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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: *sparkle* on Thursday 12 March 09 15:09 GMT (UK)
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I have been struggling on with this one for a while now.
My GGG Granny is Elizabeth Brown b. abt 1820, d. 1865. She married James Dalziel, and had several children, two of which were to different fathers; George Ireland and Margaret Kirkpatrick.
I'm trying to trace Elizabeth's birth and parents.
There is only one Dunscore birth that is a possible: 6 Nov 1815 for an Elizabeth Crichton Brown, parents Thomas Brown and Janet Grierson.
However on Elizabeth's marriage certificate and death certificate it says George Brown and Esther McLean are her parents. Her brother James Brown's death certificate confirms this fact too.
I cannot find anything on George Brown or Esther McLean or Elizabeth's birth. So I have slammed into a brick wall
Can anyone help?
I wonder if the Dunscore MIs have an answer? Does anyone have them? No worries if not as I'll just get them from the DGFHS.
Thanks!
Tx
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Hello
They don't appear to show on the IGI .
In Dumfriesshire, no sign of Esther on the 1841 census at www.freecen.org.uk. Of the George Browns - assuming that he'd be about at leat 40 - none has a wife called Esther......
No sign of Esther dying after 1855 on SP.
On the freecen site for 1841 there are 8 Margaret Browns in Dumfriessshire. What does her marriage cert say - assuming she married after 1855 regarding fathers occupation - or on James death cert.
Sorry.... Good luck with your search. Regards, Steve :O)
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Hi sparkle
I'm afraid that you have come across one of the main problems of the pre-1855 records in Scotland, in that, depending on the era, something between 30 and 60% of BMDs don't appear in the surviving parish records (OPR).
There's a chance that the birth may be found in secession church records at National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh.
Given that you know from Elizabeth's statutory marriage certificate and death certificate that her parents were George Brown and Esther McLean, never mind the confirmation via her brother's death register entry, then you can certainly rely on that info being correct.
MIs is certainly one possibility, but have you had a look at the 1841 census?
You'd need to take advice from the Ewart Library in Dumfries as to the possibility of the various possible newspaper reports, - simple death notice, reports of the funeral (on a good day there can be a list of the principal mourners along with their relation to the deceased) and an obituary.
wkr
Wullie
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Thanks kirkmichael and piglet :)
I had looked on the 1841 and 1851 census records, and there is nothing for Esther or George Brown. It looks as though they both died before 1855.
George Brown is listed as a weaver on Elizabeth's marriage certificate.
I'm unlikely to be able to get to the NAS; time to persuade my sister to get involved I think!
Wullie- good point about the Ewart. I'm up in Dumfries at the end of next month, so will add them onto my list of people to look for and keep my fingers crossed that there may be a death notice or better.
Regards
Tracey
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Hi Tracey
Thanks kirkmichael and piglet :)
I had looked on the 1841 and 1851 census records, and there is nothing for Esther or George Brown. It looks as though they both died before 1855.
George Brown is listed as a weaver on Elizabeth's marriage certificate.
I'm unlikely to be able to get to the NAS; time to persuade my sister to get involved I think!
Before you do and she does, have a look at the First and Second Statistical Accounts, - see http://edina.ac.uk/stat-acc-scot/reading/intro.shtml, - as the Established Church of Scotland minister who supplied the info most often refers to any secession churches in the parish.
Don't limit your reading to Dunscore but look also at the neighbouring parishes, as folk were known to be happy to travel quite a way to a church of their preferred 'flavour' !
Then have a look at the on-line catalogue for NAS to see if they hold records of any such secession churches. I'm unsure as to whether NAS have yet achieved their objective of fully listing not just the secession records in their holdings but also the location of all other known holdings, - it's quite possible that The Ewart may have some.
Wullie- good point about the Ewart. I'm up in Dumfries at the end of next month, so will add them onto my list of people to look for and keep my fingers crossed that there may be a death notice or better.
Well worth an email to them in advance as they may be able to do some preparation work. I long ago lost track of where things are these days regarding locally produced indexes of newspapers. No promises but I have a vague memory that the Dumfries & Galloway FHS may have done something along these lines. A look at their website on http://www.dgfhs.org.uk/ , and/or an email to them could be worthwhile, I'd suggest.
Fingers duly crossed !
Wullie
Regards
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Hi there,
Just picked up this thread. I have the MI's for Dunscore (both village and old graveyard) but no trace in either of your George and Esther. However I also have the OPR deaths which show death of Esther Brown (McLaren), widow of George in Feb. 1837. Also death of a George Brown at Moorhall in 1824 and another George, farm servant, Farmerfield Killyleoch May 16th 1833. Sounds as though they may be who you are looking for although the maiden name of Esther is slightly different it could be a transcription error. Maybe a look at the originals would help. The Family History Centre has a fiche of the originals (which I have been through for McGinleys!!- they don't show in the burials either - too poor for a stone). If I can help let me know.
Morag
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Morag,
That is a massive help!! And makes sense that they both died before 1841. Will have a look at the originals when I'm on the right side of the border next month. Thanks!
Tracey
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The OPR Index and images are on test at the moment, so should hopefully come on line at ScotlandsPeople in the near future.
Info in these OPR entries, however, tends to be very sparse, witness the content for the three entries above.
Elizabeth Brown wife of George Brown Moorhall died [blank where date is for some other entries]
In 1824 were interred
.....................
George Brown in Moorhall
.....................
George Brown Farm Servant at Farmerfield of Killyleoch [buried] 16May1833
All entries in Dunscore OPR.
Where did the info come from on Esther's maiden surname?
