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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Caernarvonshire => Wales => Caernarvonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ceiriog1 on Sunday 10 May 09 14:42 BST (UK)
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I'm desperately looking for the birth/marriage record of Robert Jones born C1837. He was married we think in Caernarvon as I've found his widow and child in the census. He died at sea in 1867 on the Edward Allison as the ship was never heard of again after it sailed. He was married to Annie and had a daughter called Ann (born C1867) and a son William. We believe his mother was Moriah (various spellings) Lester. I would sincerely appreciate any help/advice. Many thanks. Cari
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Hi Cari
What is the census year & number you found Ann?
Where and what year was Ann & the children born?
Wendy :)
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Hi Cari
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I've just checked Free BMD for marriages of a Robert Jones and an Ann/variations in Caenarvon 1864-67. There are 3. They could have married before this but it's a starting point
Did Annie marry again?
As Wendy says, census ref and age/place of birth of Annie would help us help you :)
Gadget
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Hello Cari,
There are many of the parish registers transcribed for Caernafon on Freereg http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi
I have entered the details and as you might imagine, came up with very many hits. The words needle and haystack come to mind.
Also, you have to bear in mind that there were very many non conformist chapels too. A number of these have not made their records available to the public.
Good luck!
Jo
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Thank you all so much for your replies
I have also looked through all the online sources and fear that it may be impossible..
I have found Annie (widow, born C1841) living with her daughter and son in law on the 1891 census Llanbeblig (district 12) on page 11. Ann (daughter of Robert and Annie) married Watkin Williams (a name a little easier for research). It states that they were all born in Carnarvon.
I can't seem to find any record of them before this date (Ann Jones, daughter, lived at 54 Chapel Street before her marriage to Watkin)
I've managed to locate Robert Jones's merchant seaman certificate number (also states born in Carnarvon) and these records are held at Kew which may give more info about him but living in Devon makes research difficult
All advice/suggestions are most welcome, many thanks. Cari
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I'm also not very familiar with the census data - do you know whether carnarvon was always recorded under district 12 as this district seems to be missing from some of the earlier census?
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Hello Cari,
You have my sympathies as I have had similar trouble finding my Roberts, Williams and Rees ancestors.
Can I ask what information you have to suggest that Robert's mother was Moriah Lester? What name variations have you found for Moriah?
I did find a marriage of Thomas Lester to Jane Jones in Llanbeblig Parish Church in 18 March 1837. Wonder if there could be a connection with your family?
I also wondered if Robert Jones could have gone from Wales with his parents and that is why he cannot be found in the census. There is a Robert Jones who sailed out on the Hindoo in 1842. His father shown as a quarryman and from Caernarfon. Mother is not Moriah however.
I have found entries for Llanbeblig in the 1841 and 1851 census returns.
Best wishes,
Jo
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Hello Cari,
There are several baptisms of Lester children, all of whose parents are Richard and Margaret Lester, in Llan Rhos (Eglwys Rhos) Caernarfonshire in the period 1807- 1817. Mother's surname was Edwards.
One of these is a Mary Lester baptised 20 January 1814.
Another is that of Thomas Lester who was baptised 13/12/1807.
It occurred to me that Moriah may be a misspelling of Mair, the Welsh girl's name. I think the name is also Welsh for Mary.
Just things to bear in mind.
Jo
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Hello Mary is Mair in Welsh, but there is a name Mairwen too.
Steven
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and it could even be a wrongly spelled/transcribed Mariah (how Maria was often pronounced until well into the 20th century )
Gadget
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Hello all
I think you are all right about the spelling of Moriah, I think it is more likely to be Maria. The story of this lady has always been in the family, and Robert Jones's daughter Ann gave her daughter her name Maria Lester Williams (an unusual middle name for a girl). The story is that Maria was from Ireland and that she ran away with Robert's father who was a master seaman from Carnarvon (although romantic I am very doubtful that it is true). Another story, which is more feasible, is that Maria Lester (Jones) started one of the first 'schools' (for the working class) in Carnarvon - I use the term 'school' loosely as she apparently taught children in the back room of her house.
I had a thought that maybe there would be information about Robert in a local paper at the time of his death? It seems that the ship 'Edward Allison' belonged to a ship owner from Angelsey and it's crew would have largely been from the Carnarvon area. The loss of the ship should have made the local paper in 1887/88/89.
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He died at sea in 1867 on the Edward Allison
The loss of the ship should have made the local paper in 1887/88/89.
Sorry. When did he die 1867 or 1887?
Wendy :)
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sorry..a pretty big mistake there - the ship sailed in 1867 - so any references in the newspapers to all hands being lost at sea would be in 1867/68/69
are there any local archives where newspapers are held in Carnarvon that you know of?
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I don't know if these are any use
http://www.n-e-n-a.co.uk/newsarchives.php
http://www.cyndislist.com/wales.htm
Wendy :)
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Hello Cari,
Local papers, I know of the Caernarfon Herald but not sure when it was first published.
