Deaths Sep 1855
Vickress Jane Presteigne 11b 102
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1841 census: Stanton on Arrow
Quarry field??
Thos Tippins 50
Elizth Tippins 55
Richard Tippins 18
Ann Tippins 15
All born in county
Could this be your Ann? Perhaps not the daughter of John and Susan, but the niece?
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RE: Catherine Morris
1881 Census
Kingswood, Kington
George Smith H Mar 35 General Lab bn AScot, Oxfordshire
Kate Smith W Mar 29 bn Heref, kington
Elizabeth A Smith D 7 bn Heref, Kington
Frederick Smith S 5 bn Heref, Kington
Arthur G SMith S 2 bn Heref, Kington
John Herbert Smith S 9mnths bn Heref, Kington
Hannah Morris mother in law Wid 62 bn Heref, KIngton
I think this means it is back to the drawing board with your Catherine marrying George, unless her mother changed her name, and was in two places on census night
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I stand corrected! Milboro' might well be a girls name! Look who I have just found on the 1901 census
1901 Herefordshire
Hope Coaling Hill, Hope under Dinmore
William Vickeress H Married 40 Carpenter bn Lyonshall, Heref
Ellen Vickeress W Married 45 bn Kinnersley
John VIckeress S 11 school boy bn Eardisland, Heref
Milboro' Vickeress D 9 school girl bn Eardisland
Ann Vickeress D 7 school girl bn Eardisland
Eleanor Vickeress D 5 school girl bn Eardisland
Frederick Vickeress S 3 bn Eardisland
Thomas R Vickeress S 2mnths bn Hope (presumably Hope under Dinmore), Heref
Just bringing this forward so I can see whom I am researching.
Dan, you probably know that the 1901 census is the last census to have been released, so you will have to wait until 2011 to get confirmation about where the children are, but we can see if there are any possible events.
John Vickress m Ellen Rawlings Mar qtr 1912, Leominster 6a 761.
Children: 6 children born between 1912 and 1929, details not posted because of possibility of some being alilve now. Will PM Cimbrio the details.
Millbrough Vickress m Austin T Jenks Jun qtr 1916 Leominster 6a 1193
Children: on Freebmd, 2 children transcribed to Jenks and Vickress between 1917 and 1928
Ann D Vickress m John F Green Dec qtr 1921 Leominster 6a 1264
Children: 4 children transcribed to Green and Vickress between 1922 and 1930
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I didn't know that we'd had to wait till 2011... But still, the info you've given me is tremendously useful. I'll have to search the phonebooks to see if any of the younger Vickresses are still alive in the area... Maybe contacting Hope under Dinmore will be the first step.
Thank you for the information you sent me on the PMs.
As for Catherine Morris marrying George Smith, I agree it seems rather unlikely that it's MY Catherine Morris... I must bug my gran's cousin Joan to see what she can come up with.
By the way, I was looking on the IGI thingie and apart from finding the facts you've already forwarded me, I found an entry for a baptism for a William Vickress around 1790:
William Vickress
12 Apr 1787 Hope under Dinmore
son of William and Mary Vickress
Is there any way of corroborating this? By the way, Gatehouse seems to be a rather odd surname, any idea where they came from? And still abusing of your good help, any news on the Mounds or Tippins? I've found nothing online for the moment but I'm still searching.
Thanks!
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Without looking at the parish records, we will just have to assume that you have found your William Vickress, son of William and Mary. Incidently, did you also see the marriage between WIlliam Vickress and Mary WIlliams (12 Jul 1784) in Wellington, Hereford (about 2 miles down the road from Hope under Dinmore). There is also a William Vickress bn 1759 in Wellington.
Also according to the IGI, an Anne Tippins was christened 12 Mar 1823, Staunton on Arrow to John and Susan. I don't know whether this is the right Ann, because if you remember on the 1841 census, Ann was with Thomas and Elizabeth. However the 1841 census does not give family relationships so at this moment we cant say for certain who Ann belongs to!
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I was wondering if any keen eyes could work out two places of birth on the 1861 census. I'm trying to find Elizabeth Vickress (nee Gatehouse) place of birth which has been crossed out and Leominster scrawled over the top. You then have 3 "Hope" births, and then a London birth (a 12 year old boarder in the house). Can you read the London place of birth? something place?
RG9; Piece: 1832; Folio: 92; Page: 3;
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The Hereford one could be Hyde Marsh :-\
London Maymore Place ?
Susan :)
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Sorry to have been a bit off the thread for a few days; we've discovered a few more ancestors via the Italian side, and it's all a bit stressful here (pre-Xmas).
Doesn't it look like it says Maynmore square or something like that?
Is there any way, by the way, of knowing the date of death of Elizabeth Morris, née Vickress? I don't know if my grandmother (b. 1917) ever met her; she certainly never met her grandfather Samuel, who appears already deceased in his daughter Elizabeth's marriage certificate.
Any luck with the Tippins? And the Mounds? I'll start my search now again. Sorry to have been offline, thanks for helping :)
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One of the entries says Hampton something... Hampton Court which is "The principal residence is Hampton Court, built under the auspices of Henry IV., by Sir Rowland Lenthall, who distinguished himself at Agincourt"...
"HAMPTON COURT, an extra parochial liberty, locally in the parish of Hope-under-Dinmore, hundred of Wolphy, county Hereford, 5 miles S.S.E. of Leominster. It is situated on the eastern bank of the river Lugg, and is the site of the fine old seat of the earls of Essex"...
Who is who on that list anyway Spidermonkey? I mean which one corresponds with who?
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1861 Census Hope Village, Herefordshire
Elizabeth Vickress H Wid 76 Householder bn Heref Leominster (I think, something has been scribbled out and then Leominster written on top)
Drucilla VIckress D unm 40 at home bn Heref, Hope
Jane Vickress D unm 29 at home bn Heref, Hope
Alfred Vickress S unm 25 carpenter bn Heref, Hope
Thomas T W B Wade Boarder 12 bn London Maymore PLace?
William Jones lodger 40 Gamekeeper bn Heref, Shobdon
The entry for Elizabeth Vickress is the one which looks like it originally said Lyde Marsh, but was scribbled out and Leominster scrawled over the top, and Thomas Wade is the London entry.
The Hampton Hill entry is not our family I'm afraid, I just included some entries to the top and bottom of our family to get some handwriting comparison.
I think the London entry might say Maismore - I think it looks like a y, but that it is actually the loop of the word below it.
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Is there any way, by the way, of knowing the date of death of Elizabeth Morris, née Vickress? I don't know if my grandmother (b. 1917) ever met her; she certainly never met her grandfather Samuel, who appears already deceased in his daughter Elizabeth's marriage certificate.
Looking at freebmd, there are two possible deaths for Elizabeth:
Sep 1907 Morris Elizabeth aged 62 Hereford 6a 246
Jun 1930 Morris Elizabeth aged 84 Kington 6a 557
Obviously, if it were the latter, then your grandmother could easily have known her.
I don't know whether you have Samuel and Elizabeth on the 1901 census - they are living in Leominster with two sons and their adopted daughter Ivy/Joy Thornton
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Hello all, and happy new year!
:P
I've just been on the phone with my gran's cousin, and she says she met "Grannie Morris" (i.e. Elizabeth Vickress) as a young child, so it must be the one who died in 1930.
On the other hand, when this cousin was a nurse during WWII she nursed a distant cousin who lost part of his left leg. He fell in love with her and wanted to marry her, but she refused. His name is William Vickress, so it must be William TJ Vickress, born 1912 (she was born in 1923).
She's also mentioned that her father, William Samuel Morris, married twice. The second was to Flossie Hopkins, of Neath, but she has no idea about the first wife; she probably died in child birth since there was also a child (a boy, she thinks) who also died. Any idea about this?
William Samuel Morris died in the 1970's and his wife 2 or 3 years after, but our cousin can't remember that either. Can anyone help?
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Hi Dan, Happy new year to you too.
I'm off out for the day shortly, but I will have another read through tonight and see if we can sort out any of the new puzzles!
Best wishes,
Spider
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Happy New Year Spider and Dan.
I had a very quick look yesterday, read back through the thread, but haven't come up with anything as yet.
Susan :)
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A William F Morris (transcription error?) married Eiddwen Hopkins in Sept qtr 1930 Neath 11a 2097
Hi Susan, happy new year!
