RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: An65 on Friday 13 March 09 19:39 GMT (UK)
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uhm, considering the amount of work Ive done on the Grays I am quite suprised Ive never nailed this one down.
Joshua Gray was b.cir 1840 in Boston, Lincolnshire, and married Delenda Williams who was baptised as Hartherdelender in 1833 Hornsea Yorks, d/o Job & Elizabeth Williams.
They were married in 1859 Ormskirk District Lancashire (GRO Index). It would be far too easy to just grab the marriage certificate to find out who his father was, and I never do things the easy (expensive) way if theres another way.
Joshua and Delenda went on to have a bundle of chavvies mostly in Southport area Lancs. There was Enoch, John, Nelson, Joshua, Samson and Herbert for sure.
But on the 1881 census they are travelling with some nephews and nieces - Leona, Samson, Wymore and Herbert Brown.
Now I long since felt that this group belonged to Edward Heron and Bella Gray of the Heron Pedigree, Edward being on of Khulai Heron and Dorelia Boswell (d/o Tyso). Isabella Gray was d/o Harriet Williams by John Budd "Jack" Gray (who was transported in 1844). Harriet Williams mother was reputedly Maria Boswell, Dorelias sister, who had a liason with David Williams. It need not be mentioned that Maria Boswell herself also had a relationship with John Budd Gray because that sounds a wee bit freaky and only complicates matters more. Oops I told you.
So I am wondering if the Brown chavvies have turned up with auntie and uncle Josh and Delenda because they were related via the Williams side of the family........ or ....
Was Joshua Gray another child of John Budd Gray by lord only knows who. He had at least 5 "wives" that I know of already, and reputedly 8 children, although I have only ever found seven. So is Joshy the elusive 8th child?
And if anyone has any data on the Williams lineage Id be grateful. Many thanks
Ann x
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They were married in 1859 Ormskirk District Lancashire (GRO Index). It would be far too easy to just grab the marriage certificate to find out who his father was, and I never do things the easy (expensive) way if theres another way.
Ann x
Hello Ann,
looks like you will have to take the easy option.
best wishes
heywood
I can see the family in 1891 but not earlier than 1881
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Hi Ann
According to a manuscript family tree held at the Gypsy Collections, Liverpool, Joshua is the son of Jack Gray and Maria Williams and his siblings were Bidi, Susie, Israel, Eliza and John.
Jack Gray also had partnerships with Harriet Williams, Eliza Heron and Wadi Heron and so there are numerous half-siblings as well.
I appreciate that we can't take all that as gospel.
But somewhere in my files I have a newspaper report published when Joshua and Delenda celebrated their Golden Wedding anniversary but it will take me a while to locate it. As soon as I do, I'll check if Joshua mentions his parents in it.
Best wishes
Sharon
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Hi again
I'd also be interested to know more about the Williams family.
The widow of one of my Taylors – Urania or Uriah nee Smith – married a David Williams as her second husband in Long Stanton, Cambridgeshire in the early 1820s. But I've never been able to trace any record of the couple after that. So was this the same David Williams as the one you mentioned or a different one?
Best wishes
Sharon
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Sharon you are, as always, a SUPASTAR. Many thanks.
What I have managed to find out thus far is that Jack was John Budd Gray and he had a whole new family in Tasmania, and later Australia, where he finally died in 1868.
His reputed kids from my notes were
Frank (Knivela) by Eliza Heron (Ive never found him) He reputedly married Gomorrha "Mori" Gray d/o Piramus.
Sonny Gray by Eliza Heron (who appears on the Census easy enough to find. ) He was b.cir 1827 Nth Walsham and married Francis Emma Mann.
Caroline who was reputedly Uri Herons daughter and married Tom s/o Piramus Gray - she also appears on census but under aliases such as Catherine and Emma. She appears to have been b.cir 1830 possibly at Epsom, where she gives a place of birth on Census.
John or Johnny, s/o Maria Boswell b.cir 1830 married Vashti Lee b.cir 1835 Norwich according to census.
and Three by Marias daughter Harriet Williams:
Eliza (the Wikki from the Heron Pedigree) b.cir 1832 Nth Cave Yks, married Joseph Elliott, s/o Edward b.cir 1836 Candlesby Lin.
Victoria c.22.07.1838 Moorby Lincs d/o John & Harriet, gypsies encamped in the parish of Revesby.
and Isabella b.cir 1842 London, married Edward Heron (aka Young) b.cir 1842 Wetherby Yks.
Have edited this post to include more details.
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I dont know - Ive had a cursory glance around the usual places for both Job Williams and David Williams and have not been able to turn up anything conclusive as yet.
