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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: KAMA on Wednesday 31 December 08 21:53 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
We have a family headstone in Glenluce Scotland which was erected by William Gracie of Tasmania in memory of his family in Scotland.
William was born in Old Luce, Wigtownshire Scotland on 22.3.1821 and possibly married Susan Ann Elmer and had child William Hugh Gracie, this however is not 100% as we have no proof.
We would love any information at all on William or his family about their emmigration to fill in the many gaps we have on our tree.
Yours hopefully
kama
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There are two listings for William GRACIE that seem to be your man on
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
GRACIE, WILLIAM
Gender: Male
Birth 1821 - SCOTLAND
Marriage/Relationship:
Death: 1891 - HOBART,Tasmania
GRACIE, WILLIAM
Gender: Male
Birth
Marriage/Relationship: 1849 - LAUNCESTON,Tasmania ( ELMER, SUSAN )
Death:
FAMILY INFORMATION
Children:
138772 GRACIE FRANCES JEANET 1850
138771 GRACIE WILLIAM HUGH 1851
138773 GRACIE JOHN HUGH 1855
138774 GRACIE F 1858
138775 GRACIE WILLIAM WALLACE 1861
138776 GRACIE AMY ELMER 1865
138777 GRACIE EDITH ALICE GORDON 1871
According to the information on the website William Hugh GRACIE died in 1852.
There is a Will listed for the William GRACIE who died in 1891.
GRACIE William 1891 AD960/1/18 495 4176
Cheers
Cando
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here are there birth dates all born Hobart
138772 GRACIE FRANCES JEANET 1850 born 3/2/1850
138771 GRACIE WILLIAM HUGH 1851 born 19/12/1851
138773 GRACIE JOHN HUGH 1855 born 13/1/1855
138774 GRACIE F 1858 2/4/1858 born 2/4/1858
138775 GRACIE WILLIAM WALLACE 1861 born 25/10/1861
138776 GRACIE AMY ELMER 1865 born 9/4/1865
138777 GRACIE EDITH ALICE GORDON 1871 born19/7/1871
there is another William Gracie though
GRACIE WILLIAM aged 30 married Eve Tattersall aged 23
2/12/1850 at CAMPBELL TOWN
Registration Number: 30/1850
Reference: RGD 37
Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
The William GRACIE you found seems to be a convict.
Here is his permission to marry application.
GRACIE, William. status, free to TATTERSALL, Eve. [St Vincent] 05 NOV 1850.
EVE is certainly listed on the convict database, but I don't immediately see William. Perhaps he was not.
Sue
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Hi,
http://eheritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/
Shows headstones fora number of GRACIE's which may interest you including...........
WILLIAM GRACIE died in 1891 aged 70. Queensborough Sandy Bay [Book]
?? Charlotte GRACIE died 1893 aged 42. Same location as the above William??
William Wallace GRACIE died 1870 aged 8. Hobart St Andrew's Presbyterian.
The content of this record is provided by Tasmanian Family History Society Inc. Hobart Branch. For any questions about the content please contact them.
Sue
ADDING
There is a headstone too for SUSAN GRACIE who died in 1880 aged 52.
This is in the same location as the above Charlotte and William [Queensborough]
"married Susan Ann Elmer "
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http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch/index.aspx
Searching the National Archives there is ww1 War Record for one William Henry GRACIE and his mother is next of kin named FLORENCE ANNIE GRACIE.
Florence Annie, it seems, died in 1965 aged 93 and she has a commemorative headstone too.[see above]
Now, there is a good deal of correspondence in the file and William Henry may have married [perhaps to a Marion as this is the next of kin on a ww2 enlistment by a man named William Henry GRACIE]
NOW, :D A letter in the ww1 file from William Henry is dated 1967 and he still living at Devonport then.
http://www.whitepages.com.au
shows a cople of GRACIE adresses and ph. numbers in Devonport.
A note or call to them may help further to fill in some of your family pieces.
Sue
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Perhaps have a browse of the Tasmanian papers
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Susan is mentioned as a witness to a robbery. There are many mentions of a William [insolvency, signature on parliamentary petition, transfer of publican's licence, ?grain trader/merchant and creditor in someone else's insolvency hearing]; and the death of Amy Elmer HOLT in Sydney in 1916 as dau of Wm GRACIE of Hobart.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi,
Here is the birth of the William Henry GRACIE I mentioned above.
It is in Queensland
1896/C121 Gracie William Henry.father Henry Douglas. mother Florence Annie Jay .