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Nope, I found William married Flossie T Hopkins Jun 1922 in Neath, Wales. Their daughter Joan is my gran's cousin I rang yesterday. However, she insists her father's name was William Samuel; I've foudn William Edward. William Samuel was her only brother, born Sep 1925 in Colwall (he was killed in the war off the coast of Ireland).
I don't know who was his first wife; his brother Samuel Charles also married twice; the second wife was called Kate, though everyone called her "Auntie Arkie". I think the first wife may have been Alice Tipton...
I wish I could just go to an archive and search for all this myself, I mistrust all these search machines online, you never know if they've been properly transcribed.
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Well done for finding the marriage. Did you notice Flossie's birth ref suggests her middle name is Theodore.
My brain is a bit confuddled as to where William Samuel Morris fits into everything - do we have his parents? Was he born in 1894?
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I understand how you can be a bit muddled. Here's how it goes:
Elizabeth Vickress (1846-1930), married 1876 Samuel Morris (1851-1909). Had four children + one adopted daughter. Children were:
Ellen "Nell" Morris, b. 1878 Almeley, married 1906 in ledbury, Walter "Freddie" Watts, who seems to have been a preacher. No children.
Elizabeth "Bessie" Morris (1879 Pembridge - 1963 Colwall), married 1910 Colwall, William John Allen (1876-1960). Three children, including my gran.
Samuel Edward Morris (b. 1881), married 1st (possibly) Alice Tipton; one son, called Lesley; married secondly in 1926 Kate. She was a widow; no idea if they had children together. Lesley is already dead.
William Samuel/William Charles (b.1883), married 1st unknown; one son, which died young or at birth, same as the mother; married 2nd Flossie Theodora Hopkins, of Neath. Two children: Joan Theodora and William Samuel (who died in the war).
Ivy Thornton (no relation proven so far); born 1892 in Worthing; married 1917 in Ludlow, Lancelot Nach; two sons: William L. (1920-1983), buried in Windsor Castle; and Leslie (b. 1924).
I'd love to learn more about Samuel and William, their wives and children...
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1881 Brook House, Almeley
Samuel Morris H Mar 32 Carpenter bn Heref Norton Cannon
Elizabeth Morris W Mar 34 Carpenters wife bn Heref Staunton on Arrow
Ellen Morris Dau 2 bn Heref Almeley
Elizabeth Morris Dau 1 bn Heref Almeley
RG11/2599/34/7
1891 Norton Road, Pembridge
Samuel Morris H Mar 41 Carpenter and wheelwright bn Heref Norton Canon
Elizabeth Morris W Mar 43 bn Heref Staunton on Arrow
Ellen Morris dau 12 Scholar bn Almeley
Elizabeth Morris dau 11 Scholar bn Almeley
Samuel Morris son 9 Scholar bn Almeley
William Morris son 8 scholar bn Almeley
Albert Williams visitor 4 scholar bn Weobley
RG12/2077/92/10
1901 "Hagley Castle" Cottage, Bodenham
Samuel Morris H Mar 51 Journeyman carpenter bn Kinnersley
Elizabeth Morris W MAr 54 bn Staunton on Arrow
Samuel Morris son Unm 19 Journeyman Mason bn Almeley
William MOrris son Unm 18 ??? cowman on farm bn ALmeley
Ivy Thornton adopted dau 9 bn Sussex Worthing
RG13/2494/13/18
Dec qtr 1926 Samuel Morris m Kate A Arkinstall (Leominster 6a 1100)
Mar qtr 1912 Kate A Bird m William H Arkinstall (Corwen 11b 393) (Kate's first marriage?)
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I'm not wholly convinced by the Samuel Morris m Alice Tipton - Samuel's middle name is given as Charles, whereas you seem to have it as Edward.
Perhaps just a wierd coincidence, but there is a Samuel Morris m Elizabeth BIRD!!! at Leominster 6a 1178 (Dec qtr 1913)
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Hmmmm. Leslie S J Morris (mother's maiden name Bird) was born Mar qtr 1917 Leominster 6a 771
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As always, Spider, you've been absolutely wonderful. I'm just going to put all the info in the tree. Don't take my word about Samuel being called Charles or Edward, to be honest I don't know for certain and the only person who might know, our cousin Joan, can't remember anyway. I guess we will have to ask for the birth certificates, eventually, but I understand they're expensive, are they not? here in Spain any certificate is free, it's the church certificates that cost about 6 pounds..
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There's also a Philip H. Morris (mother's name Bird) born Leominster Sep 1921... Will have to tackle cousin Joan about him...
Does seem like Samuel married Elizabeth Bird and after he was widowed he married Kate Bird... Perhaps she was his sister-in-law? I'll check the census see if I can find something :)
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I think you are getting to the stage where you'll need to get certificates to prove all our theories. Birth, marriage and death certificates cost £7, and you can order from here https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Will have another rummage later on - got to take my car in for an MOT (just what I need straight after Christmas!)
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Going back to try and fill in some gaps. Your Catherine Morris (bn 1849, Kinnersley) may have married Henry Hodges (Jun 1872 Newent 6a 449)
1891 census
Court Farm, Woolhope
Henry Hodges H Mar 53 Ag Lab bn Woolhope, Heref
Catherine Hodges W Mar 49 bn Kinnersley, Heref
Ernest H Hodges Son 16 Garden Labourer bn Linton Heref
Beatrice Hodges dau 14 bn Linton
Edith M Hodges dau 10? bn Linton
Ethel M Hodges dau 1? (the enumerators mark completely obliterates it!) bn Woolhope, Heref
RG12; Piece: 2053; Folio 92; Page 3
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Good find Spidermonkey
Catherine Morris and Henry Hodges were married 17th June 1872 at Linton.
Further details and baptism of children at Linton, from http://www.forest-of-dean.net/
Susan :)
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On the 1881 census, Catherine and Henry Hodges are in LInton at the Alma Inn, which makes me wonder whether Catherine Davies on the 1871 at the Alma Inn is really Catherine MOrris, but given the surname of her Aunt and Uncle with whom she is residing.
1871 census, Alma Inn, Linton, Herefordshire
John Davis H Mar 59 Inn Keeper bn Kinnersley, Herefordshire
Catherine Davis W Mar 61 bn Canon Pyon, Herefordshire
Catherine Davis niece 21 bn Kinnersley, Herefordshire
RG10; Piece: 2606; Folio: 39; Page: 9
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Hi Susan,
Think I have to log onto the site to check, but if you are able to could you check the birth record for Ethel M Hodges bn apparently in 1890 - is she an after thought of Henry and Catherine, or are they bringing up a grandaughter as a daughter?
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Edith Mary is the last of Henry and Catherine Hodges children baptised at Linton. Woolhope, where Ethel was born, isn't covered.
Perhaps she was late baby, it wasn't unknown for women to still be having babies in their early fifties ::)
Susan :)
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Wow girls! You've carried on the work and I haven't even come on here to see it. For some reason I've stopped getting messages telling me there's new posts here. No news by the way regarding the Morris family, aside from the Vickress guy my nan's cousin almost married.
I've checked on Genoom and Geneanet for Morris info but nothing so far, it's too vast... I wish I could just go to the UK and search for the information myself at the church registry.
Thanks again =)
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Hi all,
Cimbrio sent me a message with some additional info, which he said I could post here:
It's been a long time I know since we spoke about the Morris/Cartwright/Vickress lot, but I recently got hold of a webpage which has helped fill in some holes. First of all I found that Montellion Cartwright and his wife Sarah Watkins had two children more, and the total children would be (all Cartwrights, with their christening dates; some I had listed as being from Kington, but I actually think they're from Almeley):
Dorothy, 6.feb.1774
Montilion, 5.1.1776
Richard, 23.4.1779
Thomas, 5.6.1782
Mary, 1.1.1786
Anne, 29.3.1789, married Samuel Morris.
Alexander, 20.5.1792, married Elizabeth Pugh, two children at least: Henry Alexander (b. 1836), Philip William (b.1843).
Thomas Philip, 23.8.1795.
Remember we found a "second" marriage for Montilion and another Sarah in 1802? Well I think it's the younger Montilion (i.e. the one born in 1776) who married Sarah Morgan, and THEY were the parents of James Cartwright (1803) and Montilion Cartwright (1805). Of course I haven't found anything to prove all this but it seems more plausible.