Wullie
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Hi Wullie,
I have the transcribed OPR Deaths for Dunscore which were complied by members of the Family History Centre - supposedly transcribed and checked by two different members so not sure where Esther's maiden name came from. She is indexed under both names. If her maiden name is not shown on the originals then I don't know what has happened?!
Morag
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Hi Wullie,
I have the transcribed OPR Deaths for Dunscore which were complied by members of the Family History Centre - supposedly transcribed and checked by two different members so not sure where Esther's maiden name came from. She is indexed under both names. If her maiden name is not shown on the originals then I don't know what has happened?!
Morag
Hi Morag
Whoops....
The OPR death entry should have read ..................
Elspeth Maclaren wife of George Brown Moorhall died [blank where date is for some other entries]
Wullie
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Had a look on 1841 census for Elizabeth Brown. There is only 1 entry in Dunscore - could this be her as follows
Edgarton, Parish of Dunscore
Household of Robert Swan, Farmer.
Brown Elizabeth 15 years, Agricultural Labourer, born Dumfriesshire.
As ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 - although she was nearly 20 it would show her as 15.
I'm afraid there isn't any other info. which could help in your search.
Morag
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I have just gone through the marriage/ death certificates again, and there is conflicting names for Esther;
James (Elizabeth's brother) death certificate says McLean: (was signed by his brother William)
Elizabeth's death certificate says McLaurin:
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And Elizabeth's marriage certificate says McLaren!
So I am convinced that I am now wrong and it is McLaren.
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I've lost a post somewhere...
Anyway, thanks again to Wullie and Morag :) Its just what I need. Thank you!
I was looking into William (brother of Elizabeth and James)
I believe he married Margaret Gibson in 1833 in Tynron. I can find him in the C1841, C1851 and C1861 censuses, but am struggling to find his death.
Morag - you have the same details as me for Elizabeth on the 1841 census, she is certainly the only candidate and I trawled through all of Dunscore incase there was any mistranscriptions.
Anyway, thank you both very much for your help!
Tx
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Hello Sparkle
I am decended from William Brown & Margaret Gibson who married in 1833 and raised a family of 6 boys in Tynron. I have traced 5 of them but cannot find the eldest Thomas after 1851 census. as far as the parents are concerned, I could not find any births for William although all the census returns said he was born in Dunscore. He and his family regularly appeared on the Poor Roll at Tynron.
Margaret Gibson was supposed to have been born in Morton.
I started this family search in the 1980's and gave up because of all the blanks in the Parish Regs.
Like to hear how you get on.
p.s. think you will find on Williams death cert issued at Tynron that his fathers name was given as Thomas Brown and his mother as Mary Cowan :-\
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Hello Ruffus!
I've no idea how I missed your post. I'm very sorry!
Do you know what year William died?
Have you got his marriage certificate to Mary? Is there any other information, or does it just say from x parish etc?
Saying that... 'William/Billy/Bill Broon' is a scarily common name!
But yes the missing registers of this time in this area are VERY frustrating!!
Regards
Tracey
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which one of elizabeths children is your ancestor csc
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Her son George Ireland is my G.G Grandfather :)
Tx
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william brown married janet biggar in 1829 kirkgunzeon he died 1881 feb 12th at kirkhouses kirkgunzeon of pneumonia says his father george brown weaver and esther mclaurin witness mary brown daughter william had a large family probably visited his cousin george ireland not far away at lochfoot got the papers if you want them csc
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birth dunscore 1856 5th october william brown illegitimate cottack mother elizabeth brown field labourer informant william------ sorry cant read his surname csc
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birth dunscore 25th may 1852 susan johnstone natural daughter of elizabeth brown and james johnstone csc
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Is this more children!. I'm going to have to have another look into Elizabeth! I wonder what happened to these children!
I've replied to your pm!
Thanks
Tx
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Do you have the MI for Elizabeth which is in Dunscore Village Churchyard as follows:
Sacred to Bryce Wood, who died at Dunscore Manse, October 1821 aged 41 years. Also Agnes Halliday his wife who died May 27th 1829 aged 47 years (Reverse of Stone) In memory of Elizabeth Brown, who died at Dunscore Village 1866 aged 48 years . Also James Dalziel her husband who died June 1873 aged 78 years. Also Martha daughter of the above, aged 25 years. Also Margaret Kirkpatrick who died at High Barlae, Girthon October 6th 1896 aged 50 years.
Not sure if this transcription is accurate as the date of Martha's death is missing.
Morag.
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I didn't have this as I don't have the Dunscore MIs. But I suspected it was there so I was planning a visit this weekend. If I can find it I'll post up a picture.
Thanks :D
Tx
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Well I found Elizabeth Brown and James Dalziel's grave.
It is at Dunscore Kirk:
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee251/masalskis/Graves/IMG_1423.jpg)
And here is a picture of their stone:
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee251/masalskis/Graves/IMG_1421.jpg)
It was a cold but sunny day and good to find Betty's last resting place :)
Tx
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thats a great picture do you think there is any chance they might be related to the people on the other side so happy you have found it csc
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Thanks Christeen :)
It was a lovely sunny day and not too difficult to find as I took my Mum to help us search. But my 3yr old kept running away and eventually fell in a pot hole!?! I can imagine Betty having a giggle at our antics on our visit to her! :)
I don't think they are related to the folk on the other side of the stone. There were several other stones in the church yard which also had double inscriptions decades apart, and none seemed to share a common name. I think it was maybe the poor folks way of being able to afford a grave stone/plot.
We then went to visit my Mum's friend who died after falling off her horse a few years ago who is buried in the newer municipal ground adjacent. Very sad as her stone only states her name and when she died, nothing of her story or relationships :(
Tx