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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: barbatalice on Thursday 09 April 09 09:10 BST (UK)
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Seeking information on John Frederick MALCOLM who died at the Waterman's Arms, Church St 18 Oct 1838 and was buried 23 Oct in Gravesend parish. There was a coroner's enquiry
I would be very grateful for any leads on John Frederick MALCOLM or tips on how to locate the coroner's report.
He had a son, also John Frederick MALCOLM, born Woolwich in 1825. This son migrated to Australia in the 1850's and married Rebecca NEWMAN in Melbourne in 1858
barbatalice
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Hi Barbatalice
I can see the baptisms of his children on the IGI http://www.familysearch.org in Woolwich and all have the father as plain John MALCOM (no middle name of Frederick) likewise with his burial in Gravesend. Therefore, I would suggest that the 1812 marriage to Mary http://www.familysearch.org could be a possibility - do you have any details from this marriage ie. names of witnesses or perhaps even parish of residence which might be useful? I notice, from later census, that his wife Mary was born Spitalfields, Middlesex. Also, do you have an occupation for John (perhaps from the baptisms of the children)?
Casalguidi :)
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Hi,
We are researching the same family line. John Frederick Malcolm was my ancestor, through his son John Frederick Malcom, then his grand daughter Vida Elaine Malcolm.
I have quite alot of information on this line.
I never got the coroner's report of his death, and would be very interested in that.
Regards,
Anita.
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Greetings Anita
Yes we are indeed researching the same family. I am descended from Vida Elaine’s older sister Florence Starling MALCOLM . I think we must be about 3rd or 4th cousins!
Since my post in April I have found what I think is a more likely date of death for our John Frederick MALCOLM (snr):
John MACOLM , abode King St Woolwich, buried Feb 21 1840, aged 51 years at St Mary Magdalene Church in the Parish of Woolwich Kent
I am pretty sure this is our John Frederick MALCOLM (snr) for several reasons:
1. In the 1841 census, the family is living at 18 King St, Woolwich.
For your interest, the household on census night consisted of Mary MALCOLM 49, William MALCOLM 18, John MALCOLM (our ancestor) 15, Thomas MALCOLM 13, David MALCOLM 9, Emanela MALCOLM (probably a mistranscription of Emily) 5, married daughter Mary Ann SWEENEY 20 and her family, and two other related children.
2. John Frederick MALCOLM (Jnr) was christened at St Mary Magdalene Church Woolwich 18 Sept 1825 and at the time his parents were living in King St
I hope this is of interest to you.
I would very much like more information on the MALCOLMs
In particular, if you have solved the mystery of the ancestry of John Frederick MALCOLM Jnr’s wife Rebecca NEWMAN I would be very pleased if you would share it. I, and a number of other MALCOLM descendants, have hit a brick wall about Rebecca!
Cheers and welcome to RootsChat
Barbatalice
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Hi Barbatalice !
Very nice to hear from you. That is fantastic news.
I have much information on Rebecca, but I don't think I have actually solved the mystery yet. There is a family rumour that she was the ward of Lord Fisher's father (at least that is what Vida told my grandmother). I have found no proof of that. Do you have any similar legend that you have heard ?
I have photos ! I have a damaged photo of Rebecca Newman, and I will search for it and send you a copy. I also have some photos of Blanche Malcolm c1920, Rita Watts, Alfred Watts and Lionel Frederick Malcolm. You may be interested in these, as they could be your side of the family - let me know which ones.
I would be very grateful if you could send what you have on the Malcolm side, and I will see how it all fits in.
Now back to Rebecca. I have the 1841 Census record with Rebecca living in Southrop with her mother and two brothers (James b1838 and George b1836). I know that this is the right family, as I have the birth certificate for James, and it lists his parents as John Newman and Marian Wilkins. Then it gets difficult. I couldn't trace where Rebecca then moved to in the 1851 Census, as her mother then died. She migrated to Australia in 1857 on the 'Hornet'. Her occupation is listed as a ladies companion.
I instead shifted focus to the her brothers and had a major breakthrough. Her brothers were living in Birmingham in 1851 with John Newman and his wife Jane (with children James 12, George 14 and Sarah 9). It lists the birthplace as Southrop for the brothers, so I know that this is our line (they also had the right ages, and Southrop is a tiny town). I then went looking for the marriage certificate to prove that John remarried. I found one where John Newman (widower) married Jane Craddock in 1851, in Birmingham.