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Hello girls (and everyone else), I hope we can get back to discussing this a bit, since I owe it to you both everything I have found out.
I recently discovered on this webpage http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=allCollections;r=1 that Anne Cartwright was the daughter of Montillion Cartwright and Sarah Watkins (which we already knew); Sarah Watkins was christened on 10.Dec.1752 in Almeley; her parents were a Philip Watkins/Watkyns and Dorothy Tringam, who had married on 14.Oct.1749 in Almeley. Sarah had at leats two other brothers, Philip (chr. 13.8.1755), and Thomas Watkins (chr. 4.Feb.1758). I don't know anything else about them.
Now what I found about the Tringams is rather interesting. Dorothy Tringam was christened on 28.1.1727 in Almeley and her parents were John Tringam and wife Dorothy. As far as I've seen, they had 4 other children: Thomas (chr. 2.3.1717 Almeley), John (12.2.1719), Elizabeth (19.4.1723), and Francis (9.3.1725). I know nothing about them.
I've seen that the surname Tringam can also be spelt Tringham and Stringham, and that the Tringam family came from France around 1572, escaping French Catholic repression, since the Tringams were Calvinist Protestants (Huguenots). A branch emigrated to New England.
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There are 3 Montillions on the National Burial Index, all at St Marys, Kington
One was buried in 1813, no age given (but assume that it was Montillion senior?)
One was buried 11 Aug 1835, aged 5 days
The third was buried 9 Mar 1838 aged 61 (so would be Montillion bn c. 1777)
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Dorothy Cartwright mar John Evans 2 Dec 1799, Kington
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Wow Spider, once again :o
I've already included Dorothy's marruage; I suppose the Montilion who died in 1813 is the patriarch of the family, and the third one is his son born in 1776, but the second one is a bit of a puzzle, as I have no Montilions born in 1838 or any date near that, just 1805. Did your source mention any parents?
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Unfortunately the NBI just indexes the burial registers, and doesn't note family relationships. :(
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I've been looking at your Tippins, because we don't really seem to have got back very far with them.
For the moment, I am going to assume that Anne Tippins belongs to John and Susan, but to confirm this you will need to get her marriage cert.
.......raincheck...... son has just woken up, will post later
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Thanks Spider. I've also had a few problems with them, I haven't found them anywhere which is a bit odd, and I'm never sure where Anne was from, and I get places mixed, I don't know if Kington includes Colwall, if Pembridge is here or there... Blah, hopefully next September I'll go to England, see if I can dig anything out.
Will keep an eye open for your post =)
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Pembridge is near Kington, Colwall is the otehr side pf the COunty.
Tippins is a Kington area name and I think someone else on here was researching it.
Kignton History Society may be able to help with you Montillions
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I've searched on the Free BM&D page for the death (since the birth wouldn't be recorded) of Ann Vickress (without typing in the District or County). I've found a Ann Vickress who died in Jun 1916 in Kingston (sic). However when I clicked on Kingston it said
The district Kingston spans the boundaries of the counties of Middlesex and Surrey; information about it can be found here.
However...
The page number is not within the range expected for the district. Note that there a number of possible reasons for this, including an error in the district, the page, the volume, the date or the type of entry. Further information may also be available here.
Her age at death is 93, which would mean she was born in 1823, which might perfectly be the Ann Vickress née Tippins we're searching for (who married in 1846). I guess I shall have to ask for that marriage certificate. Can I order it via the Free BM&D page?
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If I were you, I would check on the 1911 census www.1911census.co.uk for Ann Vickress. It is free to search, but you have to pay to look at the image of the census return (but it is still cheaper than buying a certificate)
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Incidently if it is the right Ann Vickress (nee Tippins), you might be pleased to know that Susan (her mum we think) died in 1884 aged 101 (Jun qtr Kington 6a 335)
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WOW! That WOULD be nice to find out. I'll ask my dad to ask for the marriage certificate. Can that be done on the Kington Historical office (or similar name) you mentioned in other posts Puffcat?
Thanks :)
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The 1911 census DOES give us a Ann Vickress, born 1823, in Kington, Herefordshire, as being 88 years old. I think the one who died in Jun 1916 is her, only they got the Kington-Kingston mixed up.
THANKS!!!
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John (bn c. 1781) and Susan (bn c. 1783) Tippins had 6 (possibly 7 children):
John ch 15 Jun 1817 mar Mary (bn c. 1823, Kington) and had at least 8 children: Richard bn 1852 Presteigne, Sarah bn 1855 Presteigne, Susan bn 1857, William bn 1858, Samuel bn 1861, John bn 1865, Arthur bn 1867, James bn 1872
Samuel ch 16 Apr 1820
Anne ch 12 Mar 1823 became a Vickress
Jonathan ch 21 May 1826 mar Hannah (bn c. 1830) and had at least 8 children: Albert bn 1849, Mary Ann bn 1859, Jonathan bn 1861, John bn 1863, Susan bn 1865, Ellen bn 1867, Samuel bn 1868, William bn 1871
William ch 2 Nov 1828 mar Ann (bn c. 1835. Possible marriage between a William Tippins and Ann Watkins, Jun qtr 1860 Presteigne 11b 303) Had at least 3 children Jane bn 1872, Elizabeth bn 1874, Mary bn 1879
Susan ch 14 Apr 1833
(All ch at Staunton on Arrow)
Possible: Martha ch 23 Oct 1814 (Almeley)
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Found this in the marriage index - is this John and Susan Tippins?
John Tippins = Susannah Evans 24th March 1809 Lyonshall
then this baptism in BIVRI ::)
Jonathan Tippins 21st May 1809 Pembridge
Father/mother: John/Susanna
Susan
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Keziahemm is there a Ann Tippins christened on 12. March 1823? Does it state the parents' names?
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William ch 2 Nov 1828 mar Ann (bn c. 1835. Possible marriage between a William Tippins and Ann Watkins, Jun qtr 1860 Presteigne 11b 303) Had at least 3 children Jane bn 1872, Elizabeth bn 1874, Mary bn 1879
___________________
from BIVRI
William Tippins age 31 = Ann Watkins age 21
5th May 1860 Pembridge
Husband's father: John Tippins
Wife's father: George Watkins
Hi Spider/Cimbrio will have a look for baptism of Ann
Susan :)
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No baptism for Ann listed in BIVRI
Susan
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Thanks for checking Susan. Where can I order Ann and Frederick's marriage certificate (webpage, telephone, e-mail, etc)? I really want to know more about this side.
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Once you have the reference details - year, volume, page number, you can order direct from the GRO at £7.00/certificate.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Susan
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Hi Susan!
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Had to read back through thread, so many names, was/am getting befuddled ::)
Susan ;D
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John (bn c. 1781) and Susan (bn c. 1783) Tippins had 6 (possibly 7 children):
John ch 15 Jun 1817 mar Mary (bn c. 1823, Kington) and had at least 8 children: Richard bn 1852 Presteigne, Sarah bn 1855 Presteigne, Susan bn 1857, William bn 1858, Samuel bn 1861, John bn 1865, Arthur bn 1867, James bn 1872
Samuel ch 16 Apr 1820
Anne ch 12 Mar 1823 became a Vickress
Jonathan ch 21 May 1826 mar Hannah (bn c. 1830) and had at least 8 children: Albert bn 1849, Mary Ann bn 1859, Jonathan bn 1861, John bn 1863, Susan bn 1865, Ellen bn 1867, Samuel bn 1868, William bn 1871
William ch 2 Nov 1828 mar Ann (bn c. 1835. Possible marriage between a William Tippins and Ann Watkins, Jun qtr 1860 Presteigne 11b 303) Had at least 3 children Jane bn 1872, Elizabeth bn 1874, Mary bn 1879
Susan ch 14 Apr 1833
(All ch at Staunton on Arrow)
Possible: Martha ch 23 Oct 1814 (Almeley)
1861 census: Pembridge, Herefordshire
Pokelanehead (?!)