You could contact the Record Office in Caernarfon, or the National Library of Wales. I am sure you will succeed in finding more on all this but I doubt it will be possible online.
Some records are shown at http://www.archivesnetworkwales.info/cgi-bin/anw/name_search?id This is a list of holdings at the Caernarfon RO.
I laos saw that they hold deposits from Moriah Chapel, Caernarfon, a Calvinistic Methodist Chapel. Any connection to your ancestor in view of the name?
Did Rober Jones, or his father leave Wills? I should have thought that sea faring folk would be inclined to make them in those days.
Jo
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Hi
The Caernarfon Herald was definitely around in the 1850s. I have a latter written by my 3 x grt grandfather which refers to it.
Gadget
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Sorry, I got the link to Caernarfon Archives wrong. It should have been:
http://www.archivesnetworkwales.info/cgi-bin/anw/search2?coll_id=2763&inst_id=37&term=Aberdaron%20%7C%20Wales
Hope that is the right one!!
Jo
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The newspaper leads have been great - it seems the archives in Carnarvon may have local papers from the time the Edward Allison was lost.
I've got good news - I've found Robert Jone's service number thanks to the 'Welsh Mariners Index'. I've already applied to the National Archives and the Maritime Museum for copies - these will give me details of previous voyages he took and should give me the actual year and place of birth. If I'm really lucky his original application may have survived which gives more personal details. I'll keep you all posted!!
I've also discovered that the archives in Carnarvon provide a research service - which will be useful for the newspaper records.
Does anyone know if you can go and search though the civil records in the registrars office as it would be enormously expensive to order all the birth records for Ann Jones (daughter C1867) particularly as it may not have even been recorded in the civil records?
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Hello Cari,
I don't think you would be permitted to search in the Registrar's office. Have never heard of anyone being allowed to look through these records. You can apply to the local Superintendant Registrar and give as much detail as possible. Things like parents names etc. This is to make sure they get the right one for you.
Freereg has a baptism in Clynnog Fawr Parish Church, Caernarfon, Ann Jones, on 22/11/1867. Daughter of Anne Jones, no father's name shown.
I do wonder if Robert Jones may have been abroad in his younger days if he was the son of a sea faring father.
I did find references to the Edward Allison in the Times Digital Archive but for earlier voyages and not the final one.
Jo
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Hello all
I wanted to let you know that I've received the papers from the Maritime Museum. It says that Robert Jones was born in Carnarvon on the 7th of June 1837 - maybe a lead?
I've got a long list of ships he served on to research.
Does Carnarvon come under the parish of Llanbeblig?
Cari
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Hello again,
Congratulations on the information!
I have looked on Freereg and there is a baptism on 19/07/1837 at Llanbeblig Parish Church, Robert Jones, son of William and Anne Jones.
Don't forget that the baptism would be later than his birthdate.
My understanding is that Llanbeblig is an area of Caernarfon, though I stand to be corrected on this.
Jo
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An expert eye on this would be most useful.....
As previously posted, the family legend is that Robert Jones's mother was Maria Lester from Ireland - I've found an entry on Ancestry in the 1841 census (caenarvonshire, civil parish = llanbeblig, district 9, folio 33, page 16) - it states the husband Owen is a mariner (well at least I think that what is says) and that they have a son Robert but the age is slightly off.
Would anyone be able to decifer the name of the street?
Thankyou - Cari
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Hi Cari
The 1841 Census is HO 107. 1861 is District 9. Have you got the correct reference??
wendy :)
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Hello Cari,
Have you tried an approach to the Gwynedd Family Hisotry Society to see if they might assist with this?
Also, have you seen http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/search.php
I found Robert Jones on this. There is a "possible" for Owen Jones too. This shows an Owen Jones born 1811, of Brynsiencyn (Anglesey) with a reference for him at Kew.
Jo
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I have found another site which might be helpful to you and this is:
http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/maritime.htm
Plenty of information on this one and specif to Gwynedd.
Jo
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I have found the 1841 in Llanbeblig which you mention. The ref is HO107/1394/6 Page 16.
It does look like your family. I would put the street as Wesley Street and this appears to be there today.
Owen Jones age 30 Mariner, born in county.
Maria Jones age 30, born Ireland.
Jane Jones age 5, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 2, born in county.
Jo.
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Hi Jo and all
Thanks so much for all your help - i'm going head on into all the details found...
I'll be sure to keep you all posted
Cari
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A Lester and Jones link in the 1851 census.
Just for your information, I came across a family in the 1851 HO 107 2516 Page 196, who look to be from the same line as the ones you are seeking. All living in 75 Pool Street.
In a previous post, I gave a marriage of Thomas Lester and Jane Jones. The 1851 appears to have this family as follows:
Thomas Lester head age 43 Grocer and Tea Dealer, born Caernarvonshire Llanberis (?).
Jane Lester wife age 36 Dressmaker born Caernarvonshire Llanbeblig.
