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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Resources & Offers => Topic started by: Gooders on Friday 29 May 09 18:14 BST (UK)
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With the encouragement of the Parish Council and Local History Society I, along with a few others, have begun to collect information on those men from Flamstead (just over the Hertfordshire border), and a few surrounding villages, who gave their lives in the two World Wars. Our aim is to produce a small written record of their sacrifice so that they do not become just a list of names on a War Memorial. We are interested in both their Military Service and their Home Lives before the Wars.
I have already put this message on the Hertfordshire Board but, realising that a number of these men came from the Pepperstock / Slip End / Markyate / Kensworth areas I thought it might be worthwhile posting it on the Bedfordshire Board as well.
The names of thirty two of these individuals, who died in the First World War, are carved into the base of the Village War Memorial, along with the names of six men who died in World War Two.
In addition, our research has shown another thirteen casualties who had links with the Village but are not named on it's War Memorial.
I would be happy to share any of the information we have found to date on any of these individuals with anyone researching these families. Of course, if anyone does have links with any of those named and would be able to let us know anything further on their pre War lives, or Military Service, then I would be delighted to hear from them.
The Casualties Named are :
1914 -18
Frederick ANDREWS
Percy ANDREWS
Frederick George ARMSTRONG
Ernest BALDWIN
Lawrence Alfred Howard BARROW
Frederick BATCHELOR
Horace BATCHELOR
Spencer CAIN
Frederick William CLARK
Percy CLARK
Leonard COOK
Leonard COOTE
Stanley COOTE
William COOT
Frederick David CURL
Horace DAY
Percy DRAPER
Joshua DYER
John FEATUM (or FEETHAM)
James FENSOM
Alfred FLITTON
Arthur FLITTON
George FLITTON
George William FLITTON
William FLITTON
Frederick GINGER
William GINGER
Horace GODFREY
Percy GODFREY
Edgar HARRIS
Horace HARRIS
Percy IMPEY
Laurence Frederick JACKSON
George KITCHENER
Arthur LEE
Elijah PEACOCK
Charles PEDDAR
Harry PEDDAR
Dennis RILEY
Walter ROBINSON
Jack SILVESTER
William SMITH
William SOUSTER
Ernest William STEVENS
Jack WHITE
1939 - 45
Albert George BANDY
Douglas Arthur BATCHELOR
Frederick Charles HARVEY
Leslie John HORWOOD
Gleister Leslie MORTON
Allan Lane TUCKEY
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Hi
Welcome to this board.
We should never forget the sacrifices made by these men and their families so I wish you and your team all the very best.
I have been researching my husbands family in Flamstead as his gr grandparents Arthur and Eliza Chapman nee Seymour ran the Three Blackbirds PH there at the end of the 19th C but at the moment cannot find any links to your names as yet!!!!!!!
Again, I wish you all the very best.
Regards
Half Pint
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Hi Half Pint,
Many thanks for that.
I'm pleased to say that we have been able to establish quite a lot in the past year and a half, since we began this project - but we are always pleased to learn more and look for ways to widen the search.
One of our aims has been to record the human cost of the conflict within the village itself - looking at, amongst other things, the families who lost two or three sons. Those that were wounded and came back home only to die later. Those who are even buried in the Village Graveyard with no headstone to mark their final resting places.
You might struggle to believe it but we even have one name on the War Memorial (Leslie John HORWOOD), who died in WW2, who we can find no definite record of. Even the recollections of the older village inhabitants seem to differ greatly on what happened to him.
So there is still much to do .....
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Hi,
Some thoughts about Leslie John HORWOOD,
Marriage
Albert Edward HORWOOD Mar Q 1907 Luton 3b 593
Edith Jane JEFFS with same details.
Birth
Leslie J HORWOOD Jun Q 1921 Newport Pagnell 3a 1908
Mother's Maiden Surname: JEFFS
Leslie John HORWOOD
Birth Date: 27 Mar 1921
Christening Date: 10 Jul 1921
Christening Place: Woughton On The Green, Buckinghamshire
Age at Christening: 0
Father's Name: Albert Edward HORWOOD
Mother's Name: Edith Jane
Woughton on the Green is about 19 miles from Flamstead, could the family have moved there later?