John Tippins Head Mar 45 Ag lab bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
Mary Wife Mar 40 bn Kington, Herefordshire
Richard Son 8 Scholar bn Presteigne, Radnorshire
Sarah Dau 6 bn Presteigne, Radnorshire
Susan Dau 4 bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
William son 2 bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
RG9; Piece: 4231; Folio: 43; Page: 29
1871 census: Pembridge, Herefordshire
Brookside
John Tippins Head Mar 54 Ag lab bn Staunton, Herefordshire
Mary Wife MAr 44 bn Kington, Herefordshire
Rich C? Son 19 Labourer bn Presteigne, Radnorshire
William Son 12 Scholar bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
Samuel Son 9 Scholar bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
John Son 6 bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
Arthur Son 4 bn Pembridge, Herefordshire
RG10; Piece: 2722; Folio: 141; Page: 29;
1881 and 1891 to follow!
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1881 census: Pembridge
Forge
John Tippin Head Mar 60 Ag lab bn Pembridge
Mary Wife Mar 60 bn Kington
Richard Son 27 Ag lab bn Pembridge
Susan Dau 24 Gen serv bn Pembridge
Arthur Son 17 Ag lab bn Pembridge
James Son 9 Scholar bn Pembridge
Philip Gd son 6m bn Pembridge
RG11/2611/48/31
1891 census: Pembridge
Forge
John Tippin Head Mar 70 Farm labourer bn Staunton on Arrow
Mary Wife Mar 65 bn Kington
George Birch gson 8 bn Pembridge
RG12; Piece: 2077; Folio 110; Page 19
Richard Tippins mar Elizabeth Jane Owens Mar qtr 1882 Kington 6a 749 / 745
RG12; Piece: 2077; Folio 110; Page 20
RG13; Piece: 2500; Folio: 73; Page: 17
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Hello all,
just to let you know that we've sent for the marriage certificate and it'll arrive in about a week. I've also contacted another user in this forum, Tippin, whose ancestor Martha Tippins would be related to my Ann Tippins (aunt/niece).
Will keep you updated.
Thanks for your help :)
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On a different branch of the family, can anyone find anything on Ellen Mound, who married Samuel Cartwright Morris in Weobley Jun 1848 (26-411). I can't find anything on her, although I think in one of the census entries it said she came from Wormsley. I think she passed away in Jan 1912.
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Why has everyone gone silent all of a sudden? :'(
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Sorry, been chasing up one of my own :)
Do you have Ellen Morris (nee Mound) in any census, if so what refs?
Susan
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1851 Census in Norton Cannon
Samuel C. Morris, head, 24, carpenter, from Kington (Herefordshire)
Ellen, wife, 23, from Wormesly (Herefordshire)
Samuel, son, X months, Norton cannon
1861 Census in Kinnersley
Samuel C. Morris, 38, Kington
Ellen, 35, Wormsly
Catherine 12 Kinners
Samuel 10 Norton Cannon
Ellen 5 Kinners
Richard 1 Kinners
(also living with them is Samuel C.'s father, Samuel, 72, from Hereford Saint Peter)
1871 Kinnersley
Samuel C. Morris, 47, Kington
Ellen, 45, Wormesley Grange
Samuel 20 Norton Cannon
Ellen 15 Kinners
Richard 11 Kinners
Mary 4 Kinnersley
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1841
Emma Ellen Mound, 16, is a female servant in the household of Jane Grein, 35 farmer, in Orleton
HO107/430 book 18 folio 6 page 9
Susan
Edited to correct name to Ellen
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Thanks Susan, but it's actually ELLEN Mound :P although that info might be useful if we find a relative called Emma. I seem to remember I saw a Eleanor Mound or Morris somewhere, maybe Ellen was just the short name she used. Any marriage between Samuel Cartwright Morris and Eleanor?
Thanks!
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Oops... my mistake :-[ Have amended my post to read Ellen as per the original census
Free BMD has the marriage
Samuel Cartwright Morris June qtr. 1848 Weobley, vol 26 page 411
Ellen Mound
Susan :)
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Hello
I would be interested to know why this post has had so many views and replies when other similar ones get few or even no replies at all.
Michael
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Perhaps because the original post was a more general enquiry than some others, or perhaps the information was more readily available than for some other enquiries.
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I agree with Spidermonkey, but would like to add that I would have not got this far without her (and other users') VALUABLE help and guidance.
Thanks!
:)
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Hi all! I'm planning to go to England in September, to carry out some research in Colwall and Almeley principally. Does anyone have an e-mail address of either place's town hall/parish church or other to contact someone from there, so we can arrange an appointment beforehand?
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Hello
Suggest the Tourist Information Offices would point you in the right direction.
Malvern for Colwall
Kington or Hereford for Almeley.
Michael
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As well as the tourist info as Michael suggested, here is the website for Herefordshire Record Office http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/3584.asp . Perhaps an email/phone call to them explaining what you want to look at might give you further guidance as to what is available (especially with regard to what parish records have been deposited where)
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Hi - I am new to rootschat but came across this thread whilst researching. My maiden name is Cartwright and have traced the tree back to 1746 where I have come to a dead end. The link in my tree with the morris family is through Anne Cartwright who was the sister of Phillip Thomas (or sometimes Thomas Phillip) and he was my gt gt gt (not sure how many) grandfather. I have all the names and dates of the siblings in that generation and also all the siblings of Montillion (1746/7) who married Sarah Watkins. I have managed to find that his father was William who married Mary Harpur in 1746 in Kington this is where I have come to a dead end as i can't find any other details for him - perhaps someone could help out with that! If you want any further info let me know. Not sure where in the thread but someone refers to not knowing of a Montilion born in about 1838 - Philip Thomas had a son called Phillip Montillion born in 1836 - not sure if that helps anyone.
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Hi madfaces, thanks for joining the chat! This is good news, to have found you. I know very little about the Cartwrights, except that they existed. I've been doing the family tree for years but sadly I haven't progressed much on my English family (I have Spanish and Italian blood too). I'd love to be able to write you a few more lines telling you about my side seeing we're distantly related. If you don't mind, that is. Please give me your e-mail (via this topic or via a personal message). I'll fill you in on whatever I can do to help.
Thanks!
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(Sorry Madmaces, NOT madfaces) ;D
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Hi madmaces
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Very good news indeed you have found each other!
When you have made three posts you will be able to contact cimbrio by personal message (pm), putting e-mail addresses in public view is discouraged because of spam.
Susan :)
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This just shows you how many relatives one can have, and we have no idea that they even exist!
Madmaces, eagerly expecting your e-mail (sent you a private message with my own e-mail).
Regards
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Hi Madmaces!
That is so cool that you've found this thread. ;D
Hopefully you two will compare notes and we can try to fill in any gaps
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Hi everybody!!! Fresh news! Frederick Vickress, son of William Vickress, married Ann Tippins, daughter of.......... John Tippins! Frederick was from Hope-under-Dinmore, Ann from Staunton. So it appears that it is the Ann we thought, so my ancestry via her is confirmed :D Now I must see what her mother's maiden name is, as it doesn't appear anywhere (her name was Susan, and she was born circa 1783).
:)
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I am so glad that the cert confirms that Ann belongs to John and Susan!
As for Susan's maiden name, I think several pages back Susan found a marriage between John Tippins and Susannah Evans (24 Mar 1809 in Lyonshall), which I think is worth keeping in mind. (And welcome to the joys of researching names like Evans!!)
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Wonder if anyone can help me, I'm trying to establish what happened to some of the brothers and sisters of my great-great-grandmother, Elizabeth Vickress. I have found a few leads which maybe a census would clarify.
The people I'm interested in are
Diana Vickress (b. Jul 1851 Lyonshall, Herefordshire)
Jane Vickress (b. Oct 1854 ditto)
Marianne Vickress (b. Mar 1856 ditto)
Thomas Frederick Vickress (b. Jul 1862 ditto).
I have found a Thomas Frederick Vickress who married in Jun qrtr 1887 in Macclesfield (no connections there as far as I know), and oddly enough a Diana Vickress also married in the same place in Sep qrtr 1878.
I have also found that a Diana Vickress died in Jun 1851 in Leominster, but I think that may have been their aunt, who was born in 1830 in Hope under Dinmore.
Any ideas?
:)
Maybe the 1881 census could reveal where they came from...
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Hello
As a matter of interest in connection with this thread.
There is a wonderful novel by Sue Gee called the Mysteries of Glass. It is about a Curate in Lyonshall near Kington and gives an atmosphere of the area in the 1800s.
