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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Wilbs on Monday 02 February 09 00:07 GMT (UK)
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Thomas Allman married Phoebe Foster in 1891 in Frodsham and later moved to Ellesmere Port. They had 10 children that we can trace. Nine of the names are remembered/recognised by current family members, but no one remembers Elizabeth born 1907.
However, there is talk of a possible eleventh child called Alice. It seems that Alice was mentally handicapped and "sent away to a home".
There is a possibility that Elizabeth and Alice are the same person. The family re-used the same names in every generation, so to identify individuals they often used middle names or nicknames.
If Alice had been "sent away" where would she have gone? What homes were available in the 1890s - 1920s around the Cheshire area to take such children? Is there a record available of the inmates?
A search of the 1911 census doesn't immediately identify Alice but it shows a Thomas Allman (Alice's father) as being at the St Martins Fields Infirmary Chester on census night. Again. we don't know if he was a patient or visiting someone.
Thank you for any assistance.
Wilbs.
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Hi Wilbs,
This is an index of asylums, but it may not be what you are looking for:
http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/4_13_Ta.htm#Cheshire%20and%20Lancashire
It might be worth doing a search on googlebooks to see if that brings anything up.
Good luck.
Paulene :)
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Thank you Paulene
I found this site and it gives some very good information about the facilities themselves and details of the staff. Unfortunately, probably something to do with "privacy", it doesn't give much information on the patients.
The site also commented that a number of Workhouses had mental facilities. Our family was not rich by any means but seemed to have continuous employment so I'm assuming that they could afford to pay for Alice's care. I've always understood that the Workhouses were for destitute persons, but please correct me if I'm in error.
I found a couple of hospitals on 1901 census but again, it only give the patients initials.
As a matter of interest, would a person's mental capacity be listed on a death certificate? I have a death certificate for a great grandmother and the cause of death is listed as dementia. To my understanding, dementia is not fatal, but rather a symptom of old age. Would the doctors of the day classify Alice's mental retardation as a cause of death? (Assuming, of course that I can find the currently ficticious Alice and find her death)
Thank you
Wilbs
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Hi Wilbs,
Just passing this on to you while I look for the answers (still learning like you) to the other questions you raised - all interesting ones!
I found one of my ancestors who was classified on the census as imbecile from birth (at least I think that's what it says). On all the other census transcripts nothing is declared.
After her parent's death she is a boarder, living on own means with a family living in Dudley Port (area where she lived) and on the 1901 census she has a nurse living with her. (Hannah Robinson b. 1841 Tipton - parents George and Sarah). Her father was a miner, and Sarah's family were iron moulders/furnace managers.
You've now prompted me to find out a little more about Hannah, and order her death certificate, Wilbs.
Anyway, here is the site:
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm#COL7
Back soon.
Paulene :)
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Hi Wilbs,
Well I had a quick read of some of Simon Fowler's book 'Workhouse' and he says that workhouses did take "lunatics and simpletons" (words in book) and that some had specific parts for lunatic inmates.
He says:
"Almost every workhouse had a number of mentally ill and mentally disabled paupers amongst the inmates, who were, for the most part, harmless both to themselves and to their fellows."
It sounds as if they were allowed to stay, unless they became too violent, in which case they were admitted to the local county asylum. They were treated more or less the same as other inmates, and expected to work.
I haven't yet found out about whether they had to be paupers, but will be back when I have found some more information, Wilbs.
Bye for now,
Paulene :)
P.S. I did find details of the following book on amazon, which looks intersting - it also allows you to search the contents and some of the pages:
http://www.amazon.ca/Mental-Disability-Victorian-England-Earlswood/dp/0199246394
Plus, a free one on google books:
The Workhouse System, 1834-1929 By M. A. Crowther
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Hi again,
Little bit in this book (googe books) re eligibility for workhouse admission and outdoor relief, with regard to New Poor Law. See pages 130 and 131.
Family Ties in Victorian England By Claudia Nelson
Still looking to see what alternatives were - obviously care from the family(if they could manage it), nursing at home (like my ancestor, Hannah), but I'm sure there probably were homes, but haven't managed to find anything specific yet, Wilbs.
Interesting topic!
Paulene :)
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Hi Wilbs,
Well, after much searching about childrens homes, etc I found this list.
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/info.php?p=13
If you look at the year 1903 you will see that a new branch opened in Frodsham. What type of child they admitted I am not sure, but if you click on the links it says that records are available from 1869:
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/links.php
If she didn't go there, I can only suggest contacting the local studies library in the area, as they might know of any other homes which were in the area at that time.
As far as asylum and workhouse records are concerned - there is a 100 year confidentiality rule (that is why sensitive information is not shown yet on the 1911 census). However, I believe that if you write to ask permission, stating your family connection, then you can probably get access to look at these records. They are likely to be in the local archives office, and should come up on an National Archives search.
Just in case you haven't got this:
http://www.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/ches/cheshire_workhouses.htm
Details of asylum records will be on the asylums site you have already found.
Good luck - hope you find her. I'll be interested to know if you do!
Paulene :)
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Paulene, you are a star. You have given me so much information and reading material, that I almost don't know where to start.
I love that the Frodsham home is for "delicate and affected children" and not for "imbeciles" as some other publications call these much loved children.
A family member has also pointed me inthe direction of a local society here in Melbourne, Australia and I'm hoping htat they can also assist me in my quest.
Once again, thank you for all your help and I'll certainly be back in touch if I can find this elusive child.