Death
Leslie J HORWOOD age: 23 Jun Q 1944 Ware 3a 1039
I can't find another Leslie J HORWOOD birth that would fit this death, maybe he came home and then died., or maybe he had a reserved occupation and was a member of the Home Guard :-\
Regards
Daisy
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Searching FreeBMD for HORWOOD with mother's maiden name JEFFS gives six between 1913 and 1930. The first four registered in Newport Pagnell, the last two at Hemel Hempstead (which include Flamstead).
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Hi Daisypetal and StevenG,
Very many thanks for the information you have each kindly sent.
Upto my registering our enquiry on the website two days ago, we had only noted the following :
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Leslie John Horwood
Commonwealth War Graves Website : No apparent matches
Soldiers Died In WW2 CD-ROM : No apparent matches
Register Of Births, Deaths and Marriages – Watford District
Q4 1914 - Births
Horwood Leslie J Mothers Maiden Name : Picton
OR
Register Of Births, Deaths and Marriages – Newport Pagnall District
Q2 1921 - Births
Horwood Leslie J Mothers Maiden Name : Jeffs
OR
Register Of Births, Deaths and Marriages – Watford District
Q3 1922 - Births
Horwood Leslie Mothers Maiden Name : Jeffrey
England & Wales Christening Records (1530 – 1906)
Leslie John Horwood Christened 10 July 1921 at Woughton on the Green, Bucks
Born 27 March 1921
Fathers Name Albert Edward Horwood
Mothers Name Edith Jane
Parish Records for the Flamstead village cemetery show no HORWOOD’s in there.
Notes : According to one of the older village residents still living (born 1922) Les was a Private in the 7th or 8th Battalions of the Hertfordshire Regiment. He would have been born about 1921 or 1922 and he went to Cheveralls Green School. He was born in Flamstead. He has a Sister buried in God’s Acre. He was captured by the Japanese at Singapore and died as a Prisoner Of War when he was smashed by a Rogue Elephant.
Notes : A separate Web Search has revealed that Singapore surrendered to Japanese forces on 15th February 1942 and that the 5th Bn Beds & Herts Regiment were there then.
St Leonards Parish Records (Flamstead)
Dennis Albert Horwood was born 8 November 1927 and baptised 9 April 1929, son of Albert Edward and Edith Jane Horwood of The Kennels, Beechwood, Flamstead where Albert Edward was the Game Keeper.
Kenneth Reginald Herbert Horwood was born 28 November 1930 and baptised 21 June 1931, son of Albert Edward and Edith Jane Horwood of The Kennels, Beechwood, Flamstead where Albert Edward was the Game Keeper.
England & Wales Birth Index 1916 – 2005
Joan E M Horwood
Mother’s Maiden Name : Jeffs
Registered : Q3 1924
Registration District : Newport Pagnall
Also
Harry F J Horwood
Mother’s Maiden Name : Jeffs
Registered : Q1 1918
Registration District : Newport Pagnall
Also
Denis A Horwood
Mother’s Maiden Name : Jeffs
Registered : Q4 1927
Registration District : Hemel Hempstead
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As you will see - it looks as though we all three believe that this family came from the Newport Pagnell area before moving to Flamstead and that Leslie John HORWOOD was christened in Woughton on the Green on 10th July 1921.
This is pretty much confirmed by the St Leonard's (Flamstead) Parish Registers showing the names of the parents of Dennis Albert HORWOOD and Kenneth Reginald Herbert HORWOOD. So long as we assume this is the only HORWOOD family in the area.
Therefore, based upon the years of birth it would suggest that Albert Edward and Edith Jane HORWOOD brought their family from Newport Pagnell to Flamstead between 1924 and 1927.