Michael
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I wouldn't rule out the Macclesfield link - look at this census return for 1901
Hawkins Lane, Rainow, Cheshire
Thomas Vickress H M 39 General Labourer
Lydia W M 43
Lydia Ellen Dau 11 School girl
Evelyne May Dau 7 School girl
Charles Henry Son 5 School boy
Constance Mary Dau 8mnths
All born Rainow, Cheshire except Thomas who was born Lyonshall
RG13; Piece: 3307; Folio: 32; Page: 10
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Robert Gaskell mar Diana Vickress in 1878
1881 census Mill Brook Cottage, Rainow, Cheshire
Robert Gaskell H M 28 Can't read occupation bn Cheshire Rainow
Diana W M 25 bn Herefordshire Lyonshall
Frederick S 1 bn Cheshire Rainow
RG11; Piece: 3490; Folio: 37; Page: 19
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By 1901, it looks as if Diana has lost her husband
Church St, Bollington, Cheshire
Diana Gaskell H Wid 47 bn Herefordshire Lyons Hall
Fred son 21 Bleachers calenderer bn Cheshire Rainow
Ann dau 18 Paper cutter bn Cheshire Rainow
Elizabeth dau 13 Paper calenderer bn Cheshire Bollington
Samuel son 11 bn Cheshire Bollington
Emma dau 7 bn Cheshire Bollington
Dora dau 4 bn Cheshire Bollington
RG13; Piece: 3305; Folio: 92; Page: 25
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Possible death for Jane Vickress Sept qtr 1855 Presteigne 11b 102
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In 1881, Thomas is still with his parents, Frederick and Ann, in Pembridge
West St, Pembridge
Frederick Vickress H M 65 Carpenter and joiner bn Hope, Heref
Ann W Mar 55 bn Staunton on Arrow
William Son 21 Carpenter and joiner bn Lyonshall
Thomas Son 18 Ag lab bn Lyonshall
Charles Son 10 Scholar bn Lyonshall
RG11; Piece: 2611; Folio: 25; Page: 20;
So Thomas must have moved to Macclesfield between 1881 and 1887
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On the 1891 census, Robert and Diana Gaskell and Thomas Vickress appear to have gone out for the night leaving Lydia Vickress to babysit ;)
1891 census
Church St, Bollington, Cheshire
Frederick Gaskell son 11 packer/mill hand bn Rainow Cheshire
Ann Gaskell dau 8 scholar bn Rainow, Cheshire
Florence Gaskell dau 5 scholar bn Bollington, Cheshire
Elizabeth Gaskell dau 3 Scholar bn Bollington, Cheshire
Lydia Vickress sis in law 32 bn Rainow, Cheshire
Lydia Vickress dau 1 bn Rainow, Cheshire
RG12; Piece: 2809; Folio 85; Page 39
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Spidermonkey, as always, AMAZING!
It does look like Diana married Robert Gaskell and had six children called Frederick, Ann, Florence, Elizabeth, Samuel, Emma and Dora. Robert Gaskell passed away in 1898.
Thomas Frederick Vickress married Lydia Sutton and had five children: Lydia Ellen, Thomas Frederick (1891-1891), Eveline May, Charles Henry and Constance May.
As for Jane, she did die in 1855 since her aunt of the same name was still alive in 1861 and living with the child's grandmother.
By the way, I've never seen this reference before:
In 1881, Thomas is still with his parents, Frederick and Ann, in Pembridge
West St, Pembridge
Frederick Vickress H M 65 Carpenter and joiner bn Hope, Heref
Ann W Mar 55 bn Staunton on Arrow
William Son 21 Carpenter and joiner bn Lyonshall
Thomas Son 18 Ag lab bn Lyonshall
Charles Son 10 Scholar bn Lyonshall
RG11; Piece: 2611; Folio: 25; Page: 20;
First time I hear of this Charles :o
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Charles Henry Vickress bn Sept qtr 1870 Kington 6a 150
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Marriage from Free BMD
June qtr. 1902 Kington 6a/1129
Charles Henry Vickress
= either Martha Price
or Elizabeth Postians
(Elizabeth Postians would be good, easier than Price, but then who said family history was easy ::))
Susan
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Thanks Susan! It IS going to be difficult to find that one out, but I have a new muddle.
I have found the death of a Henry Vickress who died in Wolverhampton in 1874 aged 45, which fits perfectly with the facts we already know about Henry Edward Vickress, son of William and Elizabeth, who was born in 1830. I have also found that Henry Edward Vickress married in Jun 1854 in Birmingham but the wife's name is a bit puzzling (it's either Eliza Haywood or Mary Davis); it seems the family eventually moved to Wolverhampton district, as he died there.
A daughter (I presume) called Jane died in Wolverhampton in Mar 1872 aged 4, a son called William Henry died at about the same time aged 3, and a daughter Drusilla (which is the name of one of Henry Edward's sisters 1817-1901) died at age 0 in Sep 1873. Henry Edward himself died two years after.
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Henry Charles Vickress married Elizabeth Postians in June 1902 at Pembridge.
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Thank you Puffcat. I'm trying to find out if they had any children but nothing yet.
I have found that John Vickress (b.1890), son of William Vickress (1859-1936) and Ellen Morris (1855-1924), married Ellen Rawlings and had the following children:
*William T.J. Vickress (1912), married Dorothy Hancocks, and were the parents of Roy W.R. Vickress (1934)
*Milbore P.L. Vickress (1914)
*Ellen M. Vickress (1916)
*Austen J. Vickress (1918)
*Robert F. Vickress (1921)
*Arthur R. Vickress (1923)
*Lawton R. Vickress (1925)
*Derick C. Vickress (1929)
John's sister Milborough Vickress (1892) married (1916) Austin T. Jenksm and were the parents of:
*Doris M. Jenks (1917)
*Joyce M. jenks (1928)
John and Milborough's sister Ann Drusilla (1893) married (1921) John F. Green, and were the parents of:
*Jack F.W. Green (1922)
*Bertram R. Green (1924)
*Kathleen Green (1928)
*Doris M. Green (1930)
I wonder whether any of these are still alive! I'd so much like to find out more about them. I didn't realsie this at first but the Vickress family is huge, and it pretty much looks like all the Vickresses in Herefordshire are related to me.
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Possibly a Daisy in 1904 is daughter to Charles Henry and Elizabeth.
1911 Census would confirm
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I had a look at the transcript for Daisy on the 1911, and she is the daughter of an Elizabeth Vickress aged 44, bn in Eardisland. Elizabeth is listed as married but doesn't give the number of years married. No husband appears on the transcript.
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News!
Charles Henry Vickress (b. Sep 1870) was NOT the son of Frederick Vickress and Ann née Tippins, but rather the son of Edward Vickress and Ann (maiden name for the moment unknown). The only Edward I've found is one born in 1835, son of Mary Ann Vickress (there is a Henry Edward Vickress, 1830-1875, but I don't think it's him) and unknown father. I think it's the Mary Ann Vickress born in 1813, elder sister of Frederick Vickress, so Edward was Frederick's nephew and Charles Henry his great-nephew).
If anyone can confirm this (census info etc) please confirm so I can change Charles Henry's position on the tree.
Thanks!
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And a Mary Ann Vickress (the same one as the mother maybe?) married Joseph Caldwell in Hope under Dinmore on April 17th 1837. Can anyone check the 1841 or 1851 census to see if there is Edward Vickress living with the Caldwell family? If it is the same Mary Ann he was certainly never legitimised as Joseph Caldwell's son... Penny for your thoughts!
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Will have a look for you now.
Have just been looking at the Times online archive for Vickresses, and there are loads about the London Vickresses (we'll have to work out your connection to them aswell ;)) But, tucked away was a couple of paragraphs about a double murder in Herefordshire :o According to the paper Thomas Bown/Bounds (aged 75) shot himself after shooting dead William Alfred Vickress (aged about 45) with whom he had been living. William Vickress' daughter witnessed it :(
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When was that murder, Spidermonkey? Is it William Alfred Vickress who was born in 1877, son of Alfred Vickress and Hannah Orchard? He had two daughters... I initially thought I was descended from the London Vickresses, but perhaps there is a link further up...