So now I rethink the relevance :o
Sue
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Hi,
About the will of William GRACIE.
I am not sure if the reference made by cando is to the same source as the one I am looking at.
Though it is certainly the same man!
The one I see is at Proarchives [Victoria]. I can't make the numbers given by cando line up with the reference numbers to this particular document which is fully digitised.
Anyhow, the interesting thing is that by November 1891 when he wrote the Will, he speaks of one son, JOHN HUGH and four daughters.
Frances Jane, Phoebe Harriett, Amy Alma, Selina Jane, Edith Gordon, some of whom are married and their married names/details given.
I am wondering whether he married again after the death of SUSAN, to someone named CHARLOTTE as she does not appear to be a daughter. A much younger bride??
He was a wealthy man.
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=54
Sue
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Hi,
A John Hugh GRACIE is buried in Western Australia at Fremantle Anglican Cemetery. He died 21/2/1927 aged 72 which makes his birh date correct for the son of William.
He seems to have married Christina Durkin in 1912 in WA
http://www.justice.wa.gov.au
A Christina W. Gracie married 1927 TO Alfed Stott in WA.
http://www.openwindows.com
Someone with electoral roll access may give you thir further details.
Sue
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:D :D :D We did not have a clue as to where to start looking and you have found so much info so quickly. We will now try to flesh out the bones a bit. William Gracie's will was really interesting it mentions his gold medals from the Tasmania Exhibition so we will now try to find out a bit more about this and his business. Thanks again Kama
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I am wondering whether he married again after the death of SUSAN, to someone named CHARLOTTE as she does not appear to be a daughter. A much younger bride?
Am puzzled by charlotte, she's not mentioned in the will at all,so would guess she's not a daughter.But surely a second wife would benefit in his will !?
Wonder too if any of Wiliam's brothers went to Tasmania. So far can't trace them in Scotland, only his sister seems to have died here.
Brother's of William Gracie
James 1808
Thomas 1809
John 1812
Hugh 1815
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There is a Will listed for the William GRACIE who died in 1891.
GRACIE William 1891 AD960/1/18 495 4176
I am not sure if the reference made by cando is to the same source as the one I am looking at.
You are correct Sue..... I am quoting from Tas Archives website and would imagine it is the original Will...and the Victorian PROV files are Probate files 1892 which include a copy of his Will. The Letters of Admin file has not been digitised. Tasmanian wills were probated in Vic. in that period.
Australian Electoral Rolls
1901, 1906
GRACIE Gertrude Canning Road, East Fremantle Married
GRACIE John Hugh Canning Road East Fremantle Brewer
1930 John Hugh is alone at the above address. Should read 1925...see later post on the thread.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi KAMA,
I agree with you that the CHARLOTTE is a mystery.
Am puzzled by charlotte, she's not mentioned in the will at all,so would guess she's not a daughter.But surely a second wife would benefit in his will !?
I also would have thought that even if she were neither wife nor daughter but an unmarried sister of William's, she would have been mentioned in his Will.
Cando the electoral information from the West is interesting.
It is hard to believe he is not the right man given his birth date and name, but BREWER? ???
HE was a GRAZIER of BALINGHUP, Vic. in his father's Will
I can find no further mention of Gertrude in any of the usual places..no marriage, death, burial.
Only Christine who seemed to come later.
ADDING Buried with JOHN HUGH at Fremantle Anglican Cemetery is Ethel Grace CHRISTINA GRACIE. Same exact location. She was aged 65 on 23/11/1936 of South Perth.
MMmmm.....
Sue
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Sue I think there is something about brewers ?certs and John Hugh....mentioned in the Will. I really only read it quickly and that website is sssssoooooo slow I really haven't time to download the Probate file again.
I had already searched the Vic Indexes...no marriage for a John Hugh there.
I note Wm's Will appeared to be signed Nov 1891...on his death bed?
Is there a Divorce Index in WA?
In a bit of a rush today...work :(
Cheers
Cando
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Hi cando
Is there a Divorce Index in WA?
Not that I have come across :(
Missed the bit about brewers liscence. I will have the download in yesterday's history. I'll look.
A mistranscription of Christina to Gertrude is a pretty big leap isn't it ???
I note Wm's Will appeared to be signed Nov 1891...on his death bed?
I thought that. He died December But you know, since the Wills came online for reading, I am really noticing the proximity of Will -writing date to Death date. It was very commonly within months. It looks as if they did it [ or were persuaded to!!] when they appeared terminally ill.