Finally in 1851 I have a Rebecka Newman working in a linen and drapery store in Birmingham, with her birthplace listed as Gloucestershire. As her father than brothers had also moved there, I think that this is most likely the right record.
Armed with the remarriage date of John Newman, I went searching for the death certificate for Mary Newman. I found one that was likely. Died 13 March 1848 in the Eastington Parish workhouse, wife of John Newman. I am still a little confused about Sarah.. she is listed on the 1851 census as being born in Staffordshire, but her age should make her Mary's daughter.... I will solve this mystery with a little more time.
Love to trade notes. I also have some more information on John Malcolm, but I will leave that for another time.
Anita.
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Hi Anita
What a treasure trove you have posted! I will respond 1 paragraph at a time
Lord Fisher: I have read about this on another genealogy site but it is not one of our family stories. However I do notice that one of Rebecca's children has FISHER as a middle name so someone with that name was obviously significant for the family.
Photos: YES please - Blanch MALCOLM & Lionel Frederick MALCOLM are Florence Starling MALCOLM's (my ancestor) siblings. Rita WATTS is one of Florence Starling MALCOLM's children. I don't know about Alfred WATTS.
A John NEWMAN and Mary WILKINS were married in Southrop in 1833 so I agree that the 1841 census is most likely them.
However I do have reservations - the Bath online BDM index http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/ has a James NEWMAN born 1837 in Bathwick, Bath, mother's maiden name WILKINS!! Unfortunately the index does not have earlier records so I could not search for Rebecca or George. Also Rebecca does put Bath as her birthplace on her marriage certificate.
Most impressive sleuthing on the death of Marian NEWMAN and John Newman's remarriage!!! I look forward to following your trail.
Do you have the detailed passenger arrival information for Rebecca NEWMAN (or John Frederick MALCOLM) in Melbourne? (physical description, occupation etc? I posted a RootsChat lookup request about that today.
You have raised some intriguing new lines of investigation:
Who is Sarah NEWMAN's mother? Is she the daughter of Marian WILKINS or of Jane CRADDOCK by a previous marriage?
Did our gggggrandmother Marian (Mary) really die in a workhouse and if so, why?
Why did the rest of the family move to Birmingham from Gloucestershire? Maybe this is where Lord FISHER comes in.
I have numerous attachments to send you - will try to contact via the you have messages link at the top of the screen
We may need to move our discussion to a NEWMAN WILKINS name forum - ADVICE FROM MODERATOR PLEASE
Cheers
Barb
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Hi Barb and Anita
I too am related via the grandson of John Frederick Malcolm, John Alexander Malcolm who went to South Africa during the Boer War. His daughter Jean Mary Malcolm, her daughter (my mother) then me.
I am thrilled to see some progress on Rebecca and her parents - my mind numbing brick wall.
On Rebecca's death register in 1897, it is also stated as her having being born in Bath. Her father was John Newman (Iron Founder) and mother Marian Wilkins.
I originally read in a tree by Cheryl on One Great Family Tree in 2002 that Rebecca's father had died in India - I have searched in circles for any link but to no avail. But then maybe he didn't as Anita has suggested through a remarriage etc.
Cheryl also stated that Rebecca had come from Bath and that her father had owned a bookshop?????
The story of Rebecca being a ward of the Fisher family - I have been in contact with some descendents of the Fisher family - they have no knowledge of there being a child taken on as a ward in the mid 1800's.
However if the Marian Wilkins died in a poor house in approx 1848 (?) as Anita has suggested then had the husband left her; was he away on a trip to India?? But then again if there were brothers James and George - where did they go? Rebecca might therefore well have been placed with a family???
I too have seen the 1841 census and had previously stuck it to my Ancestry tree to see if there were any further hints to corroborate it - not yet but then I look forward to also following Anita's trail.
There is also a family rumour in our family that Rebecca was Jewish - I have contacted all Newmans in the Jewish Genealogy Website for information - no luck. Are you aware of this "fact"?
Now to John Frederick Malcolm - my mother has told me that he had been involved in the search of Sir John Franklin (North West Passage). This was also stated by the post made by Cheryl on One Great Family Tree in 2002 -
Name: John Fredrick MALCOLM
Sex: M
Birth: 31 AUG 1825 in Woolwich, Kent, England
Death: 4 AUG 1902 in Woodstock Street, Cantebury, Balwyn of Chronic Brochitis
Burial: Melbourne General Cemetary
Baptism: 18 SEP 1825 St Mary Magdalen, Woolwich, Kent
Event: Certificate No. Death: 8232
Event: Immigrated Circa 1854
Occupation: Bricklayer, Officer's cook in British Navy
ADDR: 135 Latrobe St East, Melbourne, Victoria, 3000
Australia Medical Information: Complexion: Fresh, Eyes: Hazel, Hair: Light Brown.