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Found them on the 1871, but as yet not found them on other censuses
Vern, Marden, Herefordshire
Joseph Caldwell Head Mar 58 Axe helve maker bn Herefordshire Yazor
Mary A Caldwell Wife Mar 58 bn Herefordshire Hope under Dinmore
Edward Caldwell Son Unm 36 Invalid soldier bn Herefordshire Hope under Dinmore
James Caldwell Son Unm 29 Helve maker bn herefordshire St Margarets
Selina Caldwell Dau Unm 22 bn Staffordshire Winguinford (?)
RG10; Piece: 2695; Folio: 42; Page: 5
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When was that murder, Spidermonkey? Is it William Alfred Vickress who was born in 1877, son of Alfred Vickress and Hannah Orchard? He had two daughters... I initially thought I was descended from the London Vickresses, but perhaps there is a link further up...
It was reported on May 2 1927, so I bet it is William bn 1877 (the newspaper was very vague about his age). The newpaper report does mention an inquest so it might be that one of the local papers carried a report of the inquest. I couldn't find anything else in The Times
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The murder happened at Litmarsh MArden. Bown must have died there and then, but Vickres lived until the next day and died in hospital.
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1861: South St, Leominster
Mary Ann Caldwell Wife Mar 48 bn Herefordshire Hope
James Caldwell Son Unm 19 Pike Helve Maker bn Herefordshire St MArgarets
Selina Caldwell Dau Unm 12 bn Worcestershire Kingswinford
THomas Rogers lodger mar 32 Baker and confectioner bn Radnorshire Presteigne
Henry Hayes lodger Unm 39 Cabinet maker and upholsterer bn Yorkshire Leeds
RG9; Piece: 1831; Folio: 32; Page: 15
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1851: New Hall, Lower Gornal, Sedgley
Jos Calwell Head Mar 38 cooper bn Herefordshire, Yazor
Mary Ann Wife Mr 38 bn Herefordshire, Hope
Edward Son 16 Brickmaker bn Herefordshire, Hope
William son 13 bn Herefordshire, Hope
Elizabeth dau 11 bn Herefordshire, Hope
James son 9 bn Herefordshire, St Margaret
Drusilla dau 4 bn Herefordshire St MArgaret
Selina dau 2 bn Stafford, Kingswinford
HO107; Piece: 2030; Folio: 325; Page: 16
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The murder happened at Litmarsh MArden. Bown must have died there and then, but Vickres lived until the next day and died in hospital.
And according to Google, there are still Vickresses in Litmarsh today........
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1841 census: Cubon? House, St Margarets, Herefordshire
Joseph Caldwel 26 Cooper
Mary Ann Caldwell 26
Edward Caldwell 6
William Caldwell 3
Elizabeth Caldwell 2
All born in county
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I really don't know if we're barking up the wrong tree of if it's the same Edward, because if he appears as Caldwell but then he married and his children were Vickresses then it's a different person... I'd like to find out more about Mary Ann Vickress, his presumed mother, who was born on or around February 2nd 1813 in Hope under Dinmore; she isn't listed as living with her family in 1841... Can anyone fish out Mary Ann Vickress's marriage to Joseph Caldwell, to see her father's name? Have you noticed that one of her alledged daughters is called Drusilla, like Mary Ann's sister? (And Elizabeth...)
As to William Alfred's murder, does anyone have the article?
Thanks all for your help :)
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Dan, PM me your email address and I'll send you the article.
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It is not unusual for a child born prior to a marriage to be enumerated on a census with the same surname as the head of the family - even if they were not the child of the head of household.
Certainly, I can't see another Mary Ann Vickress around at the same place and at the same time so it would seem that Edward Vickress, son of Mary Ann, is the same person as Edward Caldwell.
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In that case I'll place Edward as her son before she married, and then add the marriage to J. Caldwell.
Thanks for the e-mail Spidermonkey, already rang my dad to tell him; curiously William Alfred was killed on the day of my birthday (some years before I was born of course). Also got your guestbook entry on tribalpages, thanks! :D
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So it seems Mary Ann Vickress (1813-?) had a child called Edward Vickress (1835) by an unknown father. She then married in 1837 Joseph Caldwell, and had five children:
William (1839 Hope under Dinmore)
Elizabeth (1840 Hope under Dinmore)
James (1842 Saint Margaret's)
Drusilla (1847 Saint Margaret's)
Selina (1849 Kingswinford).
I'm trying to find dates of death and so on but to no avail. I saw that Edward Vickress was an invalid soldier in one census. I wonder if we can search for that... Would he have been injured in a war.
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News!
Charles Henry Vickress (b. Sep 1870) was NOT the son of Frederick Vickress and Ann née Tippins, but rather the son of Edward Vickress and Ann (maiden name for the moment unknown). The only Edward I've found is one born in 1835, son of Mary Ann Vickress (there is a Henry Edward Vickress, 1830-1875, but I don't think it's him) and unknown father. I think it's the Mary Ann Vickress born in 1813, elder sister of Frederick Vickress, so Edward was Frederick's nephew and Charles Henry his great-nephew).
If anyone can confirm this (census info etc) please confirm so I can change Charles Henry's position on the tree.
Thanks!
Am unsure of Edward son of Mary Ann being the same Edward father of Charles. We have Edward son of Mary on 1871 census as apparently single, and I've just found him on 1891 census living alone in Wellington.
Fingers crossed, I'll be going to the record office in May, so I'll have a look through the parish records etc to see if there are any clues.
Where did you get the info that Charles was the son of Edward and Ann?
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http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=recordResults;givenName=Charles;surname=Vickress;searchId=111263133538228930000;collectionId=1473014;searchType=standard
Charles Henry Vickress, christened on 21 August 1870 in Lyonshall, son of Edward and Ann.
I'm in a rush now, packing, going on holiday for 5 days (the Adriatic no less). Hope you all have a nice tiem meanwhile, and I hope I'll finds lots of new info when I come back (fingers crossed) :D
Take care, thanks Suzy!
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Enjoy your holiday!
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I think that William Vickress (brother of Frederick) married Mary Orchard who was the aunt of Hannah Orchard who married Alfred Vickress (brother of William and Frederick) ::)
Going away for the weekend, but will try to post dates etc when I come back
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Hi y'all, I'm back from my Balkan trip (Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia-Hercegovina, all beautiful, I ardently recommend them!). Spidermonkey, can you confirm the marriage between William Vickress and Mary Orchard, date, place, etc? It doesn't seem as if they had children from what I have seen, and as for death dates, I think William passed away in 1870, and Mary lived for a few more years.
I suppose Alfred met Hannah orchard via Mary orchard, but then again it wasn't strange that people from two families intermarried... Look at Elizabeth Vickress marrying Samuel Morris and Ellen Morris marrying William Vickres...
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Ok,
On 1861 census we have:
Lower House, Marden, Herefordshire
William Vickress H Mar 48 Farmer bn Hope under Dinmore
Mary Vickress W Mar 48 Farmers wife bn Cleobury, Shropshire
Milbrow Vickress Sis unm 40 Farmers dau bn Hope under Dinmore
Hannah Orchard neice unm 26 bn Tenbury
RG9; Piece: 1818; Folio: 120; Page: 9
William Vickress mar Mary Orchard Sept qtr 1852 Leominster 6a 787
In 1851:
Blackhall Lane, Kingsland
Mary Orchard H Unm 38 Landed Proprietor bn Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire
Hannah Orchard neice unm 14 House maid bn N. K. Worcestershire
Sarah Rogers serv unm 20 Dairy maid bn N. K. Worcestershire
HO107; Piece: 1981; Folio: 383; Page: 20
Hannah Orchard was the daughter of Joel and Hannah Orchard 10 Jan 1838 Ribbesford, Kidderminster
Joel and Mary were children of William Orchard and Mary
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Thank you :) Is the 1838 date the marriage date between Joel and Hannah or Hannah Jr's birth date?
Already included the facts in the family tree :) Logically they didn't have any children together, William and Mary, they were both 41 when they married...
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1838 is Hannah's birthdate.
Hannah senior died, and Joel remarried to Mary Bean.
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This is my 1st use of the site and and see post by you late last year on "Vickress". I have just started putting together the family tree. Anf information you could forward on Vickress's would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Vickress and welcome to Rootschat! There is quite a lot of info on Vickresses within this thread (did you know you can print out the thread which I've found sometimes makes reading through info a lot easier!), do you fit into the Herefordshire Vickress branch?
