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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: hardsocks on Tuesday 03 March 09 18:58 GMT (UK)
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I am tracing my family tree and came across my uncle who died of his wounds in 1944.Is there any old members of the above regiment remember him. He was rifleman Joseph Greer 1st bn london irish rifes,he was 33 when he died
on the 10 june 1944, he lived in snugville street belfast. I would like to find out more about him.
hardsocks
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London Irish are properly 18th bn London Regt...
If you want the old boys...Here would be a place to start...
http://www.londonirishrifles.com/
Here is where the 1st bn were....
1939.09 1st Battalion, London Irish Rifles, The Royal Ulster Rifles
mobilised in London
1939 UK 1 Lon Bde, 1 Lon Div
1940.11.04 UK 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1942.08.24 at sea
1942.11.05 Iraq 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1943.04.03 Palestine[in transit]
1943.04.08 Egypt 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1943.05.09 Palestine 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1943.06.15 Egypt 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1943.07.08 at sea
1943.07.13 Sicily 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1943.10.10 Italy 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1944.03.29 at sea
1944.04.03 Egypt 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1944.07.11 at sea
1944.07.17 Italy 168 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1944.09.23 Italy 167 Bde, 56 Inf Div
1945.05 Italy
1945.08 placed in suspended animation at Trieste
The museum details are here...
London Irish Rifles Museum
Connaught House,
Flodden Road, Camberwell,
London,
SE5 9LL
Tel: 020 7820 4040
Fax: 020 7820 4041
Email:
museum@londonirishrifles.com
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thanks for that scrimnet i will contact the london irish and try to find out more on my uncle.
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Hello, I'm just recently registered on this site because I would like to know more from anybody who has a story to share about soldiers of the London Irish Rifles, WW2. I am researching the whereabouts of one Rifleman Lawrence A. Armitage, age 19 in 1943 who was in Italy after Tunis. His gravesite is not recorded with the CWGC nor can the LIR Museum give me the how's and where's of his death, They can only guess he was MIA or killed as a deserter, which I don't believe in this case. His serial number was: 4694638 and he served with "D" Coy. No. 4 Bn and also 9 Sec. 15 Plt. "G" Coy. 2nd Bn. If there is any old soldierr out there or relative or person in the know, I would like to hear from you. Thank you.
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Have you applied to MOD for his service record? That may throw up some light.
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
£30.00 to get them
Ady :)
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His service number shows he was drafted into the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.
Not unusual to be drafted, trained by a Regt and then posted elsewhere, but thought I would mention it in case you werent aware.
Both 2 & 4 battalions of the London Regt were Royal Fusiliers, not Rifles, so he should be Fusilier Armitage? The 18th Bn were were the London Irish Rifles.
In WW2 the 18th were further formed into 2 Battalions ( 1 & 2 ) , both of whom served in Italy - again, I mention this in case your 4 Bn is a typo and should read 2 Bn.
I tend to agree that his service history will help you immensely, although you do seem to have specific units for him - where was the original info from?
I think MIA is most likely, being killed as a deserter? Who by? The British Army didnt execute deserters in WW2, so that seems a bit of a leap in logic.
It may also seem a daft question - but how do you know he died during the war? I've checked both cwgc and geoffs, not a trace of him on either.
Regards
Pete
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Hi Pete:
All that you say is highly interesting and most probably true. I am especially intigued that you could determine a soldier's regiment from his service number. Do tell the secret. However, in this case, I have photo copies of letters found in Italy in the 60's addressed to a soldier of the London Irish Rifles with all those numerical and lettered references - how could they be wrong?? I refer you to an article I was involved in at YEP and I would appreciate very much your getting back to me after you have read it and digested the information: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/features/Letters-from-the-frontline-.6141348.jp
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Hello mmm45,
Thank you for your suggestion. The price is a little steep, I think. I received my Dad's service information from Canada Archives without paying a cent; I think as a service to the country and service to theses Vets and their great sacrifices, information requested because of legitimate interest and intent should be released free of charge. Or at least should cost a very low token sum. M.
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okay, that helps immensely.
The reference to 4 Bn. is to the 4th Bn of the Infantry Recruit Training Unit - NOT the 4th Bn LIR.
The later reference to the 2 Bn. LIR is after he was posted to them - so for his movements we will have to concentrate on the 2/18 Bn LIR.
Give me a little time to study the Yorkshire Post article again, and I will come back to you for more info.
It would be an awful lot easier if we had his service history, at the very least we would know if he survived the war (I suspect he did).
Pete
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Hi Pete,
Here is the recent reply of July 26, 2010 from the LIR Regimental Association regarding Rifleman L.A. Armitage. It is self-explanatory, but if what you say is correct then what Capt. Wilkinson says perhaps does not apply. It is all very confusing with being drafted into one, attached to another, etc.etc. As he was very young, perhaps there is some truth to what the Assoc. says after all. Let me know if the attachment comes through all right. I still do not know if he came home from the war as I can't find him period. But from another Forum I belong to, one fellow sent me information with various matimonial annotations for a Lawrence Armitage after the war. But again, a highly expensive proposal to trace each and every one.