Eliza Jane Lester, daughter, age 9 scholar born Llanbeblig.
Thomas Roger Lester, son, age 5, born Llanbeblig.
Elizabeth Jones, sister, unm, age 31, Dressmaker, born Llanbeblig.
Jane Jones, servant, age 16, born Llanbeblig.
May be no connection but you never know.
Jo.
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Hello again,
I was looking at the Archives Network Wales for something else and did a search for Owen Jones, mariner while I was there. I found an entry for him as follows, a holding at Bangor University "Owen Jones Ledger: Ledger containing exercises in navigation by Owen Jones and a journal of a voyage from Deptford to Madeira in the Aerial in 1854, kept by John Owens".
Jo
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Hi Jo
I'll be sure to have a look as it may be the right man.
The most confusing thing (although I know the census records are not always complete) is that I cannot find any reference to Maria Jones/Owen Jones etc after the 1841 census - it's as if they dropped off the grid - the FreeReg also doesn't seem to have a record of them. But I am nothing if not persistent ;)
I have also found the famous Robert Jones on the 1861 census in Falmouth which I have been able to confirm due to his seaman record - so I now know that he married Annie after 1861 as the census states he was unmarried...the noose it tightening so to speak!!!
I have never been to Carnarvon (even though I grew up in North Wales) but I'll be planning a trip with my mum soon - i can't wait
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Re Owen and Maria Jones not being on census returns after 1841. Could he/they have been at sea?
The length of the ships' sailing times was pretty extended in those days. I should think that he/they would have been away at sea for weeks, or months, at a time.
I have an idea that wives accompanied their husbands on these voyages too.
Jo
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Hi all,
Can I just jump in on the Moriah discussion -Moriah is a biblical name; the location of the near sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis. It is also a Hebrew girl's name - and appeared in the 2007 top names list, albeit at 855.
There are many Moriah chapels in North Wales.
Sorry to be such a knowall ::)
Quarryman
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http://htmlgear.tripod.com/gw/guest/control.guest?u=Cadwalader&a=view&i=1&r=
Look down the page, another reference to the Edward Allison.
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Hello
Thanks for the info - and the link to another decendant reserching the Edward Allison, hopefully I may be of some help to her
Cari
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Hello all
i thought i would give you an update on my discoveries
I've found a newspaper article which says that Anne Jones (Robert's daughter) was born in Jan 1867 in 4 Garnon St. She and her husband Watkin Williams (Butcher on Pool St and in the Market) kept the Bodarfon Temperance, Castle Ditch for 20 years.
Thanks to Reg, who's responsbile for the Welsh Mariners Index, i've been able to deduce that Robert and Anne should've been married in 1866 upon his return from sea - i must also admit that that i'm starting to put in question whether Robert was in fact Anne's father as he was apparently at sea until August 1866 (so unless Anne was premature...) although he was on land between 21/03/1866 - 16/04/1866 which is a small window of opportunity (so to speak) but does fit the birth date of Anne.
I've also found Anne on the 1881 census with her mum and step father living at 58 Chapel St which is the address she gives on her marriage certificate to Watkin in 1890. I've also discovered that the Jones's were Baptists and so attended Caersalem Chapel - which explains why they don't feature on the FreeReg database.
If I ever manage to find the infamous irish Maria Lester - you will all be the first to know - thanks again for all your advice & info
Cari
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If you ever get any iformation on Maria Lester I would be interested as well since I think we are related! I remember the stories you mention earlier being discussed by my mother and grandmother!
rode42
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hello again rode44, i've just replied to you from another post.
i have yet to put my finger on the famous Moria Lester although the 1841 census does have a record of Maria Jones (not from Wales) married to Owen.
I have all of Robert Jones's master mariner records and have transcribed some of his voyages. I also have his birth & marriage certificate and plenty of other records to do with our family. You may already have these, but if not you could pass me your email address and i'll forward what I have to you (empty your inbox as it's a huge amount!!)
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I have a little bit on a Robert Lester of 3 Thomas Street who joined the South Wales Borderers at outbreak of WW1. After fighting in France (Somme) he went to Salonika where, in 1918 he lost a leg. The hospital ship transferring he was on was sunk in the Med but he was eventually picked up. The hospital he was in in London was then bombed and the man in the next bed to him injured. I particularly liked the final line of the newspaper article
"Although incapacitated Pte Lester is quite cheerfull"
Hard these Cofis eh!
Gwil
PS. Should imagine that Robert is a descendant of Moria?
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hello all :) just started to research my family tree, i've bought some credits on a site and found out a little.
can somebody help me ? my great great great grandad OWEN THOMAS (b 1801) and his wife LAURA (b 1796) were born OR lived in LLANBEBLIG i would like to know when and where they died , and also their son ELLIS THOMAS and his wife ANNEwhen and where they died. and also what anne's maiden name was
thankyou
sel
Moderator comment: duplicate post made on the Welsh language board - please check there to avoid duplication of effort. (No, I can't either, lol)