If you want any help researching, give a shout and we'll all be along to try and help (or hinder in my case ;))
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I am working my way through all the names and dates in the thread. I can trace my Grandfathers William Henry Vickress's birth in 1898 in London. His father was Thomas Vickress born in 1858 -1926. I have just started to look further back.
My parents moved to Canada in 1951 where I live, so I am not sure what is the best method to get info in England where almost all the Vickress's I know of live or lived. Any tips on how I should proceed would be appreciated.
I have put togeher the Vickress family tree as I know it at http://www.myheritage.com/site-60091191/vickress-family-web-site. (http://www.myheritage.com/site-60091191/vickress-family-web-site.)
Feel free to pass it to anyone who is internested in the Vickress family.
Cheers
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Hi Vickress,
I'm the one who started this embroglio of a thread. My great-great grandmother was a Vickress (I see you've included her on the My Heritage family tree). Any luck finding the link? The Vickresses came from Herefordshire, England. There are also some (not related, for the moment) in Kent and London, and others (a branch of my family) in Cheshire.
I haven't been able to fit in your great-grandfather but by all means e-mail me so we can work a bit on what our common link is.
I'm off to Stambul for the weekend, be back on Monday!
Ciao!
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Hola,
I am 'treating' myself to a day at Hereford Record Office next Friday (and if anyone fancies meeting up there, let me know!). So if there is anything that you want me to check up please post it ASAP!
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Hi Spider!
Good to "read" you again. Does Hereford R Office cover all of Herefordshire? I don't know if you need to pay for the certificates, or if it's freee to just have a look at them. If so, then I'd like to know about the death of Susan Tippins (maiden name unknown), mother of Ann Tippins and mother-in-law of Frederick Vickress, who you'll remember died in 1884 aged 101. Her reference is Kington 6a 335 (that's why I don't know if her certificate will be there).
I'd also like to know about the marriage of Ellen Mound and Samuel Morris (Weobley 26 411, Weobley, Jun 1848).
And if you can, I'd like to know about Charles Henry Vickress's mother, called Ann; his father is Edward Vickress (born 1835) who we think is the illegitimate child of Mary Ann Vickress (Frederick's elder sister). Charles Henry was born in Sep qrtr 1870 in Lyonshall, and died in 1915.
That's all I can think of. Wayne Vickress (vickress on this webpage) has contacted me and we're trying to find out if there's a link between both families. I'll let you know what I've found and see if we can all find out something else.
Thanks Spider! :)
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Hereford R. O. does cover all of Herefordshire. As far as I know, I wont be able to look at the death certificate, but I will see if there is an obituary in the local paper (can't be too many people dying aged 101!) WIll also look up the other things - again it wont the be the certs, but the entries in the church records.
Will also look for the birth of Ellen Mound, as I don't think we've cracked that one (will have a reread of this thread just to check though!)
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Hello all,
this is what I've found about what I think is vickress's family tree, according to what he says on his webpage above. My sources have been the 1911 census, Free BMD and Family Search; if anyone can corroborate in any way the following information I'm sure he'll be most grateful; I'd like to know if his family and mine are connected, since his family seem pretty much London based and mine don't seem to go out of Herefordshire.
The tree is as follows:
James Vickress (may have died Dec 1852 in Shoreditch), married Ann. Parents of the following, all born in Bethnal Green and christened in St. Leonard's or St. Matthew's:
William Henry Vickress (b. 12 April 1821 in Bethnal Green)
Jane Ann Vickress (b. 8 March 1823)
John Vickress (b. 9 June 1832)
George Vickress (b. 12 July 1834)
James Vickress (b. 8 September 1827)
Barnard Vickress (b. 24 April 1830)
William Henry Vickress married Mar qtr 1848 in Bethnal Green to Sophia Smith; he died in 1897 aged 75, she died in 1886 aged 68. They had the following children, all from Bethnal Green too:
Sarah Ann Vickress (b. Sep 1848), married Alfred Rea.
William George Vickress (b. 30 August 1851, christened two years later)
Thomas Vickress (Mar 1854, died Sep 1855)
James John Vickress (June 1858, died Jun 1859)
Thomas James Vickress (born 13 July 1856), married Mary Singleton in Sep 1881.
Eliza Sophia Vickress (born 14 July 1859), married also in 1881.
William Vickress (Jun 1860, died Dec 1861).
Thomas James Vickress and Mary Singleton had nine children at least; two girls called Mary (one born and died in 1884, the other one born and died in 1885), one Sophia (1890-1891), Thomas William (b. 1894), Eliza (born in 1888 or 1883), William Henry (born 1896), Margaret (born 1892), Ethel Mary (b. 1901), Florence Sarah (b. 1887, married 1915 Arthur Ostwald or Gatward).
There are other branches of Vickresses, like the one that stems out of the marriage between Edward Vickress and Rebecca Baylis, who married on Feb 4th 1769 on Hope under Dinmore. They children: Edna, Edward, Mary, Rebecca (I), Rebecca (II), and William. Maybe, just maybe, the younger Edward married Maria Charlotte Meliar in 1806 and had children: Charlotte, Maria Ann, James, Thomas and William.
Phew! :o
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Hello all,
been offline a bit lately. Got a free hour here so trying to get some things sorted on the family tree. I've reached a major stumper which maybe someone might be able to help me with. It's about the Allen family who as you know married into the Morros family (my great-grandparents William and Elizabeth). William Allen's mother, Jane, was born Jane Davis on April 10th 1846 in West Malvern. Her parents were John Davis and Maria Parker, who married in West Malvern on March 17th 1845. I think Maria was the Maria Parker born in October 1814 in Kempsey (Worcestershire), daughter of William Parker and Sarah Smith, both of Alderminster. If anyone can (a) confirm the info on the Parkers, and more importantly, (b) tell me something about John Davis (where was her from, for instance; it must say his age and place of birth on the 1851 census, but I have no access to it, and Davis is such a common name that I've found it impossible to find anything else on him).
Thanks again!
Spidermonkey, did you find anything in the Record Office?
Regards!
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Hiya, 'fraid I didn't find anything useful in the records office. Sorry :'( When you come over in September we can have another bash at it then!
Your Jane Davis in 1861 is here:
Wytche Road, Colwall
John Davis Head 56 Wood dealer bn Colwall Herefordshire
Maria Davis Wife 46 Grocer bn Kempsey Worcestershire
Jane Davis Dau 14 Scholar bn Colwall Herefordshire
James Howell Boarder 4 Scholar Place of Birth not given
RG9; Piece: 1808; Folio: 50; Page: 3
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Thanks Spidermonkey, I'll let you know when I'm going exactly, I so look forward to doing a little research there.
I've looked on Family Search for John Allen from Colwall born around 1805 and there's two candidates:
one christened on June 26th 1803/1804 (both dates appear, but it's the same person I'm sure), son of Mary Davis and unknown father, OR one christened on Aprul 5th 1807, son of John Allen and Phoebe (no other Phoebes in the tree so far)... If there's any way to know which one of them is my John Allen I'm all ears :)
Thanks Spidermonkey!
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Now you've confused me! Who is John Allen? But as to which John Allen - if he married after 1837, you could get his marriage cert and see who he states is his father.
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Yes, you are quite right, I'll do just that.
I meant John Davis, sorry!
His grandson William John Allen (through his only daughter Jane Davis) married Elizabeth Morris, daughter of Samuel Morris and Elizabeth Vickress.
I'm going to see if we can order the certificate today :)
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Hi
I thought I would throw my hat in the ring.
I have learnt this all very recently so am learning about my history slowly, I would quite like to learn more, I hope the following information is of interest to you.
My Great Grandmother was Mary Morris who married Amos Lane, when Amos died my Grandmother Emily Ellen Lane, her brother Thomas Charles Lane, sister Catherine Mary Lane went with their mother Mary Née Morris to live with Samuel C Morris and Ellen (who by all accounts was a very feisty Lady) They lived with them until Samuel died.
I have a clock which I inherited from my Grandmother who could remember it hanging on Ellen and Samuel’s wall when she lived with them. There’s also a family Bible with a family tree in it going back a long way. I saw it as a child but don’t know what happened to it, I’ll ask around the family? I do remember there being a Spanish name in it. I wonder if anyone knows where it fits in.