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Hi Ann
Running quickly through this Gray tree from Liverpool, here are the reputed children of Jack Gray and his four wives. Thought the names might be useful as new census search terms...:
Children of Jack Gray and Maria Williams:
Bidi Gray, partner of Inji Heron
Joshua, partner of Delenda Williams
Susie, partner of Sampson Boswell
Israel, partner of Eldorai Smith
Eliza, partner of Perun Heron and of Oscar Boswell
John, partner of Wasti Lee, d of Zachariah
Children of Jack Gray and Harriet Williams
Caroline, partner of Tom Gray
Wikki, partner of Joseph Elliott
Bella, partner of Nelson Gray and of Edward Heron of Charles Dalton (thus) replaced by Brown (perhaps the source of the Brown children in your original post)
Oti or Yunaici, partner of Goli Heron
David, died young
Children of Jack Gray and Eliza Heron
Soni Gray - no partner given
Kaivela Gray - no partner given
Children of Jack Gray and Wadi Heron
Mochus
Enos
Studivares
Waidence, partner of Tom Burns
Kiomi
Spidi
Daienia
Rabi, partner (added by another hand) of ? Wenti Boswell
The children of Bella Gray and Charles Dalton/Brown are given as:
Louisa, partner of Wm Saddler
Reni
Sarah, partner of Enos Boswell, mother of Brotherman Boswell and Femi Boswell
Best wishes
Sharon
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The Victoria I found at Moorby, d/o John & Harriet is a deffo, and extra to that list. God he had loads didnt he?
According to the Ships Surgeons Journal (CON14/28 PP160&61) John described his wife as "Hart" (evidently Harriet) and claimed to have 8 children.
You do know he married again and had a whole new family after transportation? Well he didnt actually marry - he was refused permission, but they lived as man and wife.
With Frances "Fanny" Dowlen/Dowling he also had:
Charlotte b.1849 Hobart
Charles John c.1851 Hobart
William Israel c.1853 Hobart
John b.cir 1854 Geelong Australia
Parmoss b.cir 1855 Geelong Australia
Angelina b.cir 1858 Geelong Australia
Isabella Jane b.cir 1861 Geelong Australia
Alexander Thomas b.cir 1863 Geelong Australia
George Francis b.cir 1868 Geelong Australia
John Budd Gray (aka Jack) died in 1868 (presumably of exhaustion) and was buried in Geelong Eastern Cem.
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Just to add a few more bits of info:
Inji & Bidi are on the Heron Pedigree, but Ive not been able to track any of that particular branch down.
Susie & Sam(p)son Boswell - he was s/o Riley Boss & Lucy Boswell and emigrated to the USA. He married Janey Rowells in Tallapoosa, Alabama in 1883, I have approx age for Samson, b.cir 1843 Nettleby Lin (Nettleham or Nettleton presumably)
Eliza & Perrin Heron aka Young - she b.cir 1835 and he 1825 "Haughendon" Perrin/perun/Robert was s/o Miller Heron aka Young and Winifruita Boswell.
Oti Gray & Goliah Heron aka Young, her approx birth must be very approx as shes listed as cir 1848 Nottingham - and Jack was transported in 1844. She appears as "Mary". Goliah aka John b.cir 1835 Hull d.1882 he was s/o Tom Heron. They are sleeping in a camp, Newbiggen Dacre, Cumberland in 1881.
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uhm, considering the amount of work Ive done on the Grays I am quite suprised Ive never nailed this one down.
Joshua Gray was b.cir 1840 in Boston, Lincolnshire, and married Delenda Williams who was baptised as Hartherdelender in 1833 Hornsea Yorks, d/o Job & Elizabeth Williams.
They were married in 1859 Ormskirk District Lancashire (GRO Index). It would be far too easy to just grab the marriage certificate to find out who his father was, and I never do things the easy (expensive) way if theres another way.
Joshua and Delenda went on to have a bundle of chavvies mostly in Southport area Lancs. There was Enoch, John, Nelson, Joshua, Samson and Herbert for sure.
But on the 1881 census they are travelling with some nephews and nieces - Leona, Samson, Wymore and Herbert Brown.
Now I long since felt that this group belonged to Edward Heron and Bella Gray of the Heron Pedigree, Edward being on of Khulai Heron and Dorelia Boswell (d/o Tyso). Isabella Gray was d/o Harriet Williams by John Budd "Jack" Gray (who was transported in 1844). Harriet Williams mother was reputedly Maria Boswell, Dorelias sister, who had a liason with David Williams. It need not be mentioned that Maria Boswell herself also had a relationship with John Budd Gray because that sounds a wee bit freaky and only complicates matters more. Oops I told you.
So I am wondering if the Brown chavvies have turned up with auntie and uncle Josh and Delenda because they were related via the Williams side of the family........ or ....
Was Joshua Gray another child of John Budd Gray by lord only knows who. He had at least 5 "wives" that I know of already, and reputedly 8 children, although I have only ever found seven. So is Joshy the elusive 8th child?
And if anyone has any data on the Williams lineage Id be grateful. Many thanks
Ann x
From Free Reg
County Lincolnshire
Place Revesby
Church St Lawrence
RegisterNumber 431
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 22 Jul 1838
Forename Joshua
Sex M
FatherForename John
MotherForename Maria
FatherSurname Gray
MotherSurname
Abode Revesby
FatherOccupation a gipsy ? in this parish
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Surname
Forename(s)
Surname
Forename(s)
Church / Register Office
Registers At
Reference
GRAY
Joshua
WILLIAMS
Delenda
Birkdale St. James
North Sefton