Note:
HMS 'Resolute' 28th February 1850 - 9th October 1851. Private expedition in search of Sir John Franklin (North West Passage). Captain and Officers cook. Merchant Navy Reference ADM 38/8862. Seaman's Ticket 376,457 28th March 1850.
Musters Taken:
14 June 1850 - Whalefish, then at sea
30 Sept 1850 - Frozen in between Cornwallis and Griffith Island
9 Mar 1850 - Frozen in between Cornwallis and Griffith Island
20 Aug 1851 - Baffin Bay
20 Sept 1851 - Off the Orkneys
Oct - Woolwich, Kent
"Entitled to double pay 4th May 1850 per Adm Order"
Melbourne Directory Entries:
1861 - Builder and Bricklayer, LaTrobe St East
1866 - Builder, LaTrobe St East
1873 - 1876 - Bricklayer, Cotham Rd, Kew
Member of the Geographical Society of Australia.
Built many houses in Elaine, Victoria. The town was named after his daughter, Vida Elaine Malcolm.
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Arrived in Victoria on the 'Anglesey' December 1854, Aged 29. No other family members travelling with him with the same surname.
Source: Public Record Office, Inward Passengers from British Ports (1852 - 1859) B 079 001 (Gaye)
I have a great picture of John Frederick Malcolm and would love a picture of Rebecca please.
I have already passed on some data to Barb on John Frederick and John Alexander Malcolm and happy to pass on anything I have to you Anita.
Looking forward to breaking down Rebecca's wall - who knows maybe we might get to the 1700's!!!!!!
Thanks so much
Gaye
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Gaye,
This is fantastic ! I actually have a photo of John Alexander Malcolm taken in South Africa with his 'other' family.
I have sent my Rebecca Newman research to Barbatalice, and would be happy to send it to you also. It is a 10MB document, so let me know if this is okay. It includes all the census records and certificates. I have linked John Newman to Joseph Newman (his brother), then to their parents Richard Newman and Hannah Clifford. The Clifford line goes back to Richard I.
The reference to India was probably a copy from a much older family tree that I did. This was when we were trying to guess where John Newman had died. My grandmother remembered her mother saying that they died in a 'heathen' country and we were guessing that it had something to do with the East India Company. (We couldn't work out any other option for John Newman leaving the country).
I would love a copy of the photo of John Frederick Malcolm - I don't have one.
I will send you a personal message with my email address, but until then, I am attaching the photo of John A Malcolm. I have others also, and a photo of his sons.
Regards,
Anita.
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Hi Anita
Wow , incredible to see a much older family with JAM and Mabel. I don't think I have ever seen one of the family grouping just one with Mabel and children.
I am stunned to see that you have managed a Newman tree - yes please. Any information on Newman / Malcolms would be most welcome and greatfully received.
If you are interested in the Malcolm / Oertel family, happy to oblige.
Unfortunately your personal email did not get through so try the address below - just replace dots.
email address removed by moderator - the Rootschat personal message system will automatically be activated once a poster has made 2 or 3 posts on the boards
Thanks
Gaye
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I am the grandson of Blanche Mary Malcolm as she married my Grandfather Harry Victor Rogers in 1898. Daughter of JFM
Interested in her date of birth and where she was born.
Have photos of her family and her brother John Alexander in uniform taken in Melbourne.
When did she arrive in the UK? Where did she live before 1898.
Visited her grave this year and her daughter Grace is in the same grave.
Did John Alexander stay in SA. You mention two families.
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Hi Suton
Great to hear from you.
I am descended from Blanche Mary's older sister Florence Starling MALCOLM, and one of Florence's daughters Blanche May WATTS is named after your grandmother.
Blanche Mary was born in Melbourne, Australia in 1862, the third of 10 children. So as you can imaging there are many descendants in Australia and NZ.
It would be great to learn about your grandmother, as we lost track of her once she left Australia. Where is she buried?
John Alexander MALCOLM returned to Melbourne from South Africa and is buried in Melbourne
Blanche Mary appears to have emigrated to England in 1892.
Cheers
barbatalice
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Hi
adding to Barbs response above
I am a decendant via John Alexander Malcolm.
Very glad to hear from you as we really know nothing about Blanche apart from that she was born in 1862 in Australia (assume Melbourne as the other siblings were born there).