The real difficulty with all of this is that there is no record with the Commonwealth War Graves Commision or on the Soldiers Died In WW2 CD-ROM (at the local studies library) to record the death of Leslie John HORWOOD - despite his name being clearly carved on the village War Memorial. I even tried the Archivist at the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regimental Museum who could find no record of a Leslie John HORWOOD serving with any Battalions of the Regiment
I'm beginning to think that the sixty year old reminisences of one of the villagers I spoke to (a D Day veteran who has lived in the village since his birth in 1922) may be wrong and that it was another man who was killed while a POW in the Far East.
But ...... what did Mr HORWOOD do to warrant putting his name on the memorial but not be on the CWGC website.
I think that the next thing to do is to try and get a hold of the Death Certificate that Daisy mentioned to see what that says.
"Death
Leslie J HORWOOD age: 23 Jun Q 1944 Ware 3a 1039"
There is an outside chance that this could be the Leslie HORWOOD whose Mother's Maiden Name was Jeffrey and whose birth was registered Q3 1922 in Watford District - but the year and the lack of the middle initial J suggest it isn't.
I shall be very interested to see how Mr Leslie J HORWOOD died in Ware in 1944 and am excited to receive this information that I didn't previously have. I also note, and it is just an observation, that June 1944 was the invasion of Normandy (although that may be completely irrelevant).
Again, many thanks for your kind help and information.
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Hi,
Please let us know how you get on :)
Daisy
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"Gods Acre"
What a wonderful name for a cemetery
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Hi Daisy,
Just a quick question for you - if I may.
I would be really interested to hear where you found out about the Death Registration in Ware in 1944.
I only ask, because I hadn't found any reference to this in the past year and a half of research and wondered if there was a source you are using that I should consider using in future.
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Hi,
I used findmypast.com, after I couldn't find him in the military records I did a page by page search for his death 1939-1944.
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thanks for that - it's not a website that I have used before but I will now certainly add it to my favourites in the hope that it might help with other future enquiries.
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Hi Daisy,
I'm pleased to say that the Death Certificate for Leslie John HORWOOD arrived in this morning's post and, as you had requested an update, then I thought you might be interested in what it says :
Name : Leslie John HORWOOD
Died : 22nd April 1944 at the County Sanatorium, Ware Park, Ware R.D
Sex : Male
Age : 23 Years
Occupation : Gardener of Gardeners Cottage, Beechwood Park, Markyate, St Albans
Cause Of Death : 1a. Pulmonary Tuberculosis Certified by H Sharpe MRCS LRCP
Informant : G H Horwood, Sister, Gardeners Cottage, Beechwood Park, Markyate, St Albans
Registered : 24th April 1944
Registrar : M E D Smith (Interim Registrar)
After some investigation this morning I identified that the Leslie John HORWOOD I have been "following" had a sister called Gladys Hester HORWOOD who was born in Woughton on the Green, Bucks on 14th September 1913. It is most likley that it is she that is the informant of death.
As an aside, there is also a small hand written comment in the right hand column on the Death Certificate that appears to have the three letter word (or partial word) "Ont" in it. I have no idea what, if anything this might mean - it could well be nothing.
So, with your help, I'm confident that my search is now further forward but I just can't seem to work out why he should be named on the Flamstead Village War Memorial. It is clear that he died during WW2 but of TB and his occupation would appear to have been a Gardener where I would have expected to have seen the words serviceman.
So, I'm off to ponder on this one a little bit.
I'm confident though that, without your help, I wouldn't have got this far and one day it will all make perfect sense.
Simon
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Hi Gooders,
I believe Dennis Riley listed on the war memorial to be my fathers, mothers, brother!.
He was born in 1887 and had occupation of an agricultural labourer.
I got this information from the 1901 census.
Any information you find would be very interesting as I have only just started looking into my family tree.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Many thanks for getting in touch.
Please leave it with me for a day or two and I will dig out what I have on this man and send it to you.
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Thank you very much Gooders, what a lot of information to sift through. Will give me hours of pleasure. Shows me what can be found and what a true beginner I am. My sister has also started to look up family history, she will also be excited with what you have found out.
I see that the Head Warden and the Head Server at St.Leonards church, Flamstead are both Riley's.