My grandmother met her husband William Arthur Brown born 1886 through their parents knowing each other as he was born in Prestbury not far from Macclesfield, I’m wondering if there is any connection with his parents Henry Brown born 1848 and Elizabeth Ann neé Hindley born 1846. As Diana and Thomas Frederick Vickress both Married in Macclesfield, any ideas?
Just a thought, were your Nan and Auntie Joan my mother Mary Ellen Brown (deceased) cousins? If they were could you please ask if they ever met one another?
You asked about William L Nash, he visited my grandmother from time to time, she also stayed with him and his wife at Windsor Castle, they lived in an arms house in the castle grounds, he was a charming man, I think he may have been head of the household there, after retiring from a military career, I remember he had the most beautiful ceremonial drum, I am unsure as to whether he had any children.
Any news on Ellen Mound? All I know is her father was Thomas Mound.
Regards
Arbor
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Hi Arbor!
Welcome to Rootschat! That is fab info you have just supplied, I do hope you and Cimbrio get a chance to share info.
All the best,
Spidermonkey
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This is fabulous! To find relatives like this is great, Internet doesn't cease to amaze me! ;D
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No news for Arbor yet, I hope he writes back soon! This is so exciting, to find relatives so easily!
I'd like to ask someone (wink @ Spidermonkey) to see if we can find out anything about Elizabeth Gatehouse, wife of William Vickress. They married in 1811 in Hope, but I've got that she was from leominster, don't know why. Also any ideas about William's ancestors?
Looking forward to my British trip!
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No news for Arbor yet, I hope he writes back soon! This is so exciting, to find relatives so easily!
I'd like to ask someone (wink @ Spidermonkey) to see if we can find out anything about Elizabeth Gatehouse, wife of William Vickress. They married in 1811 in Hope, but I've got that she was from leominster, don't know why. Also any ideas about William's ancestors?
Looking forward to my British trip!
Who? Me? ;D
I can't do any look ups at the moment cos I'm back at work, but remind me in a few weeks time when it's school holidays and I shall see what I can do. I think the only thing I turned up last time I looked, was a record that Elizabeth was the daughter of the parish clerk.
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Hello everyone!
After some time, I've come back to explore what I can about the Vickresses.
I decided to explore a branch a bit further, and this is what I've come up with, but if anyone can confirm this information or expand it if there are any missing persons, I'd be very thankful.
Henry Edward Vickress, son of William and Elizabeth, brother of my great-great-great-grandfather Frederick, was born in 1830 in Hope under Dinmore, Hereford. He had a twin sister, Diana, who seems to have died in 1851.
Henry married in Birmingham in 1854 Mary Davies. I think they had two children:
Caroline Ann, b.Mar 1855
Mary Ann, b.Jun 1857.
The family seems to have moved, or otherwise was registered in, Wolverhampton/Staffordshire.
Mary Vickress née Davies died in Sep 1857, so shortly after the daughter was born.
In Dec 1859 Henry remarried to Sarah Foizey. In Jun 1862 his youngest daughter from his first marriage died, and in Sep 1862 another daughter, christened Mary Ann, was born and given the deceased sister's name. She died in Jun 1863.
Around the time of the death, another sister was born, Mercy (b. Jun 1863) who is listed in the 1881 census with her mother. I know she died single in Jan 1886 after giving birth to an illegitimate son called Arthur, who died shortly after.
Henry Edward and Sarah had at least three more children: Jane (b.Sep 1867, d.Mar 1872), William Henry (b.Mar 1869, d.Mar 1872) and Drusilla (b.Mar 1873, d. Sep 1873).
In 1875 Henry Edward died aged 44-45. His widow died in 1881 shortly after the census was taken. His youngest surviving daughter Mercy died in 1886, and his oldest daughter from the first marriage died in 1891 in Kings Norton, Warwickshire. So by 1891 Henry Edward's family (himself, two wives and at least seven children) had passed away. as far as I can see, there are no descendants.
I'd like to know if the 1861 or 1871 census give any more information, whether it mentions any other children. Sometimes the surname is confused with Vickers (for instance on the BMD Index).
Thank you!
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The 1861 gives them living in Fore St, Kingswinford
Henry VICKERS Head MAr 29 Carpenter bn Herefordshire Hope
Sarah VICKERS WIfe Mar 31 bn Staffordshire Pensnett
Caroline VICKERS Dau 6 bn Warwickshire Birmingham
Mary Elizabeth VICKERS Dau 1 bn Staffordshire Pensnett
RG9; Piece: 2071; Folio: 68; Page: 34
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1871 census: 91 Pearson St, Wolverhampton
Henry VICKERS HEad MAr 40 House joiner and painter bn Herefordshire Hope under Dinmore
Sarah VICKERS Wife Mar 40 wife of house joiner and painter bn Staffs Pensnett
Mary VICKERS Dau 11 bn Staffs Pensnett
Mercy VICKERS Dau 8 bn Staffs Pensnett
Jane VICKERS DAu 3 bn Staffs Netherton
William H VICKERS Son 2 bn Staffs Tipton
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Spidermonkey, thank you once again :)
So there's Mary Elizabeth who hasn't popped up before...
It seems that the family moved about a bit, since the children were born in different places... Could Henry not hold on to a job, I wonder? I noticed his wife had no profession, but in 1881 is down as a "washerwoman".
I can't see Mary Elizabeth's birth entry on Free BMD, I would think she was Henry and Sarah's first child (and it's her who is down as Mary in the 1871 census...).
What I find odd is that they spell the surname Vickers, not VICKRESS, but in fact I've found Mercy's birth (for example) as VICKERS, not Vickress. Would it have been changed, or just a mistake? I know it's the same family as mine since Henry's the right age and comes from Hope-under-Dinmore.
Spidermonkey, thanks!
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With the surname, I think it was just seemed as interchangable - a combination of poor literacy, and unfamiliar accents pronouncing the name.
Henry seems to have been recorded as a VIckress on the index ref for his death
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Just to make the search all the more interesting :D
I'm wondering about the three surviving daughters: Caroline Ann, Mary (Elizabeth) and Mercy. I know Caroline Ann was working for a family as a servant in 1881, and died ten years after; she was a spinster, aged 37. I don't know whether she had any children.
Mercy lost her mother in late 1881, and four years later gave birth to a son who died very young. She herself died aged 23 in early 1886.
As for Mary (Elizabeth), I would imagine she either died or married, which would explain why she isn't with her mother and sister in the 1881 and 1891 census entry. Is it possible to check her out, either as Mary or Mary E(lizabeth) Vickers/Vickress? Maybe she too was working in another household. There is a marriage in Dudley reg. district in Sep 1889 of a Mary Elizabeth Vickers and either Samuel Lunn (I think this would be her husband) or Joseph Potter. If she isn't on the 1891 census, maybe there's a Mary E. Lunn/Potter listed as having been born in Pensnett Staffordshire? As for her birth, I've had a look and there isn't a Mary Vickers who fits the census entry in 1861, but there's an Elizabeth born in Dec 1860 in Dudley (who would have been born as Henry's and Sarah's first child, a year after their marriage took place).
(Spidermonkey, I don't want to impose but you've been so helpful...) :)
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Fresh news: a probate record of November 1886.
Mercy Vickress died on Feb. 7th 1886, a spinster, in Erdington, in the county of Warwick. She was "late of 263 Great Lister street, Birmingham in the county of Warwick". The administration of the estate was granted to her sister Mary Elizabeth Vickress, spinster, one of the next of Kin.
So it proves not only that Mary Elizabeth was still alive in 1886, but she was single as well. The question now is what became of her after that...?
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There is a Samuel and Mary E Lunn on the 1901 census. The age for Mary is a bit out - she seems to have knocked about 7 years off her true age (perhaps because Samuel gives his age as being born in 1868). There is a corresponding death for Mary in 1907 in Dudley but again that gives her age as 40, about 7 years out for our Mary.
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Does it say where Mary was from? As far as I know Mary E was born in Pensnett, at least that's what the 1861 and 1871 census show, as were several of her siblings.
Thanks Spidermonkey, have a nice day! :)
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Hi. I have Anne Morris m. Anthony Arndell 21/4/1708 at Kington. Just wondering if there is a connection.
Cheers,
Gary.