From the MC, we know that she married your grandfather in Essex on 19 Dec 1898.
There is a possible shipping record that has her arriving in London in 28 Nov 1892 from Australia. In those time a big trip for a young girl, possibly on her own. Anita has a photograph of people aboard a ship which would be of interest to you and to us as we would like to know which one is Blanche.
Keen to know more
Cheers
Gaye
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Hi Sueton,
Great to hear from you. We have been pulling together the Malcolm family history over the last couple of months, and we have made some amazing progress. I would love to see any photos or documents that you have. I would also love to hear about any family stories you have of either Rebecca Newman or John Malcolm.
I have a photo of Blanche (supposedly) on her way to England in 1892. I also have a copy of her marriage certificate to Henry Rogers.
I will send you an message with my email address.
Regards,
Anita.
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hi Gaye and Barb
Blanche Mary or Marie m Harry Victor Rogers on 19th Dec 1898 at St matthews church West Ham We have the Cert. It gives their addresses as living in London and both 29yrs of age. we do not know how they met. Mabe on board ship
intransit to UK in 1982 as HV was a ship's engineer mainly on the OZ UK routes.
After marriage they must have moved to Nottingham where HV was born.
They lived in a large house in Cotmanhay near Ilkeston. Derbyshire
Children
Alfred malcolm b 1899
Grace Woodroffe b 1901
Alexander Charles b 1903 my father
Leonard Harry 1904
John Victor (Jack) 1905
We know that she was older than stated on her marriage Cert if she was born in 1862. On her grave in Park Cemetry, Ilkeston on 18th Feb 1924 aged 54 yrs.
Her daughter is in the same grave died nov 8th 1943 are 33 yrs Unmarried
Unfortunately B died before any of her Grandchildren were born.
HV had many business interests in Ilkeston, laundries, bus company etc.
He loved fishing.
We will organise photos later.
Tony
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Grace died in 1934 not 1943!!
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I have a copy of John Alexander Malcolm's military photograph, and of his Melbourne grave headstone. He died on 12 August 1938. I also believe that I am a direct descendant of his and am having trouble getting any more information other than what has been posted on this website. Please can you point me in the right direction or send any information my way. I also have his birth registry entry from Australia.
Kind Regards,
Jeniferjones
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Hi Jennifer and welcome to Rootschat :D
Do you have any indication that he or his ancestors originated from Kent?
What information is given on his birth certificate?
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Hi Jennifer
Welcome
My name is Gaye Grieve and John Alexander Malcolm was my gr grandfather via his marriage to Mabel Jane OERTEL in South Africa.
As you can see there has been a lot of postings on the Malcolm family - How can I help?
You are welcome to contact me off line.
Cheers
Gaye
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Hi Gaye,
How do I find your email address? Sorry new to all this. Mabel was my grandmother.
Many thanks,
Jeniferjones
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Hi Jenifer
You will need another post before you can "talk" offline.
Who was your mum?
Cheers
Gaye
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Dear Gaye
My father was Noel John Malcolm, and my mother was Enid Winifred Malcolm [nee Chivers].
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Hi Jenifer
My mom (daughter of Jean Malcolm - Nunc's sister) have speculated all day as to who you were. WOW.
We have a lot to talk about but which would probably be best off line. We have done a lot of research into the Malcolm's and Oertel's. Are you aware that there has been a book "Die Punt van die Swaard" written about the family mostly during the Boer War and in which Jack malcolm plays an important role? I have a translated copy if it is of interest to you.
I have no information about your parents or family and would love to swap notes sometime. We now live in New Zealand and the rest of the Mabel and Jack's decendents seem to live in Australia / South Africa.
Talk again soon
Cheers
Gaye
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Again, thank you, Gaye, for the info you sent me. I agree - emailing would be more prudent!
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Hi to All,
My name is John Malcolm, a son of Wallace Malcolm who was John Alexander (Jack) and Mabel Malcolm's eldest son. John Frederick Malcolm was my great grandfather. I am filled with admiration by the work you have all done. I have a portrait of JFM (the original oil painting) hanging in my dining room (in Johannesburg, South Africa). Gaye, who is my second cousin, already knows of this from email correspondence we have had over the last couple of days. I have promised Gaye that I will try to photgraph the portrait and email a copy to her and if any of you would also like a copy please let me know. This RootsChat thing is very new to me (discovered yesterday) so I am not sure how we exchange email addresses. Gaye will vouch for my bona fides. Unfortunately my knowledge of the Malcolm history, while reasonably good going back to John Alexander (my grandfather), gets a bit hazy after that and the rest of you are way ahead of me. I do have a copy of JAM'S birth certificate showing JFM and Rebecca (nee Newton) as his parents. I will wllingly help the research in any way I can but, reading all your posts, you have unearthed material that I would dearly love to add to my collection so I'm afraid that I am likely to be more of a taker than a giver.