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Just a thought. If his own regiment doesn' t have his service records, would MOD have them??? In other words, would there be any point to paying the £30 to have his service records traced if we already know they are not available?? Or unless his original regiment was another and NOT the London Irish Rifles??
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I am of the opinion that the only way to answer the question of what happened to him is to obtain his Service History.
It will show one of several things - he survived the war & was released from service, he was killed in service (for which his dog tags would have been recovered), or he was missing presumed dead.
Talk of desertion, criminal gangs etc, is at this stage pure speculation. Consider the letters he received- does this sound like a young man who simply deserted, he had people waiting for him at home.
His service history shows he was drafted to the KOYLI - it is entirely possible this was to their young soldiers battalion, but again, we can only find that from his service history.
I still see nothing to indicate that he didnt survive the war and go on to lead a civilian life, it is a great irony of researching soldiers that finding dead ones is very easy, finding the survivors is very hard indeed - I believe at this stage that we are looking for a man who survived the war, which is a difficult task.
To clear up sarmats last post, the mod hold service records, not the regiments - as his service number and name are known then there will be a record for him - this is because men did move around and the mod were the central record holder.
It is possible that we can locate a copy of the Bn war diary, if so we can see what they were doing and what mentions there are of casualties - it would specifically mention a desertion if one was known - but if he was shown in the war diary as having been killed then he would be on the cwgc site.
Will do a little more digging and see what comes to the surface.
Pete
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Could you let me know the latest date of any of the letters.
We can work out from the war diary when he was in the village the letters were found in, but at the moment I need to find a copy of the diary.
Pete
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Could he have been serving with the Canadians?
2nd Battalion Irish Regiment of Canada fought in Italy ....CMF is that not Canadian Military Forces??? Just a thought?
Ady :)
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Hi Ady,
I think the unit details are for LIR, the letter from the assoc. shows then as being part of 47th Div. I will check once I can get a war diary.
Pete
edit. Found the following piece of info:
The 2nd Bn served with the 38th Irish Bde in Tunisia and then again 38th Bde with the 78th Div in Italy where it fought at Cassino. During WW2 the London irish suffered over 700 kia.
(Cassino was Jan - May 1944.)
Wiki shows the make up of 78th Div:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78th_Infantry_Division_%28United_Kingdom%29
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Yes forget that red herring.......... read the YEP piece wrong!!!! its 3 different addresses
CMF in ww2 is "Central Mediterranean Force!"
Ady
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Hi, I've just come back on and read both your posts. I'll get onto the information in the morning (Italian time) that you have asked for. I can see that the logical thing to do is to get his service records, otherwise we will get nowhere. I'll go to the site that mmm45 mentioned and look into the procedure. Thanks for this great amount of input. I was stymied up to this point but now feel more positive.
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Taken from web-site for requesting service records: "The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is the custodian of the Records of Service of Service personnel until they are opened to general public access at The National Archives. Subject to the payment of a search fee of £30 per record and provision of a death certificate (except where death was in service), certain information can be provided from these records on request under the MODs publication scheme."
I don't have the knowledge of his death so how can I proceed???
Dates of letters from earliest to latest:
July 30/43 - From his sister W. (Winifred) Armitage, addressed to: Rifleman Armitage L.A. - No. 4694638, "D" Coy. No. 4. Batt. - I.R.T.D. British North - African Forces
Aug. 17/43 - From girl friend Cpl. Mary Bailie (herself with a rank and service number: W/91864), addressed to: RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE L.A. 4694638 - D doy. 4th BATT. I.R.T.D. - BRITISH NORTH AFRICAN - FORCES
Aug. 23/43 - From girl friend Cpl. Mary Bailie, addressed to: RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE LA. 4694638, then the following: D COY. 4 BATT. I.R.T.D. written in the sender's own hand but crossed out with a line through it (looks to have been done by the Post Person, obviously a military man/censorist??) and on the last 2 lineS: BRITISH NORTH AFRICAN - FORCES. In barely leggible script the following is written in the new hand to the side of the address: 78 Div 15 Coy and something else but it is not leggible in the photocopy; I would have to see the original which is in the hands of my Italian friend.
Sept. 1/43 - From his mother, Mrs. J. Armitage [Janet Armitage (nče Scarth)], addressed to: 4694638 - Rifleman Armitage, L.A. - "D" Coy, No.4 Batt. - I.R.T.D. - B.N.A.F. (nothing cancelled out)
Sept. 4/43 - From his girl friend Connie Bithell, addressed to: Rifleman Armitage, L.A. 4694638 - "C" Coy: 4th Battalion, - No. 1 (I'm not too sure about this No. 1 - it's not written well) I.R.T.D. - British North African Forces. Nothing is cancelled out but "78 DIV" is written to the side.
Oct. 31/43 - From his mother, addressed to: 4694638, Rifleman Armitage L.A. - 9 Sec. 15 Plt G. Coy - 2nd L.I. Rifles, - C.M.F.