In one of my cases, the signature looks decidedly unnatural and the next door neightbours had been hauled in to witness it. The death was within a couple of weeks of the signing.
I am seeing some very shakey signatures indeed.
Sue
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Mmm...
Just had another look at our dates.
A John Hugh GRACIE is buried in Western Australia at Fremantle Anglican Cemetery. He died 21/2/1927 aged 72 which makes his birh date correct for the son of William. Sue
1930 John Hugh is alone at the above address. cando
Is this merely a failure to remove his name from the roll?
Or something else?
Also if he is buried with a woman whose name includes CHRISTINA Gracie , who is this marrying and changing name to STOTT?
A Christina W. Gracie married 1927 TO Alfred Stott in WA. Sue
Sue
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Sue.. :-[ :-[ Double checked my scrawl and it is 1925 not 1930 electoral roll.....so could be the correct John Hugh GRACIE.
Sorry to lead you astray :-[
Cheers
Cando
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Australian Electoral Rolls
1925 WA East Fremantle
GRACIE Christina "Kenginston, Cnr Canning & Windsor Roads, East Fremantle. Married
GRACIE Edward "Glenlossie" Fortescue Street, East Fremantle Newsagent
GRACIE Elizabeth Jane "Glenlossie" Fortescue Street, East Fremantle Home duties
GRACIE John Hugh Canning Road, East Fremantle Brewer
Marriage 1912
GRACIE John H
DURKIN Christina
District Fremantle Reg#214
Cheers
Cando
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The Charlotte buried with William etc is the first wife of John Hugh Gracie
I downloaded and read the will he seemed to be fairly well off probably enough to have paid for the headstone, butwe arestill no closer to parentage of the said William as the death index does not have parents name, it was not a requirement in Tas in that time frame
William Gracie died 21/11/1891
Jenn
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Jenn on the Tas Archives it shows a record for Wm GRACIE b. 1821 and dying 1891...now is the age of the deceased shown on the Tas death index. It was mentioned that the Wm GRACIE this person is seeking was born 1821 Scotland.
Cheers who had better bow out before mistranscribing anymore dates ;)
Cando
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Hi Jenn,
Well that is good to know who Charlotte was :D
KAMA has not told us the name of her William's parents,[ but has not said she does not know either!]
So we have no parental names to compare with each other... either from the findings or from KAMA's knowledge.
Cando, Thanks for the clarification .
Alfred John STOTT of Leederville died in 1944 at is at KARRAKATTA alone. I think.
He enlisted in 1916, b. 1889 and was living at his father's home in Leedervile.
There is no sign of a death or burial for a woman named Christina STOTT.
Just adding for clarification
GRACIE CHRISTINA W PERTH 1065 F 1927 STOTT ALFRED J
Sue
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Cando I would have to agree with you that the death in 1891 of William Grace is no doubt the right one, I had only mention that there was another William Grace in the mix so to speak.
He left 7thousand pounds plus so pretty weelloff for then plus shares in the Bank of Tasmania and his breweing shares.
There is a marriage in 1894 in Tasmania of John Hugh Gracie marrying Gertrude Herring. So I wonder did she died in WA
Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Some of these things have been mentioned up the thread up a bit.
We had not seen the marriage to Gertrude, but she has been found on the electoral roll in WA.
Sue
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Sorry
added Gertrude to explain who she was
Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Would love to know what happened to her.
Maybe she divorced John and went back to Tassie :D
Sue
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From IGI...extracted record
WILLIAM GRACIE
Christening: 22 MAR 1821 Old Luce, Wigtown, Scotland
Father Hugh GRACIE
Mother Janet McFADZEN
Also these extracted records on IGI with parents William and Susan.
PHOEBE HARIOT GRACIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 27 MAY 1858 Chalmers Free Presbyterian, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
WILLIAM HUGH GRACIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 JAN 1852 Chalmers Free Presbyterian, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
WILLIAM WALLACE GRACIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 NOV 1861 Chalmers Free Presbyterian, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
JOHN HUGH GRACIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 19 FEB 1855 Chalmers Free Presbyterian, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
EDITH ALICE GORDON GRACIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 AUG 1871 Chalmers Free Presbyterian, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Added later
FRANCES JEANET GRACIE
Birth 03 FEB 1850 Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Father WILLIAM GRACIE Family
Mother SUSAN ELMER
Cheers
Cando
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Hi cando,
They are good findings.