Thank's again and keep up the good work.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave,
No problem - to be honest, that is what this project is all about - aiding us all to remember these men who paid the ultimate sacrifice.
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1914 -18
Joshua DYER
Hello there Joshua is my great grand uncle I have been looking up my family tree and know quite alot about him before joining the army. He means alot to me and i would appreciate any thing you could tell me about him as i have not been able to find war details on him any help would be great :)
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As regards the death certificate of Leslie Horwood it is difficult to see how a 23 year old gardener could have escaped conscription that late in the war when the forces were so short of manpower. Perhaps his illness caused him to be invalided out and he took up the job of gardner then? One source might be his service record but not knowing which service he might have been in is a major obstacle.
Imber
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Hi,
I wonder if you have seen this site?
http://flamsteadpc.btck.co.uk/Documents/FlamsteadWarMemorial
It shows that Leslie John HORWOOD was in the Royal Artillery and died April 1944 which would fit with the death already found. It also has a little write up about Joshua Dyer a Lance Corporal in the 2nd Battalion the Royal Sussex Regiment.
Ancestry also has some info about Joshua,
Name: Joshua Dyer
POB: Flampstead, Hertfordshire
DOD: 22 Sep 1916
Death Location: Home
Enlistment Location: Luton
Rank: L/Corporal
Regiment: Royal Sussex Regiment
Battalion: 2nd Battalion
Number: G/14527
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Home
You can request service records of deceased Service personnel here, for a fee,
https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
It might be easier now you know who they served with.
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi TallaNicholex,
Thanks for contacting me about your Great Great Uncle, Joshua Dyer. I do, indeed, have more information on this casualty and would be very happy to share it with you.
I will shortly send you a Personal Message, on here, so that we can establish direct contact.
Regards,
Simon
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Hi Imber and Daisypetal,
Many thanks for sharing with me these thoughts and information you have found on the web.
In the last couple of years some of my research has paid off and I met an elderly lady who remembered seeing Leslie John Horwood in the uniform of the Royal Artillery at a Flamstead village event during WW2. So, it now appears as though he had joined up but must, pretty soon thereafter, have been invalided out with the TB that eventually killed him. At least that is what all the clues point to having happened. I even found a local newspaper article (Hemel Hempstead Gazette 22 April 1944) from the time confirming much of this.
On Daisypetals comment about information on the website she found I have to admit that I think that is an outstanding website and obviously a work of great skill and knowledge - but then again (says I - strongly tongue in cheek) I would say that wouldn't I as I am the individual that created it. ;)
So, yes, that website is one of the ways in which I have been circulating some of the basic information i have collected in the hope it might be found by others researching the Flamstead names.
Thanks, once again, to the both of you.
Simon
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Hello,
I'm rather new to this but stumbled upon your useful 1901 census listing of Kitcheners at Flamstead. I believe you asked if anyone knew anything of them...I know a little.
George Kitchener was head of the household at that time and had been Coachman to the Duchess of Teck, the family being domiciled at White Lodge Richmond - he was my great grandfather. His daughter, my grandmother Grace Kitchener, with her sisters helped their mother who became widowed (I think not long afterwards). The boys George and Fred were both killed in the First World War and I found George's grave at Bienvillers Northern France, last Autumn.
All the sisters lived to good ages...all past 90 I think, certainly my grandmother who by then had moved to the Titsey estate in Surrey was pushing 100 when she passed away.
Interestingly we believe that George Kitchener (the elder) was an Irish Catholic who changed his name, and buried his faith in order to gain employment in England.
That's about all I know.
Regards
Jon Dudley
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Hi Jon,
It's great to hear from you and it is, yet again, a wonderful example of the power of the internet to connect people following similar lines of research.
I do have more information on your Great Grandfather that i would be very happy to share with you but, rather than post it on this site, will send you a Personal Message in the hope we can then contact each other directly.
I will need to check my notes, which are at home, but i think your Great Grandfather may well be buried in the Flamstead Cemetery.
Simon