Nov. 10/43 - From Connie, addressed to: RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE L.A. - 4694638, - 9 SEC: 15 PLT: "G" COY: - 2nd BATT: - L.I.R. - C.M.F.
Nov. 31/43 - From Connie, addressed to: RIFLEMAN ARMITAGE, L. A. 4694638 - "G" COY: 2nd BATT: - LONDON IRISH RIFLES - C.M.F.
In transcribing these addresses, I have remained faithful to the sender's addressing style and punctuation. The use of a dash (-) is my own to separate for you the lines of the address.
Sarmat
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Thanks,
I'm sure we'll find that he was posted to the LIR end August time, that would explain the changes to the letter address, certainly the changes fit in with parts of his later unit details ie 15, 78Div etc.
I'm struggling to find anyone with a copy of the 2/18 war diary, will keep looking.
Pete
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Hi Pete and mmm45 , Any news on the battlefront? I know it isn't even a week since your last post but I'm just curious if you have discovered anything else. I'm trying to see if I can find an "in" to get his service records but the pickings look slim. I will try one more source. If you can post some news even just to say you are still interested, that's fine. Thanks for all your information up to now.
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Hi
Have tried to find a copy of the Bn war diary, but no luck i'm afraid.
The only way to get a copy is to go to the National Archive at Kew, but even ignoring the practicality there is a question as to what it will reveal, If we could get a copy easy its worth checking, but I dont think its going to be worth the effort.
Have you looked at the addresses at all?
Pete
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In what sense do you mean - the addresses - of the people who wrote to this soldier? Yes, most definitely, but this too has uncovered nothing so far. I have joined many other forums to spread the word about these individuals but so far no replies. I am disappointed but have not thrown in the towel yet - not by a long shot. I need to find one good lead, whether military or civy, and be on my way to bring closure to Laurie's whereabouts. I ask you to keep your ears and eyes open for anything you might find and to let me know at this forum. Thanks again. M.
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If he was sent to G company, that would put him in the 38th (Irish) Brigade of the 78th Infantry Division.
The 78th fought at many horrid places including taking part in the 2nd battle for Cassino (where the fought at Castleforte).
G company was one of the line rifle companies meaning they were used how Battalion HQ saw fit. Officers did try to vary which company led assaults etc to try an even out any potential casualties. Despite this casualties were high and it was not unusual for men to cmae and go very quickly which would explain why the records the LIR have on their soldiers are sparse at best.
I must mention that I have some copies of the war diary but probably not for 43 - i'll check anyway. It is also worth mentioning that war diaries won't mention ORs (Other Ranks - i.e. not officers) as they weren't militarily important to the diary unless they were being deocrated or had done something which warranted mention. A result of this is that you probably won't find him mentioned by name at all.
Please PM me if you think I can help.
Best wishes,
Tom
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Hi Tom, Let me know if the message I sent a minute ago arrived. If not, I will write you again. In the meantime, thank you for this very interesting information.
Martha
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I've not received anything yet... :)
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Hi Tom,
I thank you for your new and interesting information on the London Irish Rifles, company "G". My first message contained an attachment, a newspaper article about this particular soldier but a few minutes later, a message came back saying, the attachment was too big. I'll try again in a separate email. To make a long story short, I tracked down the family of this soldier, who had died in 1986, so I missed out on meeting him. However, the family came to Italy to retrieve the lost letters of their father. I live in Italy!!
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Hi Tom,
The site won't let me send it cause it's too big. Do you want to send me your email address? I'm quite harmless! I'm: *
Cheers,
Martha
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does any one have an e mail address for the L.I.Rs.Assn?thank you. arnie
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Thanks,
I'm sure we'll find that he was posted to the LIR end August time, that would explain the changes to the letter address, certainly the changes fit in with parts of his later unit details ie 15, 78Div etc.
I'm struggling to find anyone with a copy of the 2/18 war diary, will keep looking.
Pete
hi peter im interested in the 2nd LIR and found this web hope this is right bugle boy just checked the web after Iposted sorry was the wrong web
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http://www.irishbrigade.co.uk/pages/original-war-diaries---1942-to-1945/war-diaries-of-2-london-irish-rifles/war-diaries-of-2-london-irish-rifles---1944/january-1944-transcript.php hope this works peter bugle boy
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Lawrence died in 2006 Leeds area
Hello, I'm just recently registered on this site because I would like to know more from anybody who has a story to share about soldiers of the London Irish Rifles, WW2. I am researching the whereabouts of one Rifleman Lawrence A. Armitage, age 19 in 1943 who was in Italy after Tunis. His gravesite is not recorded with the CWGC nor can the LIR Museum give me the how's and where's of his death, They can only guess he was MIA or killed as a deserter, which I don't believe in this case. His serial number was: 4694638 and he served with "D" Coy. No. 4 Bn and also 9 Sec. 15 Plt. "G" Coy. 2nd Bn. If there is any old soldierr out there or relative or person in the know, I would like to hear from you. Thank you.