Wonder why daughters Amy Elmer b. 1865 and Selina Jane Rex [wife of George Woodcock, according to the Will], are not mentioned in the listing.
Maybe Christened eleswhere and not extracted at this time
Sue
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I had found a number of Susan ELMER's births in Suffolk when I searched again and found this submitted record
Susan Ann ELMER
Birth 17 FEB 1828 Barnham, Suffolk, England
Death 13 JUN 1880 Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Marriages
Spouse William Gracie
Marriage 23 FEB 1849 Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
This one is extracted
SUSAN ELMER
Birth 17 FEB 1828
Christening: 24 FEB 1828 Barnham, Suffolk, England
Father John ELMER
Mother Frances KING
Sue I think the other GRACIE baptisms may have been on a different batch number...I was actually only searching for John Hugh's baptism record.
Jenn can you have a look on your Tasmanian disc....did Gertrude die in that State?
Cheers
Cando
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I only have the index to 1899 and had checked for deaths on that.
Jenn
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Jenn....Thought you would have...but just keeping you on your toes ;D ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Hi,
This little blank kind of entry appers only once in the Perth Post Office Directory.
It is in 1910.
GRACIE, __, Leake Street Victoria Park.
Consistently over the preceeding and following years an entry for
J. H. GRACIE... reads..... Riverside Rd. Richmond.
Just wondered if it was Gertrude after a split??
Imagination running wild do you think? :P
Sue
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There is no doubt that Selina is the daughter of William Gracie, thanks to his will. However she would have been born about 1843, making her mother only 15, and her parents didn't marry until 1849. The next child was born in 1850.Although all this is possile I am wondering if Selina was born to a different mother.
Edith Alice Gordon Gracie arrived in New Orleans 28-10-1913 from Panama with a CE Graham.
Her last residence was USA......how interesting !!!!
William Gracie's parents are indeed Hugh Gracie and Janet MacFadzean. The headstone he erected in Scotland is quite grand so have always assumed he was a wealthy man. A further connection is two of his sons have Hugh as a middle name and one daughter has Janet as a middle name, after his parents.
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There is this submitted record on IGI.
Selina Jane Gracie
Birth 1843
Marriages:
Spouse: George Woodcock REX Family
Marriage:
16 MAR 1864 Hobart Town, Tasmania, Australia
Cando
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IS it possible she was born in Scotland prior to him coming out to Australia
JEnn
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Have the following Queenborough Cemetery Records for GRACIE
1. Charlotte - 42 yrs Death/or Burial date: 28/5/1893 - Spouse: John Hugh
2. Susan - 52 yrs 13/6/1880 William
3. William - 70 yrs 21/11/1891 Susan
Hobart Mercury Newspaper - B, D & M.
John Hugh Gracie -m- Charlotte Mitchell 25/3/1876 (Newspaper: 30/3/1876)
John Hugh Gracie -m - Gertrude Herring 5/3/1894 (Newspaper: 8/3/1894)
Amy Elmer Gracie -m- Albert James Lea Holt 26/11/1887 (26/11/1887)
Frances Janet Gracie -m- George Bishop 16/5/1876 (22/5/1876)
Phoebe Harriet Gracie -m- William Robertson 8/7/1884 (11/7/1884)
Selina Jane Gracie (eld. d/o William) -m- George Woodcock Rex (23/3/1864 _St David's Hobart).
Deaths:
Charlotte Gracie died 28/5/1893 (Mercury: 29/5/1893) (Charlotte lived at 7 Garden Cresent at the time of her death and she was born in Tasmania * ref from Clarke & Sons, Funeral Directors 1885-1907 Records)
Susan Gracie died 13/6/1880 (14/6/1880)
William Gracie died 21/11/1891 (23/11/1891)
William Wallace Gracie died 1/6/1870 (2/6/1870)
Walch's Tasmanian Alamanacs - also known as "The Red Book"
1892 - William Gracie, formerly proprietor of the Artillery Brewery. -died 21/11/1891 (Place of Death: Oban, Sandy Bay ** Oban was probably the name of their house**).
Hope this may help you!!
Regards
Webby :D
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Just to add a little more. At Cornelian Bay Cemetery here in Hobart there is a listing for 8 Rex people at Church of England, A No.100. There are headstones for them all.
Selina Jane, George and Oswald Vivian and Hilda Ruth Rex are listed on one head stone, then John Henry Rex seems to be on his own, Sarah Jane Grey, Rita Selina Rex and Muriel Vera Rex are listed on the next grave.
Webby