JohnMalcolm
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Welcome to Rootschat John
Once you have made 2 or 3 posts here on the boards, the Rootschat personal message system will automatically be activated then you can send a message (in private) and/or your email address to any other member of Rootschat by clicking on their name to the left of any post they have made.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi John
You are a star - finally got you hooked and really looking forward to exploring your knowledge of the Malcolm family. You'll find that it become easier offline which we can sort out shortly.
Cheers
Gaye
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Hi John,
I believe you have met my sister in Pinetown some years ago. She now lives in Durban North.
We are the grandchildren of Blanch Mary Malcolm the sister of John Alexander Malcolm who married Harry Victor Rogers.
We have been corresponding with Lemairel in OZ and have have received a lot of info from her.
Tony Rogers
Sueton
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Hi Tony
Great to meet you.
John Alexander was my gr grandfather via his marriage to Mabel Oertel.
I have been following your offline emails with Anita and we were very excited to find a descendant of Blanche as we knew nothing about her. Great to have those photographs - thank you.
On Sunday night I was finally updating my tree with all the data we have collated and came across the link between your email to Anita and then a recent one from John telling me he had met a Jean (nee Malcolm) in Kloof. The newspaper articles she gave John have been faithfully documented.
But my question to you is Jean made a comment to John that her father, who she described as the "black sheep" of the family, was JAM's brother.
I am now thouroughly confused so could you please tell me how you all fit in ie children / grandchildren etc of Blanche and Henry down?
Regards
Gaye
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Hi Tony,
Thanks for your message, its great to have contact with another relative. Like Gaye, I am also confused. The lady we met in Natal was Jeanne. I met her only very briefly and my wife, Monika, saw more of her while Jeanne was working at our local pharmacy in Kloof. We are now back in Johannesburg.
Monika is adamant that Jeanne said her maiden name was Malcolm and said that my father would have been her first cousin. My father was Wallace Oertel Malcolm, son of John Alexander Malcolm (JAM) and Mabel (nee Oertel), JAM's second wife. JAM was therefore my grandfather and his sister, Blanch Malcolm, would have been my great aunt. If Jeanne is your sister I cannot figure out how her maiden name could have been Malcolm. If her maiden name was Malcolm she would have to have descended from a male Malcolm or have my wife and I misunderstood? I guess we will get it unravelled but what is clear is that you and I are cousins (2nd cousins? I'm never sure quite how the numbering works).
Cheers,
John
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Hi Gaye,
what a pleasant surprise to see so many comments about Malcolm family. But I was always aware that the Oertel family is huge! Evelyn Cox (née Oertel) was my grandmother. Where can I get a translated copy of "Die Punt van die Swaard"?
Cheers ... Brian
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Hi Brian - I have replied off line re the translation.
However you have opened a can of worms as I am sure all the Oertel's are keen on the Oertel / Cox line as not much is know.
Look forward to see how it develops.
Cheers
Gaye
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Good day
we are interested in following up on the Malcolm family tree, my husband's grandmother was one of Jack and Mabel Malcolm's daughters - Eileen.
Best regards
Anne Rowe
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Good day
we are interested in following up on the Malcolm family tree, my husband's grandmother was one of Jack and Mabel Malcolm's daughters - Eileen.
Best regards
Anne Rowe
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I presume your husbands father was Malcolm William Rowe the son of Eileen Mavis Malcolm and Albert Rowe whose dates we do not have. My husband is the Grandson of Blanche Marie Malcolm the sister of John (Jack) Alexander George Malcolm.
We are in touch with a few of the family through Roots chat.
Regards.
Susan Rogers
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Thank you Susan for replying - we would love to know more about Jack Malcolm's family history!
And yes my husband is the youngest son of Malcolm Rowe.
Best regards
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Hi Anne, I am Jean Malcolm's gran daughter. My mum is Ann and I now live in Brisbane.
I met up with Michael a few years back in Chch when he was first starting down the Family History track. I assume you are Dominic's wife?
Anne, happy to bombard you with data as much as you want / can cope with but preferably off line. It has been amazing who has been turning up via these posts.
Can you send me your email via private message please?
Cheers
Gaye