Wilbs
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Hi, Wilbs, the following may prove to be of some help. Frodsham History Society email contact:
frodsham@cheshirehistory.org.uk
There was also a National Childrens Home - Newton Hall in Frodsham whether children with learning disabilities were also offered places here I am not sure, but the frodsham experts as above would probably be able to help. Googling Newton Hall Frodsham also brings up some information on this home.
I am also aware of two facilities for children with learning disability or as then labelled imbeciles or mentally subnormal - which took children from all over the North West.
Mary Dendy Hospital, Warford near Alderley Edge
and
Cranage Hall Hospital
The Cheshire Record and Archive Service of Cheshire County Council may be able to help. Just google Cheshire County Council and you will find the email address.
Good Hunting
Kathb
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Hi again,
Glad more information is coming through - wonderful, Kath! :)
I'm more confused than ever about my Hannah now - my relative thinks the census form says "invalid from birth". However, I thought they were told to use the criteria shown on the form - totally confused now! I even rang the NA to see what they thought - he wasn't sure either, but said he thought it was "imbecile from birth".
I think I've found her death registration in 1916, so she should be on the 1911, but isn't! Her name does not appear at all. The gentleman said that if the information was sensitive it wouldn't be on the 1911 site, and would not appear before 2012 - I had hoped some information like the name or initials at least would be there. And, to add more confusion the adddress she was at, in 1901, isn't there either.
If either of you wish to give an opinion she is:
Hannah Robinson born 1841/2 Tipton, Staffordshire
Parents Sarah and George
Address on 1881 census: 1 Coneygree Road, Tipton.
I would be very grateful.
Confused and bewildered :-\ ;)
Paulene :)
P.S. So glad the information was useful. Look forward to hearing that you've found her.
ADDED: Found her on the 1911 - I tried again just using year of birth and Staffordhire only. Poor Hannah was in the Dudley Union Workhouse, and, as all the sensitive information is blocked out I shall not be able to view it until 2012.
Unless the death certificate tells a story!
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Hi, Wilbs, have a look at this site it has photo's and some very interesting information on Dudley Workhouse.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Dudley/Dudley.shtml
Regards
Kathb
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Thank you once again Paulene and Kath and I'm sorry to have taken so long to acknowledge your wonderful contributions. I will get in touch with all the societies that you have mentioned and let you know the outcomes as soon as I hear something.
It may be a couple of weeks before I recommence my search. You may have seen the terrible bushfires here in Victoria, Australia and as much as I enjoy the challenge of finding missing past family members, current family and friends take priority at a time like this.
Best wishes
Wilbs
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Hi Wilbs.
No worries - you're quite right; that has to be your priority at the moment.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you all. I hope you find them all safe.
Take care,
Paulene :)
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Hi, Wilbs, take care of yourself and your family. We are all thinking of everyone in Victoria and pray that you remain safe.
I looked on the 1901 census and noted that there was a Betsey in the family - this is usually a shortened form of Elizabeth so there may also be an Alice, although at the moment I cannot find a birth for her on Cheshire bmd. Have you looked at the GRO indexes? The other places Alice may have been admitted to are Clatterbridge Hospital (Wirral Union Workhouse) or more likely if they were in Ellesmere Port to Manor Hospital, Moston Hospital or the Deva Hospital (Cheshire County Mental Hospital). I have a book on the history of the Deva Hospital and will look at it for some details in the next week or so - bit busy at the moment.
Take Care
Regards
Kathb
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Hi Kath
Yes, we have both a Betsy born 1897 and an Elizabeth born 1906. In 1921 "Betty" married James Gilbert Jones and based on ages we concluded that "Betty" was Betsy. Betty & James went on to run a bed & breakfast in Blackpool, so we rulled her out of the equation.
In the family we also have four more daughters - Mary (known as Polly 1895), Ida (1899) Sarah (1904) and Ada (1911-1949).
Phoebe, their mother was born in 1873 so would have been 44 when Ada the youngest child was born. At that age she would certainly have carried a higher risk of having a mentally handicapped child.
However, in 1934 Ada married Robert Sandland so I doubt that she was "Alice". Sarah also married and was discounted. Mary's nick name was Polly, so also crossed off the list, which left us with Ida (1899) and Elizabeth (1906)
My problem is that all the facilities you and Paulene have kindly identified all require the official name and date of birth, as well as proof that I'm related to this lady. I think my only recourse is to put "Alice" on hold and move on with the rest of the family.
Oh, I how I hate nicknames - but that's probably another topic I need to start.
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just seen this post and though proberly not relevant I am looking for a john allman born in Cheshire.we think his mother was phoebe and his dad james but he leaves home on his mothers death sometime between 1845 and 1850 and arrives in Michigan America.just wondered in your searchings have you come across him??
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Hi (perhaps very distant cousin) cathayb
I haven't come across that particular branch of the Allman family before, but that's not to say that John is not one of ours. I think the Allmans took on the task of single-handily populating the whole of Cheshire, using as few Christian names as possible.
It looks like Phoebe Allman died aged 32 in 1848 in Altrincham, Trafford so John would have been very young when he went to the States. A search of (free) www.cheshirebmd.org.uk gives 9 Allman children born in Trafford from 1837-1848. There is one John, with birth certificate number ALT/3/81 who may be yours. You can order this certificate from the site by clicking the reference number and following the link. I've ordered several certificates from this site before without problems and it's a lot cheaper than going via the paying sites.
The certificate should give you Phoebe's maiden name as well as confirming his father and enable you to search for the rest of the family.
There's another James, Phoebe & John Alman family in Congleton listed on the familysearch site, but I can't find any record of Phoebe's death in your time span in that area so this family may be plan B if the Trafford one doesn't give results.
Good hunting!